Talk:Eden Golan

The origin of the singer

Eden was born in Israel, moved to Russia and returned to Israel. In my opinion, it should be written that she is Israeli and not Russian-Israeli. If we also refer to Eden's words, she considers herself Israeli and nothing else. KatzeChat (talk) 05:45, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

She was born in Israel and she was also partly raised in Israel and she has an Israeli passport.

Many Israelis parents aren't from Israel but nobody is writing that we are from Poland or Germany or Romania or Iraq or Iran or North Africa.

Also her parents are from Latvia and Ukraine not from Russia. 2A0E:427:1CA7:0:4570:D2CE:E849:6D76 (talk) 16:02, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Origin of singer is Israel. 97.113.214.203 (talk) 16:32, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

please read the previous discussion and provide arguments and sources to support your claims.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 22:31, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

here is one of many links to an artist article without a meaningless and unhelpful "origin" destination. Remove it

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars_Ulrich FerranValls (talk) 21:50, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Origin is not an attribute specific to any other singer on Wikipedia. Wikipedia, wake up! You are being controlled by a racist mob that is trying to portray the message that Israelis are not native to their land. Idansc (talk) 04:38, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Pretty much every singer who moved between birth and becoming famous has their origin listed:

• Taylor Swift - born Pennsylvania, origin Nashville
• Kanye West - born Atlanta, origin Chicago
• Eminem - born Missouri, origin Detroit
• Travis Scott - born Houston, origin Missouri City
• Post Malone - born Syracuse, origin Los Angeles

Jamedeus (talk) 05:42, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Those are all in USA. Can you show example of someome born in USA move to Russia come back to USA and origin shows Russia?

Take it off. 147.235.215.18 (talk) 06:41, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm removing it. SlapperDapper (talk) 14:51, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

All are under the section “musical career”, since it’s not about their origin but the musical career’s origin. Stating that these are the origins of the people themselves, not under “musical career” section, would be clearly not true. 2A10:8012:11:3CD7:7C10:BD63:5D81:7368 (talk) 14:54, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

In all those examples, "Origin" appears as part of the "Musical career" section, which is not present in this page. Zlmark (talk) 14:57, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Eden has explicitly refuted these claims in a detailed interview with Mako (dated 02/02/2024, translated from Hebrew), stating unequivocally:

"Some write that I'm not Israeli enough, that I'm Russian and all kinds of things like that, but I'm the most Israeli there is. My whole family is here, we made sure about the holidays, we went to a Chabad house and visited Israel several times a year. We always knew we would return to Israel, there was no doubt, the matter was when. Because of these reactions there is a feeling that I need to prove my Israeliness, even though there is nothing to prove - I am the most Israeli there is." ... "Even with my name, people always had a problem. It's the most Israeli name. Maybe if they called me Masha they would treat me differently, but there was always this part that I'm 'Eden Golan', I'm not Russian and I'm not part of them, I'm Israeli. I was It's foreign there. Anti-Semitism increased the desire to return to Israel."[1]

- Gardenchef19 (talk) 04:31, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Artist's Nationality

If someone temporarily relocating to other country, and studying in an International school, does it give him/her another nationality although she/he has no connection to the country except temporarily living there for 5 years without citizenship? אלעד נעמתי (talk) 13:04, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

@אלעד נעמתי: The issue here is you are not being truthful to the description of Golan's situation. Regardless of how long Golan resided in Russia (your claim that it was just five years is also untrue, as the article itself says she lived there for 13 years), her education, or her citizenship, Golan began her career by participating in Russian television programs, attempted to represent Russia in an international event, and did not relocate to Israel until 7 years after beginning her professional music career (in Russia). Per WP:MOS/LEAD, the lead should reference the "context" of the subject of the article, but this is not defined by simple citizenship or anything of the like, and Golan's Russian background is clearly relevant as it was the central location of her career up until 2022. To provide an example, Rina Sawayama mentions both Japanese and British nationalities in the lede as she holds solely Japanese citizenship but has a career based in the United Kingdom, and both nationalities were equally relevant to her context as an individual regardless of her citizenship status. All this points to Golan being properly cited as a Russian-Israeli individual. To me, the reluctance to identify Golan as Russian purely stems from her birth in Israel and the fact she is representing Israel at an event, but that does not outweigh the evidence pointing to Russian-Israeli being the proper identifier. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 02:08, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

You can't decide she's Russian if she didn't say she is. you don't know her Zapmufins (talk) 04:24, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

In a detailed interview with Mako (dated 02/02/2024, translated from Hebrew), Eden forcefully rejected such claims, stating,

"Some write that I'm not Israeli enough, that I'm Russian and all kinds of things like that, but I'm the most Israeli there is ..." She added, "Even with my name, people always had a problem. It's the most Israeli name. Maybe if they called me Masha they would treat me differently, but there was always this part that 'I'm 'Eden Golan', I'm not Russian and I'm not part of them, I'm Israeli.'"[2]

This unequivocally confirms her exclusive self-identification as Israeli and not Russian or Israeli-Russian. Gardenchef19 (talk) 04:41, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Jjj1238 is correct. Citizenship has nothing to do with this. She started her career as a Russian singer in Russia, representing Russia at music competitions. She spent most of her childhood in Russia (the country both her parents hailed from as well) and just recently moved to Israel, after a years-long career as a singer in Russia. She is clearly Russian-Israeli, not just Israeli. --Tataral (talk) 21:15, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

No, she is not "Russian-Israeli" or "Israeli-Russian." She explicitly stated in an interview that she is not Russian at all. "Some say I'm not Israeli enough and call me Russian, but I'm the most Israeli there is," Eden stated. She emphasized, "... there was always this part that 'I'm 'Eden Golan', I'm not Russian and I'm not part of them, I'm Israeli." [3] Gardenchef19 (talk) 04:45, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

If you say that Eden Golan is Russian why do you write that Bryan Adams is Canadian.

He lived most of his youth outside of Canada just like Eden, due to his parents career. 2A0E:427:1CA7:0:4570:D2CE:E849:6D76 (talk) 16:05, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Delete her origin

Her origin can't be Russian if she was born in israel and the descents of her parents are not Russian Zapmufins (talk) 04:18, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

@Zapmufins The article is sufficiently clear that her career began while she was living in Moscow. In that regard, her origin—where she started her career—is Russia. —C.Fred (talk) 04:20, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

That is not the meaning of origin, this is not where she's from Zapmufins (talk) 07:42, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

and yeah those details about where she started her career are clear so why lie that that's where she also originates from as a person Zapmufins (talk) 07:45, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Per Template:Infobox musical artist, The town, city etc., from which the group or musician originated (that is, the place where the group was founded, or where the individual performer started their career, should it not match the location of their birth). Moscow is accurate. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 10:02, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

a career ? It’s just a singing competition. No body knew her and this is not what origin means, should people guess what it means? And once again someone charged her nationality to Russian israel even though she’s not Russian. It’s really funny the vandalizers locked this page Zapmufins (talk) 03:23, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

The first references in the article to professional singing activity -- not explicitly for kids/amateurs -- are Israeli ones. The article does not demonstrate a career origin in Russia. In any case, the "origin" field is often omitted, easily misinterpreted, and rather uninteresting for an info box. 78.80.172.184 (talk) 22:59, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

To be fair, the origin only is applied to bands. Solo artists don't have an origin field. Check Dua Lipa, Miley Cyrus, Liam Gallagher, Elton John, etc. @Ser!. Bands like Oasis, The Beatles, or The Rolling Stones have an origin field. It is confusing and misleading to have origin when talking about a person, it needs more clarity and/or remove that field from this post to imitate single musicians publications. 2A02:3103:23B4:2600:70E1:FC2F:4EB2:61B3 (talk) 23:35, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Both her parents are originally from the Soviet Union, who also chose to return to their native Russia with their children when she was very young. She grew up mostly in Russia and she was active as a Russian singer for many years, also representing Russia at music competitions, before moving to Israel only two years ago. If anything, she is far more Russian than Israeli, but Russian-Israeli seems like a fair compromise. --Tataral (talk) 21:19, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

You’re going to be reported as a crazy Russian nationalist. She’s not Russian 83.130.42.7 (talk) 02:35, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Please focus on the content, not the contributors. Solid reasons, backed up in Wikipedia policies and guidelines, have been given for why Golan should be identified as Russian or part-Russian. —C.Fred (talk) 13:19, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

The contributors are anti semites who have decided to suddenly change the rules for how to describe human beings.

They also apparently have no idea what an immigrant is. 2601:98A:4300:4C1:B0B9:ACA7:1CCF:2F44 (talk) 03:03, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Her father is from Latvia and her mother is from Ukraine. Neither are part of Russia, yes they were part of its predecessor state, the Soviet Union, but that was before she was born. It's unclear whether her parents held Russian citizenship. To me the most relevant factor is if she holds Russian citizenship. RM (Be my friend) 18:44, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

That is not accurate. Her grandfather Yuri lived and worked in Moscow during the Cold War. It seems evident that at least one of her parents would have lived (been born, grown up) there too. Sources mention family roots in what is now the sovereign states of Latvia and Ukraine, but that was long before she was born. Both were part of the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union, and part of the Soviet Union when her family emigrated from the Soviet Union to Israel. Russia considers itself as the successor state of the Soviet Union. Perhaps she has some great-grandparents or great-great-grandparents from Latvia and Ukraine in what was then the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union, but that doesn't change anything. Her parents chose to return to Moscow, Russia, not Latvia. She spent 13 years, most of her childhood in Moscow, Russia, not Latvia. For all practical purposes she is a Russian singer who moved to Israel two years ago and who has just gotten noticed as a singer in Israel, after a years-long career in Russia. --Tataral (talk) 14:46, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Both of Frank Sinatra's parents were born in Italy. Should he also have an "origin" listed? Ocschwar (talk) 00:05, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

In this interview in Hewbrew Golan claims that she did feel russian while living in russia... (I user Google Translate to read the interview). So that Wikipedia now claims she is fully russsian-Israeli when we have no idea if she or her parents ever had russian passports is truly not correctly following Wikipedia guidelines. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 16:28, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

I just changed the lead to "Israeli singer who grew up in Russia" since we are now only truly sure of that. Hopefully future interviews will share more light on her early life and nationally. Although she is more likely to be questioned about the current Israeli invasion of Gaza. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 16:46, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

The article you linked to claims nothing of the sort, but the other way around.

