Talk:Drummuckavall ambush

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Tagging[edit]

This article is a mass of unsourced claims, information that isn't in the sources provided, or original research or filler.

Result: Introduction of undercover units by the British Army in Northern Ireland

Factually incorrect, as well as unsourced. Undercover units such as the MRF were operating in Northern Ireland well before 1975, as were the SAS. The SAS were not even officially deployed as a result of this ambush, they were deployed following Kingsmills to stamp out cross-border banditry and murder, and no mention was made of them being deployed as a result of this incident. It is an improper synthesis to even suggest they were.

Strength: 1 ASU

Says who? Why not 2 ASUs or 3?

After a bomb attack which claimed the lives of two Royal Marines at Drummuckavall (1974), the British Army withdrew from several manned observation points along the border between South Armagh and the Republic of Ireland. It was not until 1984, when the first surveillance watchtowers were erected, that the army presence in this region became permanent.

This is not in the source cited (Harnden page 254).

The intelligence and control over the area relied then, and for about ten years, mostly on mobile posts, comprising small infantry sections.

Source please?

A section of four members of the Royal Fusiliers regiment, coming from Crossmaglen, mounted an observation post at 2:00 on 22 November 1975.

The observation post was mounted on 21 November 1975, fixed this basic factual error myself.

Unknown to them, an IRA unit of 12 men had been watching their movements

The source says the IRA unit consisted of up to 12 men not 12 men. And what movements? By definition a covert observation post does not move, it is static. Perhaps you are referring to when they moved into position? Not according to the cited source which states They were just 50 yards from some houses across the border and were spotted by a local who told the IRA of their position.

The next year, the British Government deployed the Special Air Service into the province

Province? Amended to a more neutral term.

The British Army also changed tactics etc

Where is the evidence that this was a result of this incident? Most of the aftermath section seems like unrelated filler. BigDunc^Talk 12:18, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

More detail needed[edit]

We need more detail on the ambush itself. For example, wher' was the IRA positioned and did the Fusiliers return fire? More importantly, what happened to Fusilier Paul Johnson? The article says that Johnson "was injured when he tried to react, after the IRA men asked him to surrender". How did the IRA ask him to surrender? How did he react? How was he injured, and what happened next? ~Asarlaí 22:24, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Asarlaí, fortunately I've found a comprehensive account on David McKittrick's Lost Lives (p. 597) which answers most of your questions. McKittrick mentions an inquest that concluded the IRA volunteers fired from two diferent positions inside the Republic. The only fusilier on watch was McDonald, while the others were taking a meal or resting in their sleeping bags. Harnden suggests that there was no return fire, and that Johnson 'played dead' while the IRA was asking him to surrender. He was then hit by a second outburst of fire on his back and upper arm (actually both authors state that he did not "try to react", I will fix it ). Per McKittrick, we know that Paul Johnson crawled 25 yards to a road where he was rescued by reinforcements brought in by helicopter. I will ad McKittrick's details to the article immediately.--Darius (talk) 15:47, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Good work. I must get a hold of that book. ~Asarlaí 14:43, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Multiple editions of Harnden, with wildly differing page numbers[edit]

@Jugs Rimes: and @DagosNavy: as opposed to the 2000 edition with ISBN 0-340-71737-8 I own the 1999 edition with ISBN 0-340-71736-X. The quote provided from page 159 of the 2000 edition actually appears on page 116 of the 1999 edition. Please bear this in mind relating to adding {{fv}} or similar. FDW777 (talk) 07:02, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]