Talk:Ditrysia

Please Clarify Monophyly of Tineina and Cossina

Tineina and Cossina each have a link to a source listing the included subfamilies. Neither Section clade (as described there) is compatible with the clades here called Apoditrysia, Obtectomera, and Macrolepidoptera (as described here) - as far as I can tell they are two completely different, mutually exclusive classifications. If Apoditrysia, Obtectomera, and Macrolepidoptera are monophyletic then Tineina and Cossina are both paraphyletic with respect to Apoditrysia, Obtectomera, and Macrolepidoptera. "Obstecomera and Macrolepidoptera are other examples of Ditrysia's subclades." does not tell me anything helpful. Please clarify the situation and how these two taxonomic concepts relate to each other. Dates and authors are needed! If they are separate it would be much better to have a separate article section for each classification scheme or cladogram, instead of mashing them together into one paragraph. If they're meant to be compatible then their contents need to be clarified. 2601:441:4900:A6E0:0:0:0:543D (talk) 01:59, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

I've done my best to compare which superfamilies have been placed in which clades (using the cited Wiktionary page for Tineina, and Wikipedia for the others). Some Wiki articles say Macrolepidoptera is not monophyletic and that most of the Macrolepidopteran moths have been reclassified as Macroheterocera, which isn't mentioned in this article. As far as I can see the Ditrysian superfamilies are classified like this:

Caption text

Superfamily	Nested Classification 1	Nested Classification 2	Heart Classification
Alucitoidea	Ditrysia, Apoditrysia	Ditrysia, Apoditrysia	not classified
Axioidea/Cimelioidea	Macrolepidoptera (as Axioidea or Drepanoidea)	not classified	Cossina (as Cimelioidea)
Bombycoidea	Macrolepidoptera	Macroheterocera	Cossina
Calliduloidea	Macrolepidoptera	not classified	Cossina
Castnoidea	not classified	not classified	Cossina
Choreutoidea	Ditrysia, Apoditrysia	Ditrysia, Apoditrysia	not classified
Copromorphoidea/Carposinoidea	Obtectomera	Obtectomera	Tineina
Cossoidea	Ditrysia, Apoditrysia	Ditrysia, Apoditrysia	Cossina
Drepanoidea	Macrolepidoptera	Macroheterocera	Cossina
Epermenioidea	Ditrysia, Apoditrysia	Ditrysia, Apoditrysia	not classified
Galacticoidea	Ditrysia, Apoditrysia	Ditrysia, Apoditrysia	Tineina
Gelechioidea	Ditrysia	Ditrysia	Tineina
Geometroidea	Macrolepidoptera	Macroheterocera	Cossina
Gracillarioidea	Ditrysia	Ditrysia	not classified
Hedyloidea	Macrolepidoptera, Rhopalocera	Rhopalocera	not classified
Hesperioidea	Macrolepidoptera, Rhopalocera	Rhopalocera	not classified
Hyblaeoidea	Obtectomera	Obtectomera	not classified
Immoidea	Obtectomera	Obtectomera	Tineina
Lasiocampoidea	Macrolepidoptera	Macroheterocera	not classified
Mimallonoidea	Macrolepidoptera	Macroheterocera	not classified
Noctuoidea	Macrolepidoptera	Macroheterocera	Cossina
Papilionoidea	Macrolepidoptera, Rhopalocera	Rhopalocera	Cossina
Pterophoroidea	Ditrysia, Apoditrysia	Ditrysia, Apoditrysia	Tineina
Pyraloidea	Obtectomera	Obtectomera	Tineina
Schreckensteinoidea	Ditrysia, Apoditrysia	Ditrysia, Apoditrysia	not classified
Sesioidea	Ditrysia, Apoditrysia	Ditrysia, Apoditrysia	Cossina
Simaethistoidea	Ditrysia	Ditrysia	Tineina
Sphingoidea	Macrolepidoptera (as Bombycoidea)	Macroheterocera (as Bombycoidea)	Cossina (as Sphingoidea)
Thyroidea	Obtectomera	Obtectomera	not classified
Tineoidea	Ditrysia	Ditrysia	Tineina
Tortricoidea	Ditrysia, Apoditrysia	Ditrysia, Apoditrysia	Cossina
Uranioidea	Macrolepidoptera (as Geometroidea)	Macroheterocera (as Geometroidea)	Cossina (as Uranioidea)
Urodoidea	Ditrysia, Apoditrysia	Ditrysia, Apoditrysia	not classified
Whalleyanoidea	Obtectomera	Obtectomera	Tineina
Yponomeutoidea	Ditrysia	Ditrysia	Tineina
Zygaenoidea	Ditrysia, Apoditrysia	Ditrysia, Apoditrysia	not classified

68.46.84.245 (talk) 03:04, 1 February 2023 (UTC) (I'm the same person, my ISP changed while I typed)

Same person here again. I looked at the source for Cossina, Encyclopedia of Entomology, on Google Books. This source also includes Tineina and adds a couple subfamilies not mentioned in wiktionary (which I'll add to my table above). It does not mention Apoditrysia, Obtectomera, or Macroheterocera. It only mentions Macrolepidoptera to imply it isn't a natural clade. So it looks like this classification and the Apoditrysia > Obtectomera > Macrolepidoptera classification are competing theories. Unfortunately I couldn't find the authorial source for Cossina and Tineina. 2601:441:4900:A6E0:0:0:0:543D (talk) 18:21, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

They seem to be two competing classifications, both originating in 1998.

1. The "32 superfamily" classification (actually 33 superfamilies listed) in the article on Butterflies and Moths by John Heppner in Encyclopedia of Entomology seems to be an update of the one by John Heppner in Classification of Lepidoptera. Part 1: Introduction. I can't find an online copy of the source, but this archived page claims to use that classification. On page 629 of the Encyclopedia of Entomology, another recent classification with 46 superfamilies is mentioned.
2. The 46 superfamily classification seems to be that used by Niels Kristensen and Andrzej Skalski in the Handbook of Zoology (Volume 1, 1998). This was revised slightly in Appendix 1 of the second volume in 2007 (adding a superfamily and moving a couple) and can also be found in Kristensen et al (2007).

The latter classfication with the Apoditrysia > Obtectomera > Macrolepidoptera classification seems more consistent with molecular data (see van Nieukerken et al 2011) and Mitter et al 2017), although there is some shuffling of superfamilies which led van Nieukerken et al 2011 to introduce Macroheterocera for Macrolepidoptera (see note 59).

As for changing the article. It would be simplest to remove Tineina and Cossina to avoid the confusion. although we are supposed to cover alternative classifications. This one seems to have fallen into disuse but I not entirely sure about this. —  Jts1882 | talk  16:15, 24 April 2023 (UTC)