I read it in Hebrew, not in google translate that does crappy job sometimes. Noavic (talk) 15:15, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

She never said that in the article you linked. She said exactly the opposite. She said she's as Israeli as it gets, that she's not Russian and is not a part of them, and that she felt foreign while living there. 2A0D:6FC2:45E3:4800:ACEA:B9B8:B64E:E519 (talk) 17:30, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with your conclusion RM. But that her father was born in what is now independent Latvia and her mother was born in what is now independent Ukraine tells me nothing.... Her parents were born when both Latvia and Ukraine were part of the Soviet Union and it is very possible they referred to themselves as Soviet Jews or russian Jews as at the time of their youth that was common. They might still refer to themselves as Soviet Jews or russian Jews today... Here parents might felt that they were Soviet people who very likely never had Latvian citizenship nor Ukrainian citizens and if her mother had some sympathy for Ukrainian nationalism she probably would have prevented her daughter to perform in 2016 in illegal russian occupied (Ukrainian territory) Crimea. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 17:04, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

There is absolutely no evidence that her parents were born in Latvia or Ukraine (then-Soviet Union). Considering how her grandfather Yuri studied, worked and lived in Moscow, it seems highly unrealistic. At least one of her parents must have had a connection to Moscow, likely being born or at least raised there. Her parents also chose to return to Moscow in the 2000s. --Tataral (talk) 14:52, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

While I agree that there are no sources confirming the origin of her parents (I'm not sure how Latvian-Jewish and Ukrainian-Jewish made its way in there, I am removing it now), a grandfather working and living in Moscow during the time of the Soviet Union would not be out of the ordinary for someone from one of the other Soviet republics. It was still one country after all, and many people (especially Jews) from other republics were Russian-speaking on either a native or L2 basis. Also regardless of her parents' place of birth, their origins could have still come from Latvia/Ukraine. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 15:58, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Change origin

Why does it say Russian if her parents are not Russian? I didn’t know living in Russia for a few years will make you Russian. She was born in Israel, she’s an Israeli citizen, and she feels Israeli. She’s an Israeli singer, not Russian. 2600:1700:400D:F400:D8C1:72D7:8A2E:690A (talk) 16:45, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

She began her career in Moscow, per Template:Infobox musical artist, origin is for "The town, city etc., from which the group or musician originated (that is, the place where the group was founded, or where the individual performer started their career, should it not match the location of their birth)." Her origin is Moscow. Your claim that her parents "are not Russian" is also misleading at best as both are from the former USSR and her grandfather lived and worked in Moscow. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 16:53, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

That’s ridiculous. Eden is an Israeli, wherever she started her career doesn’t change her ethnicity. Just like Rihanna isn’t an American though she started her career in the US. She Barbadian.

Her parents are Ukrainian and Latvian. People from the former USSR are not necessarily Russian. Even the Russian page states she’s an Israeli singer. You are very bias. 2600:1700:400D:F400:D8C1:72D7:8A2E:690A (talk) 17:37, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Where was Bob Dylan born? And where did he begin his career?

Answer 1: Dulith, Minnesota.

Answer 2: New York City.

Go check his Wikipedia page, see what the Wikipedia editors have decided is the correct information.

Can we stop acting like we aren’t creating double standards for Jews? Like there isn’t a profound problem of antisemitism among Wikipedia editors and moderators? It’s disgusting and shameful. KronosAlight (talk) 22:36, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I am Barak. Most of my edits are in the Hebrew Wikipedia. Golan's mother called me. She told me that her daughter, Eden, was born and raised as an Israeli. She is not Russian. Her parents are Russian, but she isn’t. Barak a (talk) 15:30, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm afraid we can't use off-wiki information as confirmation, but I'll wait for others more in-the-know than me in terms of the guidance on what terminology to use in the lede. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 18:30, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

She was born in Israel! Her parents are from Ukraine and Latvia! There is no Russia here, although she lived in Moscow. Barak a (talk) 20:56, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

@Barak a: This is not the Hebrew Wikipedia. Here, per WP:V, All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists, and captions, must be verifiable. All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material..

@Ser!: Per Gil Mishali's (he) article on Keshet Media Group's Mako (website), Golan's parents are of Ukrainian and Latvian origin.

CLalgo, So give me a proof that she is Russian. You wrote that her parents are from Ukraine and Latvia. There is no Russian roots in her family. Barak a (talk) 15:59, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@Barak a: I didn't claim Golan is Russian and under no obligation to provide proof of that. You've claimed that Golan's parents are from Ukraine and Latvia and I've provided an article stating this fact, following WP:V. Unlike the Hebrew Wikipedia, here every statement must be verifiable. And no, WP:BECAUSEISAIDSO isn't a reliable source. I was on your side in this discussion, but please follow the WP:TALK guidelines. CLalgo (talk) 11:36, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

CLalgo, here is your source: 1. In this article Eden claims that she is not Russian, and she is a proud Israeli woman. Now, you can change this article. "I'm not Russian and not part of them, I'm an Israeli". Barak a (talk) 16:50, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

I provided the source in order to build Consensus for such an edit. CLalgo (talk) 09:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

I read that article, sadly I don't speak Hebrew so it was machine translated. I couldn't find the sentence that says "I'm not Russian and not part of them, I'm an Israeli". The closest I could find was:

חלק כותבים שאני לא ישראלית מספיק, שאני רוסייה וכל מיני דברים כאלה, אבל אני הכי ישראלית שיש.

Which google translate turned into:

Some write that I'm not Israeli enough, that I'm Russian and all kinds of things like that, but I'm the most Israeli there is.

Which doesn't necessarily disprove what was written. Could you give the exact quote in the original language, since machine translations aren't always the best.

Speederzzz (talk) 09:50, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

@Speederzzz: The Hebrew quote is:

"אפילו עם השם שלי תמיד הייתה לאנשים בעיה. זה השם הכי ישראלי. אולי אם היו קוראים לי מאשה היו מתייחסים אלי אחרת, אבל תמיד היה את הקטע הזה שאני 'עדן גולן', אני לא רוסייה ואני לא חלק מהם, אני ישראלית. הייתי זרה שם. האנטישמיות הגבירה את החשק לחזור לישראל".

That machine translates to:

"Even with my name, people always had a problem. It's the most Israeli name. Maybe if they called me Masha they would treat me differently, but there was always this part that I'm 'Eden Golan', I'm not Russian and I'm not part of them, I'm Israeli. I was It's foreign there. Anti-Semitism increased the desire to return to Israel."

CLalgo (talk) 10:26, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks!

Speederzzz (talk) 10:28, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks CLalgo. Now, we can change it? I don't know the rules in the English Wikipedia. Barak a (talk) 10:47, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Again, none of this is relevant. Her career began in Russia, she attempted to represent Russia at an international event, she lived in Russia for the majority of her life, that is the basis of inclusion, not a comment saying she identifies as Israeli in the aftermath of being chosen to represent Israel at an international event. Nobody is calling her a "Russian singer," but she should not be called an "Israeli singer" either --- she is both. I am sensing a lot of nationalist editing which does not adhere to Wikipedia's policy that all editors maintain a neutral point of view. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 21:29, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you. I think that we should write the article like this: Eden Golan (Hebrew: עדן גולן; Russian: Эден Голан; born 5 October 2003) is an Israeli singer, who raised and started her career in Russia. Just like you said, she is not Russian, she just started her career there. And just for your knowledge, the article I shared above was written before she won the israeli selection. Barak a (talk) 21:57, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I also said she is not Israeli, she is Russian-Israeli. The current layout correctly articulates the situation and is in line with Wikipedia policies. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 21:58, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Policies that you only decided to conveniently enforce now. 2601:98A:4300:4C1:B0B9:ACA7:1CCF:2F44 (talk) 03:05, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Jjj1238, But she said by herself that she is not Russian (before ahe even selected to represent Israel in the Eurovision Song Contect 2024). You can't write that she is Russian. I think that what I suggested is an adequate solution for this issue. In this talk page only you disagree. @CLalgo and @Speederzzz agree with me. Barak a (talk) 22:03, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

This discussion was not just initiated on March 3. Scroll up on the talk page and you will see it has been discussed two other times and both times ended with the status quo remaining. It is a similar situation as Rina Sawayama, choosing to erase Golan's Russian background conflicts with anti-nationalist editing guidelines which including promoting ideas that "Famous person is or is not a member of group." From my perspective, it appears that several users are attempting to erase Golan's Russian background because of Israeli nationalist sentiments. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 22:17, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@Jjj1238, You are very funny! scroll up and see what I wrote again: Eden Golan (Hebrew: עדן גולן; Russian: Эден Голан; born 5 October 2003) is an Israeli singer, who raised and started her career in Russia. I am not erasing her backgroung in Russia, so stop accuse me on nationalist editing. I want to find a compromise between us.Your example about Rina is not good. Her parents are Jappanese. Goln's parents are Ukrainian-Latvian. Barak a (talk) 22:23, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

You are erasing her background as a Russian-Israeli musician. "Russian-Israeli" is already a compromise, it highlights the two facets of her identity: where she began her career and lived for 12 years, versus where she lives now and has continued her career. Your proposal minimizes her connection to Russia when her connection to Israel was no more than a country of birth prior to just 2 years ago (and 7 years into her professional music career). This would be a different story if the bulk of her music career took place in Israel, but it did not, she has been based in Russia for the large majority of her career (and her life) and your proposal minimizes that. You also misinterpret the Rina Sawayama comparison: both artists were born somewhere (Japan or Israel) and then had their music careers largely based elsewhere for the bulk of their careers (UK or Russia) while maintaining citizenship of their birth country. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 22:27, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Eden Golan (Hebrew: עדן גולן; Russian: Эден Голан; born 5 October 2003) is an Israeli singer, who raised and started her career in Russia - What is wrong with this? It seems you are involving politics and your agendas about Israel to Wikipedia. Tell me what's wrong with my suggestion. Barak a (talk) 22:31, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Reread my response and you will have your answer. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 22:32, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

How many other musicians would you like to add an extra ‘Origins:’ section to that doesn’t currently exist? Any non-Jews? KronosAlight (talk) 22:39, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I want to make clear I don't necessarily agree with Barak. I just couldn't find the quote that was referred to, and as someone currently in academia, I always want to check sources whether I agree or disagree with a statement. I am a fairly inexperienced wikipedian, so I don't think my opinion should even matter much, since I do not know all the conventions and rules around this, unlike jjj, who seems much more knowledgeable on this.

I was mostly following this because I am a eurovision fan and like to look at the role nationalism plays in a competition that tries to, at least on the surface, be apolitical. I don't think you meant harm, but please do not use me to support or counter any point being made here.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 13:23, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

This is Wikipedia policy. You are not providing any argument that is in-line with policy. She began her career in Russia and first garnered notability through a career in Russia, and there is consensus to include this. Her place of birth or what country she is representing in Eurovision do not erase that. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 17:14, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@Jjj1238 I already gave you an example with Rihanna, which you ignored. “Rihanna is a Barbadian singer”. Not “American-Barbadian”, though she started her career in the US and lived there for most of her life.

The opening sentence of an artist on a Wikipedia page is known to describe the artist’s origin, not the country their career started.

I just think you’re conveniently using the excuse of “policies” for pages that you have a personal bias against, while ignoring valid points in this thread and accusing people of “ nationalist editing”. 2600:1700:400D:F400:5CF5:3156:E8F2:EB4 (talk) 03:04, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

There is no consensus to include this.

Mayve there is right now slight majority, but this far from consensus. ArmorredKnight (talk) 07:01, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@Jjj1238, there is no consensus to include this. It is very easy to see that there are many that object the inclusion.

You can claim a consensus based only on your perspective. ArmorredKnight (talk) 08:28, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Why are you inventing a new policy?

No other singer or musician anywhere on this website has this “Origin” category. But suddenly it appears when a Jew is involved.

What’s the agenda behind introducing this new category? KronosAlight (talk) 23:43, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

References

"There is no Russian roots in her family": What utter nonsense. She grew up in Russia more than she grew up in Israel, her grandfather studied, lived and worked in Moscow (which is also the city where she was raised). Her parents were born in the then-Soviet Union. Her family hails from from what was the Russian Empire until 1917. She started her career in Russia. Reliable sources describe her as Russian-Israeli.[4] The claim that she has no Russian connection is just patently false.

For all practical purposes she is a Russian singer who grew up in Russia to parents born in the Soviet Union with all their ancestry from the Soviet Union and the Russian Empire, and whose grandfather also lived in Moscow, who just recently moved to Israel. If we were to remove any nationality from the lead, it would not be her primary nationality as Russian. --Tataral (talk) 22:54, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Her primary nationality is Isreali. This is were she was born and this is the citizenship she has. she also currently lives in Israel. ArmorredKnight (talk) 07:50, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

just to make it clear, the soviet union is not Russia.

The soviet union includes other states like Ukraine. By the logic of Tataral all Ukrainians are russians because Ukraine was part of the soviet union 85.65.234.171 (talk) 08:03, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

You’re arbitrarily making up a new policy that has never applied to any other singer or artist anywhere on Wikipedia, just that this figure happens to be Jewish.

Why? KronosAlight (talk) 23:44, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

"Origin: Moscow Russia" makes absolutely no sense at all. Her origin is clearly Israel, if "origin" is to be specified at all. 2403:5808:D56:0:653C:9C88:9C6A:5D0 (talk) 00:12, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Crimea

The note regarding Crimea is confusing. It’s unclear what that has to do with Eden’s biography. 24.191.110.5 (talk) 15:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

The relevance is that she was performing in disputed territory. —C.Fred (talk) 00:39, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

she lived in Russia until 2022. her father still runs a business in annexed Crimea 2A02:8084:D002:ED80:900E:9AA:CFD:2356 (talk) 20:27, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

she lived in Russia until 2022. her father still runs a business in annexed Crimea 2A02:8084:D002:ED80:900E:9AA:CFD:2356 (talk) 20:28, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

You wrote your comment twice, but also: do you have reliable sources for that? Not sure if it is worth mentioning without RSs making a fuss about it (we as wiki editors can't just decide that it is important if nobody else thinks it is)

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 20:32, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Regardless of relevance, it's incorrect as far as I can see. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Wave_(competition) the competition was held in Sochi.

Reopen the nationality discussion, but more structured?

I see people have been editing back and forth on the inclusion of Russian-Israeli vs Israeli. There seems not to be a consensus on which should be added. Is it perhaps time to, instead of simply continuing the earlier discussions, put this question forward in a more structured manner and if that doesn't work escalate to an WP:RfC or some other form of conflict resolution.

I am still relatively new to this sort of conflict, so I try my best but I really appreciate feedback.

A proposal:

Option A Israeli

Option B Russian-Israeli

Option C 'Israeli and Russian' and put her citizenship as Israeli in the infobox (as per Rina Sawayama)

Option D Russian-Israeli and put her citizenship as Israeli

If others have any suggestions, please give them. I myself saw "Israeli who spend a large part of her youth in Russia' on dutch wikipedia, however I think that would fall under A, so I do not believe that should be a separate option.

I believe this should make discussion more structured and make future steps in conflict resolution easier. If more senior editors think I am doing something wrong, please tell me. I am genuinely interested in getting more into Wikipedia editing.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 07:53, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

"Israeli singer who raised and started her career in Russia. If I have to choose is A. Barak a (talk) 20:44, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

B per the arguments made by Jjj1238 (talk · contribs) in the previous section. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 21:25, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

A. Per MOS:ETHNICITY, "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, neither previous nationalities nor the country of birth should be mentioned in the opening paragraph unless relevant to the subject's notability". Russian is neither her ethnicity, nor her nationality, nor her birthplace, so the notability issue definitely doesn't stand here. 2A02:587:428B:5278:DCA6:B9D0:750D:6951 (talk) 21:39, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I would say that her origins as a Russian singer (as in a singer in Russia) is important to her story, seeing half of the "career" section is dedicated to it. Her performances in occupied Crimea are the second most controversial thing about her representing Israel in Eurovision (first of course being her song).

I am unsure if it is enough to call her Russian-Israeli or whether "Israeli who started her career in Russia" would be better, but notability/importance not a good argument against Russian-Israeli, in my opinion.

Also, I would recommend you making an account, since it seems your IP is shifting slightly, making it harder to keep track of your contributions. Plus you get to pick a nice username!

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 21:50, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Manual of style says nothing about career notability in an X country though. As I already said in history, it is thoroughly described in the main body the majority of her career took place in Russia, she is described as an Israeli expatriate in Russia in the categories section and I even compromised into leaving the Russian form of her name (though I'm against it). Calling her also Russian in the lead just because of the relevant backround is redundancy, the average reader can well understand all of her career and achievements in Russia from the aforementioned information. 2A02:587:428B:5278:DCA6:B9D0:750D:6951 (talk) 21:58, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

"The reader can ascertain this" doesn't really hold weight as an argument here, I'm sure your average reader can ascertain plenty of things but it doesn't impact their due-ness. As for your "compromise", it's not really a compromise if I can count five editors at minimum in favour of it and you're the only one supporting removal that I can see - that's just consensus outweighing your opinion. Removing where an artist began her career and lived for the majority of her life is not the right idea imo. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 22:08, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Your argument is explicitly ignoring MOS:ETHNICITY. She began her career in Russia, that is relevant. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 22:03, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

@{ [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } How am I ignoring it? I already said this section doesn't refer anything about notability in an X country unless relevant to ethnicity, nationality or birthplace. Once again, Russian is none of these to Golan, she was born in Israel to parents of Ukrainian and Latvian descent. That's it. 2A02:587:428B:5278:DCA6:B9D0:750D:6951 (talk) 22:12, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Looking through MOS:ETHNICITY, the Peter Lorre example seems to be closest to the current situation, where she began her career in Russia and moved (back) to Israel. The problem seems to be that I cannot find whether she has held both citizenships as Peter did. I found one blog that claims dual citizenship, but ofcourse blogs aren't RS. (and this could be a case of citogenenis based on the earlier Russian-Israeli form of the WP page)

Meanwhile Commons has her citizenship as Israeli https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Eden_Golan

I do see some people claiming she had dual citizenship, but those people do not seem reliable. Does anyone know how to check the citizenship status of people? We know her Israeli citizenship because that is a requirement for her participation in Eurovision, but can we learn if she ever received and/or lost a Russian citizenship?

The difficulty here comes from the fact she was born in Israel, then moved to Russia, got famous and then returned to Israel. This A->B->A does not occur often and thus is hard to find a comparison to. The closest I could find is Noa (singer) Who moved from Israel to the USA and then returned to Israel, however she only became famous after she returned to Israel, making the American part of her life not very relevant to her story (and thus rightly is described as Israeli). Anyone else have better examples we can look at?

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 07:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

B per everything I've said in this talk page ever before. Alternative being C. Really anything but A. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 22:04, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

A she is defiantly not a Russian singer in any meaningful way ArmorredKnight (talk) 06:41, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

C The relevant part of MOS:NATIONALITY is the example of Peter Lorre: This is an example of a person who established a career in Europe as a Hungarian, then emigrated to the United States and was naturalized and continued his career, and is thus known as both a Hungarian actor and as an American actor. The use of and again prevents the introduction of ethnicity or birth. The article makes a clear, and referenced (although this could perhaps be improved upon), case for her notability in Russia, and the numerous sources describing her as Russian-Israeli back this up further. Per this guideline, the article should say "Russian and Israeli" or "Israeli and Russian". There are no examples in the guideline for a hyphenated nationality. Whether or not she has dual citizenship does not matter, as the guideline also explicitly allows mention of multiple countries for someone with a career that spans a subject's emigration, which Golan clearly has. Irltoad (talk) 20:11, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Russian-Israeli is used on the page for Hurricane

During some source research I noticed the wikipedia page for Hurricane (Eden Golan song) uses Russian-Israeli to refer to Eden and links to Russians in Israel. While the link seems wrong to me, I thought it useful to notify people here on its use.

Perhaps we can use that talk page to get more eyes on this discussion?

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 16:29, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Link is wrongly used per MOS:OVERLINK and I've already subjected my thoughts on the Russian-Israeli, Israeli-Russian etc issue on the above discussion. It should normally get changed as well but I can't do it myself since the article is locked. 2A02:587:428B:5278:1422:9C6F:2505:283A (talk) 17:04, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, the page also seems to be about people born in Russia moving to Israel and then staying there, different from Eden. But it was more about: Should we come to a conclusion here, we should make the hurricane page conform.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 17:31, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

RSs on Use of Israeli vs Russian-Israeli

Because Wikipedia is all about reliable sources, I thought it would be good to see how the rest of the world refers to her. I did not include unreliable sources, because they add nothing to the discussion. The Daily Mail or the Mirror aren’t going to convince anyone of anything. It seems more sources refer to her as "Russian-Israeli" than only "Israeli". Many sources did include things like "The candidate from Israel" or "The Israeli representative in Eurovision" but I excluded these because they obviously point towards the country she represents in Eurovision instead of her nationality.

If I missed any articles, feel free to add.

Sources using Russian-Israeli

Link	Source	Reliability	Further notes
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/israel-eurovision-contestant-eden-golan-palestine-protests-svbr0cfb3	The Times	Generally Reliable
https://www.voanews.com/a/israel-threatens-eurovision-pull-out-if-entry-vetoed-/7501892.html	Voice of America	Generally Reliable
https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/03/12/israel-unveils-new-eurovision-entry-after-original-song-rejected/	PinkNews	Generally Reliable
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/4/israel-agrees-to-revise-lyrics-of-song-rejected-by-eurovision	Al-Jazeera	Generally Reliable	I consider it generally reliable , since I do not count Eden as being part of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict
https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/israel-revises-song-lyrics-to-avoid-disqualification-from-eurovision-dwyu0ik7	The Jewish Chronicle	Generally Reliable
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-eurovision-singer-eden-golan-upbeat-despite-scrutiny/	Times of Israel	Seems Reliable	Reliability disputed on charges of anti-semitism, but comes across as reliable on other topics: One Discussion. Also uses Israeli in another article
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/culture/article/2024/03/07/eurovision-accepts-israeli-entry-after-lyrics-edit_6596075_30.html	Le Monde	Seems Reliable	Not to be confused with the Generally Reliable Le Monde Diplomatique
https://www.barrons.com/news/israel-says-eurovision-accepts-new-entry-after-lyrics-edit-c011f6f8	Barron's	Seems Reliable	Discussion on reliability
https://www.euronews.com/culture/2024/05/02/eurovision-israel-contestant-eden-golan-warned-to-stay-in-her-hotel-room	EuroNews	Reliability Unknown	Partially funded by Hungarian state, connected to Orbáns government (known for restriction of freedom of the press)
https://www.newarab.com/news/israel-says-eurovision-accepts-new-entry-after-lyrics-edit	The New Arab	Reliability Unknown	Have an editorial policy but I do not know about their quality of work
https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/israels-eurovision-song-approved-after-lyrics-revision-191464	Hürriyet Daily News	Reliability Unknown	People seem to disagree on its reliability

Sources using Israeli

Link	Source	Reliability	Further notes
https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-796121	The Jerusalem Post	Seems Reliable	A discussion containing points on The Jerusalem Post
https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-eurovision-security-fears-malmos-jews-mute-celebrations-for-israels-eden-golan/	Times of Israel	Seems Reliable	Reliability disputed on charges of anti-semitism, but comes across as reliable on other topics: One Discussion. Also uses Russian-Israeli in another article
https://www.jns.org/eden-golan-touches-down-in-malmo-ahead-of-eurovision/	Jewish News Syndicate	Reliability Unknown	Some consider it reliable, some too biassed and/or too derivative. A discussion on its reliability

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 18:18, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia may be about reliable sources but still, even the most reliable ones are written by ordinary people like you and me. Russian obviously refers to her career in the country and as I already said multiple times above, the average reader can totally understand all of her career in Russia and that it began from this specific country. Take for instance Ava Max, she is referred in multiple sources as Albanian-American (some instances being these [5], [6]), yet she is described as simply American in the main article. Plus, MOS:ETHNICITY says hyphen is used only for ethnicity purposes, so saying Russian-Israel is misleading and can confuse the average reader about a possible Russian background of hers, which is not the case here. 2A02:587:428B:5278:1422:9C6F:2505:283A (talk) 00:01, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

"even the most reliable ones are written by ordinary people like you and me"

What do you mean with that? The whole idea of RSs is that we can trust them because they are written by journalists and checked by editors and such.

Plus, I doubt your interpretation of MOS:ETHNICITY (also known as MOS:NATIONALITY). I could not find anything that stated that hyphens are only for ethnicity. I do have dyslexia so it is possible that I missed it.

I think this part does give us a question to answer:

"The opening paragraph should usually provide context for that which made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory where the person is currently a national or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was such when they became notable."

Namely, do we consider her Russian career why she is most notable? Since she has only been living for just over 2 years in Israel again, you could say she is mainly a Russian singer (as in sing in Russia) who moved to Israel, to support this is the controversy about occupied Crimea which is a quite infamous part of her career. On the other hand one could fully and rationally argue that the only reason people are really interested in her is because of Eurovision. This page began as a redirect to Israel in Eurovision Song Contest 2024.

Besides nationality is an inherently vague concept. What makes someone from somewhere? I philosophically do not like the idea of ethnicity and nationality, because they are so vague and difficult to verify.

I just want to be clear that I am still unsure which side of this conflict I am on. Both sides have good points, but it seems we have 2 people that favor Russian-Israeli and two people that favor Israeli, so I just try to set forth information and argument for both sides so that I might come to a conclusion and possibly other people who want a perspective on these things.

P.S. Ava Max is a poor comparison (IMO) because of two factors. One being that she never lived in Albania, while Golan did live in Russia. And the second is the weird behavior of Americans around ethnicity. People who haven't lived in Italy for multiple generations call themselves "Italian-American". The thing that complicates this even more is that she calls herself "100% Albanian", which is the opposite of Eden who didn't feel connected to Russia. I think you can interpret this in two ways, either "Self stated connection/identification shouldn't be taken into account/should't dominate over other methods of detemination" or "Even someone who felt 100% Albanian wasn't called Albanian, so why should we call someone who didn't feel Russian, Russian-Israeli?"

I get you wanted to make a point about sources, but I think the difference between Ava and Eden is too great for this comparison to be helpful.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 08:25, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

I mean that since they are written by regular people, they often make mistakes. You said yourself you found sources you weren't 100% sure they were reliable above, besides the Ava Max example I mentioned. Regarding the MOS:ETHNICITY part, you were the one misinterprating, see the Arnold Schwarzenegger part. It explicitely says : "dual citizenship can be a political issue, so it is important to be clear and avoid ambiguity. The lead sentence here is not about ethnicity ("Austrian-American") or the country of birth ("Austrian-born American"), but rather about dual citizenship". I don't know if the Ava Max example is a good one but as I already said multiple times before, the average reader can totally understand from the rest of the text all of her achievements in Russia, the fact her musical career began from there and that she lived a significant part of her life there, she is described as an Israeli expatriate in Russia in the categories, in the infobox it is mentioned as well she started her career from Russia and I compromised into leaving the Russian form of her name, both in the infobox and in the lead, though I am against it. So why do we have to make it such a big issue since in 9 (not to say more) to 10 cases of Wikipedia articles, the lead is for nationality purposes and not for notability or other ones? 2A02:587:428B:5278:B43E:C45:434A:5924 (talk) 14:26, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

But there are articles that use "Russian-American" and are Generally Reliable, which is the highest tier of reliability on wikipedia. This is why I added the reliability rating, so that we can choose which level of reliability we are willing to accept. We cannot simply ignore them if we think they might be wrong.

On the MOS:NATIONALITY, you seem to be (intentionally or unintentionally, I do not know) cherry-picking what part of the sencence you find important. The whole sentence is:

"For a politician, dual citizenship can be a political issue, so it is important to be clear and avoid ambiguity. The lead sentence here is not about ethnicity ("Austrian-American") or the country of birth ("Austrian-born American"), but rather about dual citizenship."

It is clear that this is is about politicians with dual citizenship. In this case Eden is not a politician and we are unsure of her citizenship status. I find this example therefor inadequate.

The reason the argument is had is because it kept getting reverted, and thus needs consensus. I can't really argue on why to choose one over the other because I am still unsure. The way Dutch Wikipedia does it "Israeli singer who spend most of her youth in Russia." seems nice, but the fact Generally Reliable sources use Russian-Israeli does make me think of Verifiability, not truth. (Although that has it's own conflicts with it being an essay not actual policy)

Also, what you consider compromise is not really important, wikipedia isn't politics. You can't trade one phrasing for another.

But in order to actually solve the problem, do you think we should ask some people to voice their opinions on the matter? Perhaps WikiProject Eurovision can lend us a hand? I think they would be the only people interested in this. Should I just leave a comment on their Talk page? Or does anyone have a better idea on how to resolve this conflict?

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 18:46, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Might be an idea to let the WikiProject know on the talk page, yeah. I've not had a chance to read over the debate but it would be great to get some extra voices involved. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 18:52, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Good, then I'll ask them to take a look before I go to bed. It's late over here and I need some sleep for the great event tomorrow the national holiday in my country. (oops wrong date) It would be nice if we could solve this before the Finale, since that is when we will probably get the most views ever.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 21:02, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

You've put so much effort into this but missed a direct interview where Eden states the facts? Perhaps hearing it directly from her will settle this matter once and for all? she is not Russian-Israeli, Israeli-Russian, or Russian, she is Israeli. How much more explicit can she be?

"Some say I'm not Israeli enough and call me Russian, but I'm the most Israeli there is," She emphasized, "... there was always this part that 'I'm 'Eden Golan', I'm not Russian and I'm not part of them, I'm Israeli." [7] Gardenchef19 (talk) 04:52, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

This topic has come up before, and has been discussed on how to/if to put it in the article.

A similar case is Ava Max who has stated she sees herself as "100%" Albanian, yet is described as "American singer and songwriter".

(Note: In my original conversation about this I do note that there is a significant difference between Ava and Eden, being that Ava was born and raised in America, but has an Albanian background, while Eden was born in Israel, grew up and became famous in Russia and then returned to Israel later in life)

To quote myself: "I think you can interpret this in two ways, either "Self stated connection/identification shouldn't be taken into account/should't dominate over other methods of detemination" (sic) or "Even someone who felt 100% Albanian wasn't called Albanian, so why should we call someone who didn't feel Russian, Russian-Israeli?""

So, I consider the problem a bit more complicated than simply "she said X so we write X"

BTW the research I did was mostly into how english-language reliable sources talk about Eden, purely to see if it was slanted one way or another.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 08:21, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

@Speederzzz Then let's take into consideration the example just above on the specific guideline, which mentions :

The second example is someone who emigrated as a child and continued to identify as a citizen of their adopted country:

   Isaac Asimov (c. January 2, 1920 – April 6, 1992) was an American writer

       Per the above guidance, we do not add ethnicity ("Jewish-American") or country of birth ("Russian-born American"). These details can be introduced in the second sentence if they are of defining importance.

Per this guideline, Russian should be clearly ommited. And no, on the above instance I merely didn't see it was about politicans, you don't have to be so suspicious on every little thing. About the uncertainty of her citizenship status you mention, that's your own conclusion, sources call her Russian for all the aforementioned arguments mentioned in the conversation above, there hasn't been some indication of her having a relevant citizenship status. Regarding the compromise thing you mention, there is a guideline which i will post here, as soon as I find it, but regardless of this, why we should name her a Russian-Israeli singer AND include as well the Russian form of her name, as long as there are editors disagreeing? So the compromise thing is definitely not of zero importance here, quite the opposite I would say. 2A02:587:428B:5278:1CBA:12F6:E351:18FD (talk) 19:32, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Again, this example if different from our case. You highlight it yourself" "... continued to identify as a citizen of their adopted country." Unless you want to argue that she is natively Russian, which I don't think you do, this is a wholly different case. Asimov was born in Russia, moved to the USA, stayed there until his tragic death and always considered himself american. Golan was born in Israel, moved to Russia but didn't feel connected to the country, then returned to Israel.

I don't think both should be included just because people are arguing, I just simply stated that people are arguing about it because of this part of your reply: "So why do we have to make it such a big issue since in 9 (not to say more) to 10 cases of Wikipedia articles, the lead is for nationality purposes and not for notability or other ones?"

My intention was to say "It is a big issue because people disagree." You can argue that it shouldn't be one, which is fair, but the world sadly isn't this simple.

And I will stand firm on compromise: Wikipedia is build on consensus, not on deals and compromises. You can get consensus on a compromise position, but simply stating you have compromised on one thing does not guarantee inclusion on another point.

But perhaps it is possible to temporarily remove all mention of nationality from the lede until we have a consensus on what it should be. This way, we can perhaps prevent problems of Citogenesis (a secret fear I have on this topic, since I've seen some places word for word copy older versions of the wiki page)

P.S. Sorry if I felt attacking, English isn't my first language so perhaps there is a better word for unintentional cherrypicking that I do not know. I know cherrypicking often has a connotation of intentionality so I wanted to be clear that I did not want to presuppose your intentions. I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 21:01, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

the problem which saying that she is an Israeli Russian or Russian Israeli, is that most likely misleading the reader to think that her ethnicity or nationality is Russia. However this is not the case. 46.116.241.110 (talk) 07:06, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Its anti-semetic to refer to her “origi

When a Jewish person is the only one were you add an “origin” it’s racist.

No other celebrity has “origin” include. Quagmire5389 (talk) 00:33, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

See the thing is, the entire premise of your question is wrong. Pretty much most artists have an "origin" - Marcus & Martinus, Norwegian-born but representing Sweden this year, have their origin listed as Norway, where their career began. Nothing marginally racist about it. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 08:01, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Add "Musical career" header in infobox

Much of the debate about the "Origin" field in the infobox is based on a misunderstanding of what the field refers to. Other articles about solo artists which include the "Origin" field (e.g. Ice-T, Shania Twain) place it under a "Musical career" subheading, and following the same practice here may resolve some conflicts. 209.205.76.157 (talk) 02:37, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

I did this. This is the correct fix. Keeps the accurate info, doesn't imply something inaccurate and arguably anti-Semitic. Everyone should be happy now. Jbbdude (talk) 20:13, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 May 2024

The “origins” of a person being described as a place other than where they were literally born and live is shamelessly discriminatory.

Given the context of the subject in question, it is also disturbingly antisemitic.

Whoever added it has never heard of an immigrant before. 2601:98A:4300:4C1:B0B9:ACA7:1CCF:2F44 (talk) 03:00, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Her place of birth is clearly stated above. The origin field is for the place a musical artist started performing. From the template documentation:

The town, city etc., from which the group or musician originated (that is, the place where the group was founded, or where the individual performer started their career, should it not match the location of their birth).

Jamedeus (talk) 04:37, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

that The origin field is for the place a musical artist started performing is obvious only to wikipedia editors who checked the documentation of this template. That's a pure stupidity to mark an Israeli-born singer as "Russian" because she lived there for some time. Artem.G (talk) 11:00, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

"Non-Wikipedia users won't understand this" does not hold any weight and nowhere near enough to outweigh the actual purpose of a regularly used infobox ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 11:32, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a public free service. Not some technical gatekeep for closet antisemites to suddenly care about “the sanctity of the edit” bs.

You know how many absurdly and cartoonishly offensive, racist, degrading things you can get away with posting on here using this logic? 2601:98A:4300:4C1:85C8:B7E6:7AD2:BBBC (talk) 23:22, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Everything has an “origin”

The article is about her entire person. Not just her career.

Get rid of her entire personal life in the article if you wanna strictly make the article about her career. 2601:98A:4300:4C1:85C8:B7E6:7AD2:BBBC (talk) 23:24, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

None of this is unusual. There are plenty of domestic examples of this such as Besa (singer), whose birthplace and origin are both within Albania. Toffeenix (talk) 14:08, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

And about a million that do not. 2601:98A:4300:4C1:85C8:B7E6:7AD2:BBBC (talk) 23:24, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

• I agree with the claim, the parents of Golan are jews from Ukraine and Latvia!!. This is not only antisemitic, but also anti-ukraine and anti-latvian racism. In Russia, its a pretty common rhetoric labelling the non-russian minorities, moved to russian cities as "russians", for example many initially ukrainian famous writers or artists from the past are labeled as "russians". Other Greek artist from Eurovision, Marina Satti for example has a father from Sudan, but does not have 'Sudanese' origins in her Article, why? This is a blatant racism and hypocrisy. Dulamas (talk) 19:19, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

  This is not about her parents, it is about where she grew up and became famous. She spend more of her life in Russia than in Israel. Please read previous discussions.

  Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 19:38, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

  This is complete nonsense. It's an absolutely unarguable position. Her origin is not from Moscow and absolutely NOBODY uses "origin" as the place where they started singing. TzCher (talk) 19:40, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

  Please read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_musical_artist

  "The town, city etc., from which the group or musician originated (that is, the place where the group was founded, or where the individual performer started their career, should it not match the location of their birth). [...] Omit the country if it does not differ from that specified at the field "birth_place"."

  This has been discussed before, please read the discussion before commenting things that have already been answered. Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 19:45, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

  This is for the MUSICAL CAREER section, for their musical origins, not for the origins of the person themselves, as is presented currently on the page, and you know this perfectly well. Blatant disregard for objective truth and Wikipedia standards. Disgusting editor behaviour. TzCher (talk) 19:53, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

  I see someone changed the template, that's where the confusion came from, sorry. In my opinion the template needs to be turned back to the musical career one. In this case the use is indeed erroneous. There have been a lot of edits lately and I missed that change. If I could change it back to origin (music career) I would but sadly I cannot.

• Addition:

  Your namecalling however is absolutely not done, please do not continue with personal attacks on users.

  Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 19:58, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

  In which case the problem is you literally hijacked the page to argue your POV without even checking what MULTIPLE people have complained about. You didn't even bother to read the article you're arguing about. And you see nothing wrong with this approach? I see you wrote recently you're a new editor. It shows.

  And I have not name-called anyone anything. Spreading lies is not going to help your position. TzCher (talk) 20:05, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

  I have contributed a lot to discussions on this page, so I certainly read this page. I just have read this page over so many different days that I mixed up versions.

  I clearly did see a mistake in my conduct, which is why I apologized. Something I still expect from you. Your conduct is not within the bounds of WP:civility and includes personal attacks. Accusing me of spreading lies is a further attack. And yes, I consider "Disgusting editor behaviour" an attack.

  If you read my earlier discussions you can see that I am open to both sides of the argument and I am certainly not here to push my POV. I have made arguments for and against both Israeli alone and Russian-Israeli. I have listed what sources say and both are used, however the majority and the highest valued ones have used Russian-Israeli.

  So to summarize:

  I made a mistake, I apologize for that.

  My wording was a bit harsh, this was because I was tired of many repeated arguments. For most arguments the situation had not changed, they had in this case. I apologies for this too, I should have been nicer.

  I support your point on removing Moscow as the origin within the current template, however I support changing it back to musical career over that, due to her complex situation. I therefor reject your accusation that I am trying to argue my POV on this.

  I hope this clears things up, this is a very emotionally laden situation for many people, so I understand if emotions run high.

  Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 20:20, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

  Why do we need that portion of the template? Not every entry of every template is mandatory, and as far as I can see there is no consensus as to what should be in "origin." Do we indeed have a consensus? Am I wrong here? I don't see it. Coretheapple (talk) 20:54, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

  I think it is to clarify why she is called Russian-Israeli in Reliable sources. I am unsure about consensus, so my guess is that we do not have a consensus.

  I do think we need an organised discussion on how to do the template thing, since many topics are crossing over. I am glad we have more people around here. Quite some things were decided when there were fewer people, so I think it's important we reassess the current consensus.

  I think if we do continue using Russian-Israeli, origin might be useful, but if we end up with Israeli alone it might not be necessary. Do you think we should do an assessment of where the current editors stand like I did a week or so ago on the Israeli vs Russian-Israeli situation?

  Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 21:03, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

  Perhaps we can just omit that line if there is no clear consensus. This is what happens from time to time in ancilliary areas. So much time is wasted over user box entries (or the existence of user boxes at all) or categories. Anything that requires editors to engage in synthesis, as basically that is what these things require even if not explicitly. Coretheapple (talk) 22:08, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

  Keep in mind that the argument above was happening while the "Musical Career" section of the info-box did not exist. Thus, the info-box simply showed her origin being from Moscow, which, again, was an absurd position to defend. The article has since been edited and fixed, with the correct section added. TzCher (talk) 21:18, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 May 2024

Remove the “origin” section. It clearly states she was born in Israel. Haven’t found such a section with any other singer. Seems like a suspicious, say malicious, anomaly. 2603:7000:9700:522D:9D9A:F9D2:D187:1ADD (talk) 03:00, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

See below - I've removed it for now while we get some consensus but I'd like to note: it is completely false to say that this is unique or a "suspicious" or "malicious" anomaly. It's very common. I just went to a list of Latin American musicians and did a short random sample, and it's in about half of them.

Therefore, this is not a very compelling argument and people should drop it - and also read WP:AGF if you've been sent here from twitter or whatever.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:17, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Removing the origin section until there is consensus here - this is a BLP issue

Per WP:BLP the infobox should not put forward a highly contentious claim while we are discussing it. Per that policy, I am removing it for now, and there needs to be a proper process of discussion here before it is added back - if it is. (I personally highly doubt it will remain, but that's for a discussion.) Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I'll further note that the issue of ambiguity of the "origin" parameter is well-known and a discussion has been started here about potentially changing it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:36, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

@Jimbo Wales I've got no idea what's going on here and why this has become such a critical issue. There must be some sort of ulterior motive at play, but for the life of me, I can't imagine what it is. Why is it so critical for some that she be labelled as Russian Israeli and not just Israeli? If you find out, please enlighten me. MaskedSinger (talk) 15:04, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

@Jimbo Wales also we could be stuck in a Terminator like loop here.

For instance, if you look at the article on 11 March, she's described as a Russian-Israeli singer. There's no source for that. So when the Eurovision was happening, journalists came to this article, saw she was described as Russian Israeli, described her as such in their article and John Connor was born. MaskedSinger (talk) 16:45, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Kylian Mbappé isn't described as Cameroonian-French

And his parents are from Cameroon. He also isn't described as Monegasques-French, although he started his career in Monaco.

So why does Eden listed as Russian-Israeli? 93.173.125.58 (talk) 20:52, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

@93.173.125.58 Edan's family moved to Russia when she was 6 and spent 12 years there. I'm not sure what her citizenship status was there, but she's spend more than half her life there. NuanceQueen (talk) 23:56, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

So, Leo Messi is Spanish-Argentinian footballer? 147.235.196.69 (talk) 07:08, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 May 2024

Change Russian-Israeli singer to Latvian-Israeli singer.

Her father is Latvian, and not Russian, they only lived in Russia for a while before moving back to Israel. Making Eden a high likely holder of dual citizenship of Latvia and Israel.

Keeping in mind, if Eden is Russian and a carrier of dual Russian citizenship as mentioned from other edits, she wouldn’t be able to enter the EU, as there’s limitations on Russian passport holders or even as dual citizenship when it comes to entry into the EU.

Eden’s full family tree has been published on the Jews of Latvia page. 2A03:EC00:B1A2:3F73:948E:8C68:DC74:3F9 (talk) 04:29, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Eden explicitly stated in a recent interview with Mako.co.il that she is not Russian. It couldn't be more clear: "Some say I'm not Israeli enough and call me Russian, but I'm the most Israeli there is," She emphasized, "... there was always this part that 'I'm 'Eden Golan', I'm not Russian and I'm not part of them, I'm Israeli." [8] Gardenchef19 (talk) 04:47, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I do not see any good reason to put her as Latvian, seeing only one of her parents is Latvian (her mother being Ukranian). We also cannot speculate on any dual citizenship page, especially not on a BLP page. It has already happened multiple times that a low quality source on her citizenship has been removed. Besides it is unclear (at least to me) if her dad has had the Latvian nationalty, or whether Latvian refers to his ethnic background.

The Facebook page does not seem to cite any sources, and random Facebook accounts are not reliable sources.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 08:08, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

"a Russian-Israeli singer " is misleading

It make the reader think her ethnicity or nationality is Russian. None of this is true. 85.65.183.92 (talk) 06:24, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

"Russian-Israeli"?

Golan was born in Israel, her parents are from Latvia and Ukraine. She lives with her father in Moscow for a few years due to work reasons, but has never identified as Russian and does not hold Russian citizenship. Why does the article state that she is Russian? Zohariko1234 (talk) 10:00, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Contributing to this arguement, in an interview with Mako on February 2, 2024, Eden firmly stated her national identity[9]: "Some write that I'm not Israeli enough, that I'm Russian and all kinds of things like that, but I'm the most Israeli there is. My whole family is here, we made sure about the holidays, we went to a Chabad house and visited Israel several times a year. We always knew we would return to Israel, there was no doubt, the matter was when. Because of these reactions there is a feeling that I need to prove my Israeliness, even though there is nothing to prove - I am the most Israeli there is." ... "Even with my name, people always had a problem. It's the most Israeli name. Maybe if they called me Masha they would treat me differently, but there was always this part that "I'm 'Eden Golan", I'm not Russian and I'm not part of them, I'm Israeli. I was a foreigner there." Gardenchef19 (talk) 11:58, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

This has been discussed ad nauseam and has been settled. Please see previous discussions; there is consensus to describe her as Russian-Israeli. --Tataral (talk) 03:43, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

No, there is no such consensus.

Please Tataral, don't lie. 85.65.183.92 (talk) 13:12, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Please, no personal attacks. I think Tataral is clearly wrong in saying that there's a consensus for that - there clearly isn't. Indeed, it's contentious in a different way from the other controversy relating to the "origin" parameter. Although the origin parameter is poorly named (see the discussion on the talk page of the template), it is correct to say that her career began in Russia. If the parameter were renamed to make it clear that her actual origin isn't in any way Russia, I don't think peoople would object to that.

But saying that someone who lived in Russia for some years as a child "is" Russian is a pretty different matter, especially when we have a well-sourced quote from her that she is not Russian, does not identify as Russian, etc. I'd like to see a thoughtful presentation of the case, with reference to BLP policy which normally counsels against aggressively categorizing people in a way that they would object to.

My own view is that it would be perfectly sensible to describe her as an Israeli singer who spent significant time in her childhood in Russia - that's factually accurate and doesn't bring into play a contentious and probably factually wrong categorization.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:53, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Latvian-Israeli is the correct version

Eden is latvian israeli, her father is latvian her whole family is latvian, and her latvian family tree was published on Jews of Latvia facebook page.

eden only relocated to russia due to her parents work. further, she most likely is a carrier if a latvian citizenship which makes sense or else she wouldnt have been able to participate in Eurovision as theres limitations of wntry and activities to russian citizenships even as dual citizenship. 2A03:EC00:B15D:90E3:2CEC:7474:23F7:DE7F (talk) 10:10, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

This has been settled. The consensus is to describe her as Russian-Israeli and there is no evidence that she is Latvian. She grew up in Moscow and started her career in Russian music competitions, and has never lived in Latvia. --Tataral (talk) 03:47, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't see any consensus here at all yet, especially not for that.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:48, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

She has been described as Russian-Israeli for months and there has been consensus for that for months. Countless reliable sources describe her as Russian-Israeli. As User:C.Fred noted back in February, Solid reasons, backed up in Wikipedia policies and guidelines, have been given for why Golan should be identified as Russian or part-Russian. There has been a lot of noise and nationalist editing, mostly from IP addresses, but I've not seen any solid arguments, based on policy, that challenges the existing stable version and consensus to describe her as Russian-Israeli. She spent nearly her entire upbringing, and so far, most of her life, in Russia, started her career in Russia and was active in Russian music competitions for years, and only recently moved to Israel. It would seem absurd to describe the Eden Golan who was a contestant in the Russian selection for the Junior Eurovision Song Contest 2015 or the Russian television competition The Voice Kids, who personally lived in Moscow for 12 years, whose parents were both citizens of the Soviet Union and whose grandfather also lived in Moscow, as a person with no Russian connection. While she was born in Israel, she left the country before even starting primary school, and as an adult or person with a musical career or public role, she has only lived in Israel for one and a half years. --Tataral (talk) 09:01, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

@Tataral can you please stop claiming there is a consensus, when clearly there is no such consensus.

Actually it is more likely that there is majority against "Russian-Israeli" הויקיפדון (talk) 18:45, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Ethnicity discrimination?

I just have a question - if Wikipedia is supporting transgender & non-binary people by respecting their pronouns and completely changing the gender language on their pages, why not respect Eden who said she doesn’t see herself as Russian (because she isn’t) and simply call her an Israeli singer (which she is)? Hollywood9oz (talk) 23:52, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Family

Eden is a niece of Dorel Golan. 147.235.196.69 (talk) 06:42, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

If you can find a source for this (I can't at the moment), I'll add it in. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 17:10, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, currently I found it only in Russian (even not in Hebrew).

https://rus.tvnet.lv/7958239/korni-iz-latvii-i-karera-v-rf-uchastnica-ot-izrailya-na-evrovidenii-eden-golan

Also from Facebook account of Eden’s grandfather (also in Russian) https://www.facebook.com/yuri.golan/

I’m convinced, but I’m not sure it’s enough for wiki. 2A06:C701:9CDB:1A00:68D6:B8CD:15E5:9754 (talk) 21:20, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, Russian's good enough to include it I'd say. I'll add. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 21:58, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Can we please collect all sources relating to her nationality?

I think it would be very helpful if we can bring together all the sources - reliable sources in particular - relating to her nationality. We have a good source from her saying quite clearly that she is not Russian and does not identify as Russian. I think some sources casually call her Russian but those passing references probably are not good enough to contradict her own very specific and public claim otherwise. There's a fair amount of banter about her parents being from Latvia or Ukraine - but are there sources for that which would shed more light on the issue? Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:57, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I've butted out from the discussion because at a certain point you get tired of reading seventy-squandillion comments per day from Twitter users brigaded to this page, on why everyone who edits this page is an agent of some foreign government or otherwise bigot, but I'll say Speederzzz has done a superb job of collating them in section 8 of this talk page. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 17:10, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I think with the current restart of the debate and the end of eurovision it would be good for me to update the list of sources with more recent sources (which, considering the booing she received and the criticism the Israeli delegation has gotten for their conduct, I assume are plentiful).

I have an important meeting tomorrow, so I am unsure if I can update it then, but I think before the weekend I should be able to expand the current list to incorporate post-eurovision sources.

Would it be preferable to readers if I simply update my list, make a new one and reply to my old list or make a new section?

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 22:02, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Given the mess on the talk page (from twitter brigading, as noted) a new section might be advisable, with that updated list. Do you read Hebrew? I can look at Hebrew sources using Google translate, but it's hard to find them.

I think one relevant thing would be whether there are reliable sources regarding the nationality of her parents, which add a lot of information to the situation.

Here's an entirely different scenario - we used to refer to Hilaria Baldwin as Spanish-American and even said in the Infobox that she was born in Mallorca. And no wonder as many sources [10] [11] [12] said so. So, early press mentions calling Eden Golan "Russian-Israeli" don't necessarily determine the matter, especially she is herself quite clear that she is not Russian at all. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:38, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I sadly do not speak Hebrew, I used to be able to transliterate it, but that is a long time ago. If there is a hebrew speaker (and perhaps a russian speaker for the other side of the bar) who would be able to help that would be great.

My biggest fear about the whole situation is that perhaps some citogenesis is going on, as you seem to insinuate. I of course have no proof of that, although as a last resort I could try contacting some writers of "Russian-Israeli" articles to check. Been a bit hesitant to mention it in case it starts a whole new discussion and derails the talk page even more.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 18:20, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Russian citizenship

She has Russian citizenship according to the Times of Israel, Russia Today and Euronews. [13] [14] [15] This is a universally accepted fact, so why have you removed this without any sources to back up your claim that she doesn't? @Zohariko1234: Makeandtoss (talk) 08:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss I cited an interview for Ynet where she explicitly says she doesn't have Russian citizenship. Shouldn't she herself be the premier authority on this? She is certainly a more reliable source on the subject than some state owned outlet like RT. Zohariko1234 (talk) 09:13, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Not really, there is an obvious self-interest in hiding one's citizenship. You can elaborate that she has stated so in the body, but to remove the sourced information that she does indeed have Russian citizenship from the body and the lede (as cited by European, Israeli and Russian media) without providing a RS that does not explicitly negate the claim, is not the best way in my opinion. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:24, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

there is an obvious self-interest in hiding one's citizenship - spot on. WP:MANDY feels incredibly applicable here.... ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 13:58, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I assume that by linking to a humorous essay you are only joking, but just in case let it be said that it's not appropriate for us, as Wikipedians, to judge that someone is lying based on it being in their self-interest to do so. (In this case, even that seems like a wild stretch.). We do, however, judge the quality of sourcing, and RT as a source is extremely dubious as a state-sponsored propaganda outlet.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:41, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

My comment is indeed intended to be humorous and I have no disagreements on the reliability of RT, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility given the other country in the discussion here were booted from the competition she participated in. Given the cloud under which that happened, people would respond poorly to that. Not a question of judgment and not impacting my votes which have been based on the convincing arguments of others, of course. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 18:49, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Can you clarify how you see she has Russian citizenship? Is it the "Russian-Israeli" designation? I'm personally unsure if that is enough to include citizenship but I could be wrong. RT is considered not reliable so there is no use in bringing it up (on top of that there is the fact most europeans cannot visit the website).

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 12:18, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Speederzzz: Indeed, the Russian-Israeli label is a clear indication of dual citizenship according to standards of ToI and Euronews. As for RT it explicitly states: "who holds dual Israeli-Russian citizenship". Despite RT's unreliability this just shows that this information is universally accepted as fact. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I would say that RT's unreliability specifically doesn't show it is an accepted fact, simply because RT has lied/misrepresented in the past.

This next part isn't meant as suspicion but probably just my own incompetence: Where did you find the standards of ToI and Euronews? Because I can't find one for the ToI and the Euronews one is mostly vague languages like "we will represent all sides of the story fairly" and such.

I think we need some pretty indisputable statement of her citizenship to counter her own words, even if there are reasons to doubt her personal statement.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 14:45, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Speederzzz: RT has no interest in lying about some random singer's citizenship status. Nor does an Israeli or European news sources. ToI and Euronews and media generally refer to people exclusively using their citizenship status. Furthermore, taking an interview, a primary source, reading her denial in it and then using it as fact without commentary from a secondary source, is also original research. We have no RS saying otherwise and this fact should not be disputed by OR. Makeandtoss (talk) 16:14, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I am unsure if "generally refer to" is strong enough in this case. Barred nationalities (Albanian-American, Moroccan-German, Dutch-Suriname) do not always refer to nationality in the media. Assigning a citizenship that could cause negative attention (thanks to the war) without indisputable evidence might bring negative attention to Wikipedia.

I would say that RT has a reason to claim her as Russian, since countries often like to claim popular figures as theirs. A symbol of their cultural impact so to say. Unsure if that is what is happening. Honestly don't care, RT isn't reliable so the whole discussion is kinda useless. (But if I didn't have useless discussions, I would have to fill my free time with something else :P)

So yeah, generally I'm extra cautious because of BLP and because if the vagueness/multiple uses of barred nationalities.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 17:15, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Updated sources lists

I tried my best finding english language sources, post-eurovision. As I expected, the "Israeli" list now contains a bunch more generally reliable entries. The "Russian-Israeli" list mostly features lower reliability certainty articles and the word is often used only in the image description. The balance seems to have shifted to "Israeli".

Sources using Russian-Israeli

Link	Source	Reliability	Further notes
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/israel-eurovision-contestant-eden-golan-palestine-protests-svbr0cfb3	The Times	Generally Reliable
https://www.voanews.com/a/israel-threatens-eurovision-pull-out-if-entry-vetoed-/7501892.html	Voice of America	Generally Reliable
https://www.voanews.com/a/israel-to-revise-eurovision-entries-said-to-allude-to-hamas-attack-/7511788.html	Voice of America	Generally Reliable
https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/03/12/israel-unveils-new-eurovision-entry-after-original-song-rejected/	PinkNews	Generally Reliable
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/4/israel-agrees-to-revise-lyrics-of-song-rejected-by-eurovision	Al-Jazeera	Generally Reliable	I consider it generally reliable , since I do not count Eden as being part of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict
https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/israel-revises-song-lyrics-to-avoid-disqualification-from-eurovision-dwyu0ik7	The Jewish Chronicle	Generally Reliable
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-eurovision-singer-eden-golan-upbeat-despite-scrutiny/	Times of Israel	Seems Reliable	Reliability disputed on charges of anti-semitism, but comes across as reliable on other topics: One Discussion. Also uses Israeli in another article
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/culture/article/2024/03/07/eurovision-accepts-israeli-entry-after-lyrics-edit_6596075_30.html	Le Monde	Seems Reliable	Not to be confused with the Generally Reliable Le Monde Diplomatique
https://www.barrons.com/news/israel-says-eurovision-accepts-new-entry-after-lyrics-edit-c011f6f8	Barron's	Seems Reliable	Discussion on reliability
https://www.euronews.com/culture/2024/05/02/eurovision-israel-contestant-eden-golan-warned-to-stay-in-her-hotel-room	EuroNews	Reliability Unknown	Partially funded by Hungarian state, connected to Orbáns government (known for restriction of freedom of the press)
https://www.newarab.com/news/israel-says-eurovision-accepts-new-entry-after-lyrics-edit	The New Arab	Reliability Unknown	Have an editorial policy but I do not know about their quality of work
https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/israels-eurovision-song-approved-after-lyrics-revision-191464	Hürriyet Daily News	Reliability Unknown	People seem to disagree on its reliability quality of work
			Sources beneath here are post-eurovision
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20240511-eurovision-in-gaza-s-shadow-as-israel-competes-in-final	France 24	Seems Reliable	Uses only in image description
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/eurovision-s-charged-political-history-1.7203127	Canadian Broadcasting Company	Seems Reliable	Uses only in image description
https://nationalpost.com/news/world/greta-thunberg-israel-eurovision	National Post	Seems Reliable	Uses only in image description
https://www.timesnownews.com/world/us/us-buzz/eurovision-2024-israels-performance-netizens-allege-fake-cheers-during-eden-golans-song-article-109989908	Times Now News	Reliability Unknown	highly advice reading the wiki page on it since there is very little discussion, I get mixed signals from the page. Associated with Reuters but has had multiple controversies and ethics problems.
https://www.standard.co.uk/culture/music/eurovision-song-contest-israel-eden-golan-b1156685.html	Evening Standard	No Consensus	Uses: “Russian/Israeli”
https://www.newsweek.com/israel-eurovision-contestant-eden-golan-booed-cheered-loudly-videos-show-1899600	Newsweek	No consensus	Uses Israeli in text and Russian-Israeli in image description.

Sources using Israeli

Link	Source	Reliability	Further notes
https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-796121	The Jerusalem Post	Seems Reliable	A discussion containing points on The Jerusalem Post
https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-eurovision-security-fears-malmos-jews-mute-celebrations-for-israels-eden-golan/	Times of Israel	Seems Reliable	Reliability disputed on charges of anti-semitism, but comes across as reliable on other topics: One Discussion. Also uses Russian-Israeli in another article
https://www.jns.org/eden-golan-touches-down-in-malmo-ahead-of-eurovision/	Jewish News Syndicate	Reliability Unknown	Some consider it reliable, some too biassed and/or too derivative. A discussion on its reliability
			Sources beneath here are post-eurovision
https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/golan-reaches-the-heights-israels-eurovision-champion-returns-home-proud-and-resilient-n4ul91sb	The Jewish Chronicle	Generally Reliable	Refers to Eden as “the Israeli singer”
https://apnews.com/article/eurovision-israel-eden-golan-protests-23304985ecffe31100968b020dfc23f3	Associated Press	Generally Reliable
https://www.scmp.com/magazines/style/entertainment/article/3262472/who-eden-golan-controversial-israeli-eurovision-singer-who-just-came-5th-raised-russia-20-year-old	South China Morning Post	Generally Reliable	In their “style” section
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/05/10/eurovision-israel-eden-golan-protests/dff7383e-0eb7-11ef-ae0a-a6870885518d_story.html	The Washington Post	Generally Reliable
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/2024/05/09/eurovision-singer-eden-golan-israel-palestine-protest/73631618007/	USA Today	Generally Reliable
https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-800879	The Jerusalem Post	Seems reliable	A discussion containing points on The Jerusalem Post
https://www.newsweek.com/israel-eurovision-contestant-eden-golan-booed-cheered-loudly-videos-show-1899600	Newsweek	No consensus	Uses Israeli in text and Russian-Israeli in image description.

If you find more articles, feel free to send a message on my personal talk page. If someone speaks Russian or Hebrew and can share what those sources say, that would be very valuable.

PS: I think it might be time to start archiving some parts, the length of this page is becoming a bit silly. If anything, with the posting of the updated list I think it is valid to archive the old one. Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 19:48, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@[[User:Speederzzz|Speede First of all, thank you very much for your research, I happen to speak Russian and Hebrew, and I would like to give a few insights into the question, first of all, when we title Eden as Russian/Israeli/Russian-Israeli, what are we referring to here? nationality, place of birth, citizenship, current location, descent? the answer to this question will have a great impact on how we label her, I now have another thing to say, I have the answer to her nationality, she is ISRAELI, she identifies as Israeli, source: https://www.mako.co.il/tv-the-next-star/season10-articles/Article-e63d0715f646d81027.htm

She has said in numerous interviews, including in the rising star TV series that she is Israeli, she moved to Russia only because of her father's business, she also said she had a foreign accent when speaking Russian, which is why she sings a lot in English in the Russian Golos (Голос) series she said she studies in an online school, she didn't attend a Russian school, and also, a funny remark, both the Russian and Hebrew Wikipedia agree she is ISRAELI

"Эден Голан (ивр. עדן גולן‎; род. 5 октября 2003, Кфар-Сава, Израиль) — израильская певица, представительница Израиля на конкурсе песни «Евровидение-2024» с песней Hurricane, заняла 5 место и 2 место по голосованию зрителей."

"עדן גולן (נולדה ב-5 באוקטובר 2003) היא זמרת-יוצרת, רקדנית ומפיקה מוזיקלית ישראלית." Doctorbeak (talk) 11:34, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

and if I may add something else, when you say someone is Russian-Israeli it sounds as though you're either referring to their citizenship, nationality or origin, but Idk what the Wikipedia policy on this topic is, if you really have a problem deciding how to label it, Idk, Email her? it might be the best solution at this point Doctorbeak (talk) 11:38, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

There is indeed a problem in "what does Russian-Israeli" even means? Because it can refer to citizenship, but we have no evidence of Russian citizenship. It can mean heritage, but her parents are from the former soviet union. (It is possible that the sources simply used the Pars-par-toto of Russia to mean Soviet Union, but we cannot know their intention unless we ask.) It could just mean a national connection, however she states she doesn't feel that way, but there argument to be made that it isn't a case of self identification (although I am unsure how that is seen in the wikipedia community). The multiple interpretations are, I think, at the base of this discussion.

I am unsure if "Russian/Hebrew Wikipedia uses X, thus X is right" is strong enough to stand on its own, as wikipedia citing wikipedia would create some problems I can imagine. It does give a certain signal. (I am very happy I had an obsession with writing systems in my teens, so I could still transliterate what you wrote haha)

I personally think the current situation (Israeli with a clarification for the use if Russian-Israeli in a note) is satisfactory, now that most new and reliable sources describe her as Israeli (and her Eurovision performance outshines anything she has done in Russia).

I think the only thing we can do to make consensus even stronger is if we get some good sources from Russian and Israeli sources that describe her instead of her describing herself, just so we avoid whether WP:ABOUTSELF or some other policy is applicable here. (I would say this falls within the bounds of ABOUTSELF but I don't have much experience with making those judgements so take me with a grain of salt on that point).

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 12:11, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

@Speederzzz I mostly agree with you.

Btw, I didn't mean to cite the Russian/Hebrew Wikipedias as sources, I was merely joking about the strange situation.

In the meantime, I found this Russian source:

https://www.1tv.ru/shows/golos-deti-5/talents/eden-golan Doctorbeak (talk) 15:38, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm sadly unable to read that page, probably part of the EU anti-russian media law/situation(?) So you'll have to do the boring part (writing what they use and if you consider them reliable).

I think we gotta wait and see if others agree too, and if that's the case change Hurricane (Eden Golan song) from "Russian-Israeli" to "Israeli". I sadly have made only around 100 edits, so I can't change it.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 18:43, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

@Speederzzz

This source is from her time in Russia, they mentioned her to be from Israel, so I suppose if by giving her a label we are discussing her origin, we have a Russian source saying her origin is Israeli

the text in the source:

"Эден

Голан

14 лет, Израиль. «Мы переехали в Москву девять лет назад из-за папиной работы. Мне очень нравится Россия, тут очень приятные люди и очень красиво, особенно зимой. Я не хожу в школу, я учусь в интернете. Меня хвалят за доброту — я всегда помогаю, если что-то случилось. Я очень трудолюбивая: у меня есть цель и я к ней иду»." Doctorbeak (talk) 21:19, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

All of this is besides the point. Russian-Israeli is a specific designation of citizenship. News websites do not need to list all citizenships of every person they are talking about. We have three sources, highly relevant and two relatively reliable ones, saying she is a dual citizen of Russia and Israel. On the other hand, there are no sources denying that except an interview. There is no justification for the removal of this reliably sourced piece of information. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:43, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

We do? Can you tell me which ones so I can add it to the list/whether I missed that while making the list. I'll put the citizenship in the Note part. I think updating this list would be better than making a new one every so often.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 15:17, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

It is reliably sourced that she is a Russian-Israeli singer. We can explain the circumstances of her birth and how she moved to Israel as an adult, but she spent practically her entire childhood in Russia and had a years-long career as a public figure/musician there before moving to Israel. Removing the Russian connection constitutes nationalist editing. The descriptor Russian-Israeli has been stable for a long time and is preferred by reliable sources, and shouldn't be removed without consensus for only describing her as Israeli – a consensus that it seems is highly unlikely to emerge. --Tataral (talk) 14:46, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

But we now also have reliable sources calling her Israeli, as you can see from the updated list there is a difference in pre- and post-eurovision, with R-I dominating pre-eurovision, but now I is dominating. So it definitely isn't stable in reliable sources. Besides that, whether she is R-I or I has not been too stable in my opinion. There have been times where I dominated and R-I dominated. For the last few days it has been I, but before that it was R-I for a few days. I definitely agree the Russian connection should stay, I am just unsure whether "Russian-Israeli" or "Israeli who spend most of her youth in Russia". I'm honestly fine with both, but my believe that R-I is definitly right has been weakened with the new RS favoring Israeli.

P.S. edit: I see you changed it back, so when I said currently I mean previously.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 15:27, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

We do not measure stability in terms of days. She has been described as Russian-Israeli for ages, months. This was only changed without consensus for short periods of time, usually without proper sources, by editors disagreeing with the sources. It shouldn't be changed without a consensus for describing her as only Israeli. She was an adult when she moved to Israel one and a half years ago and had had a seven-year long career as a public figure in Russia by then. While she was born in Israel, she left before even starting primary school. All her ancestors hail from the state that was the Russian Empire prior to the Russian revolution, she herself only lived in Moscow (outside of Israel). Both her parents were born Soviet citizen, at least one of them with a connection to Moscow. The fact that her more distant ancestors may have lived in other parts of the Soviet Union and the Russian Empire doesn't change that. She has an obvious connection to Russia, also professionally and as a public figure. One and a half years ago it would have been absurd to describe her as Israeli, given that she was a woman who grew up in Russia and who was active in Russian TV shows and who left Israel while still a kindergartener. --Tataral (talk) 16:37, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

It's fine that all these sources say xyz, but there's a lot of misinformation about this. Instead of us trying to come to a conclusion based on what we think, or based on our interepretation of what the media has reported, why don't we try and implement what she wants.

In https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/eden-golan-israels-eurovision-entry-determined-to-perform-in-the-face-of-death-threats-i8lx5bsj she says: While a star in Russia, she experienced antisemitism there. Reflecting on her time there, she says: “I always felt like an outsider there; I was never really a part of them.”

This is consistent with other interviews I've heard from her where she considers herself to be 100% Israeli and 0% Russian. No one disputes that she lived there for a chunk of her life, but she doesn't regard herself as Russian let alone Russian Israeli. And so she was a citizen, living there as a kid, but if she doesn't want to be labeled as such, should we still force our pedantry on her?

On top of this, the lede is horribly skewed. It should be more along the lines of : She represented Israel in the Eurovision Song Contest 2024 with the song "Hurricane", which finished in fifth place. Born in Israel, Golan moved with her family to Russia at age six.

Lachlan Murdoch spent most of his formative years in the States but is described here as Australian. MaskedSinger (talk) 20:56, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, of course, we label her as a Russian citizen per RS even if she denies or would not like to be associated with Russia. This is irrelevant. WP is written based on what reliable sources say, not based on what people would like to think of themselves. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:54, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

You can't believe that. Surely? What if the reliable source is wrong? Still go with that?

What we deem here based on these sources trumps what the reality is?! Please explain to me why this is so contentious? @Makeandtoss, please let mw know why is it so important that she be labeled as Russian? MaskedSinger (talk) 09:26, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Because WP reflects reliable sources. We have three sources from three different region: Israel, Europe and Russia saying she is a dual citizen. And I have found further sources now reflecting universal consensus: [16], [17], [18]. Just as Shireen Abu Akleh is described as Palestinian-American. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:38, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the 2nd VOA article, I'm going to add it to the list too.

I do however think "universal consensus" is a bit extreme, since we have many documented cases of reliable sources leaving out the Russian part.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 10:03, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think leaving out the Russian part is a contradiction. I think it is normal. Just like how describing a photon as a particle does not negate the fact that it is also a wave. Plenty of articles to describe Shireen Abu Akleh as only Palestinian. [19] [20] Makeandtoss (talk) 10:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Are you aware of how fallacious your logic is?

If somewhere a person's birthday was put as March 2 and thus in articles everywhere on sites that are reliable sources it says the birthday is March 2, you'd say the birthday is March 2. What if thats a mistake and its actually March 22, you'd still say March 2 as thats what the sources say? Because this is whats happening here. Most likely one of the wire services said "Russian Israeli" and this is why all the other articles say it. It's not x different sources, it's the same incorrect source x times. MaskedSinger (talk) 11:02, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

One can have only one birthday. But one can have multiple passports. How is that even a good analogy? Makeandtoss (talk) 11:46, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

1) First of all, you're wrong. There's more than one calendar ;)

2) Passports doesn't equal nationality. If I'm Greek and I get a Peruvian passport from one of my parents even though I've never set foot there, that makes me Peruvian? Then again I could be born in Spain, move to Italy when I'm 12 and even though I'm now 23, I consider myself Spanish. Point is, how can you or a journalist define someone else's nationality. It's up to the person themselves.

What I don't get with any of this is why it's so important to you. Why do you care what nationality she is? What's in this for you? MaskedSinger (talk) 13:02, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Please refrain from personalizing this discussion and focus on Wikipedia guideline, namely WP:NATIONALITY: "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for that which made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory where the person is currently a national or permanent resident." Makeandtoss (talk) 13:34, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

She is notable for being Israeli.

On WP:NATIONALITY it says:

The simplest example is someone who continued to reside in their country of origin:

Daniel Boone (November 2, 1734 [O.S. October 22] – September 26, 1820) was an American pioneer and frontiersman.

This is what we have here - born in Israel and lives in Israel.

then it says: Finally, in controversial or unclear cases, nationality is sometimes omitted.

But yet because an Al jazeera article from AFP that says shes Russian Israeli, you're going to contradict the said same guidelines you refer to?!?! MaskedSinger (talk) 13:44, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

She did not continue to reside there, she was raised in Russia and rose to prominency there. Her nationality is neither unclear nor controversial, we have five reliable sources attesting to her dual citizenship. Please also read WP:NOTGETTINGIT. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:48, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't know why you have to torment this poor girl. What for? MaskedSinger (talk) 15:00, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Also: "Most likely one of the wire services said "Russian Israeli" and this is why all the other articles say it. It's not x different sources, it's the same incorrect source x times." this is your personal opinion that is not supported by source. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:46, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

There is an essay on this topic: Verifiability, not truth. Unless we find a verifiable source finding that the others have made a mistake/have copied each others mistakes, we can't use it as proof.

You could try contacting the author of one of the "Russian-Israeli" articles and see where they got it from. Of course private communications can be hard to verify on its authenticity, but that could be a start (or not).

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 12:32, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

You continue to put misleading claims.

Just to make it clear, soviet union is not equal to Russia 46.116.251.199 (talk) 08:26, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

opening rfc regarding "russian"

Sibce @Tataral insist to put Russian and since the majority is against, I suggest to open rfc about the subject. 46.116.251.199 (talk) 08:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Archiving

The talk page guidelines suggest starting archiving above 75 KB, we are currently at 126,5 KB. Is there someone willing to set up a bot to archive some of the dormant discussions from the beginning. I am not confident enough to attempt it myself and possibly make a big mess here haha

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 12:43, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

She is not Russian

As you can learn from her name, she is not Russian. Her name is very Israeli. She defines herself as Israeli. She was born in Israel. She only has Israeli citizenship. Hebrew is her first language. Her family origin is from Lithuania and Ukraine, not Russia. Her father (and previously her grandfather) worked in Russia. Therefore she lived with her family in Russia, yet keeping her Hebrew name, despite antisemitic experiences she went through. So what makes her Russian? The fact that she had to immigrate there as a child? The fact that she made a living as a singer in Russia on a variety of TV platforms certainly does NOT make her Russian.

There is a much more distinct case. The singer Tamer Nafar is an Israeli citizen. He lived his whole life in Israel. He only has Israeli citizenship and no other. Speaks great Hebrew. He even live in "Israeli Heroes" street (רחוב גיבורי ישראל). However, he is not defined as an "Israeli rapper" but as a "Palestinian rapper". Not even as an "Israeli Arab" or "Israeli-Palestinian". Just Palestinian. This absurdity exists, only because he defines himself as Palestinian. He does not have Palestinian citizenship. He never lived in the Palestinian Authority (which is very close to his home). He simply chooses to live in Israel, and calls himself Palestinian. Nafar's self-determination is not more important than Golan's. Otherwise its just a bias. Pacifico (talk) 23:12, 21 May 2024 (UTC)