Talk:Des mots qui sonnent (song)

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Requested move 6 July 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Des mots qui sonnent (song). No such user (talk) 17:54, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing Can Stop My Love → Des mots qui sonnent (song) – Following 15 full years of having an article about Céline Dion's hit single "Des mots qui sonnent", a couple of years ago it suddenly got turned into a redirect to "Nothing Can Stop My Love" — but the problem is that this is deeply misrepresentative. For one thing, "Nothing Can Stop My Love" isn't even attempting any sort of notability claim at all in its own right, and Angela Clemmons doesn't even have an article about her as a person — literally the only discernible notability claim it has at all is the fact that Aldo Nova later handed his melody over to Luc Plamondon to write a completely different set of lyrics for Céline Dion. "Des mots qui sonnent" isn't "a French-language version" of "Nothing Can Stop My Love", it's a completely different song that just happens to share the same melody — "Nothing Can Stop My Love" is about exactly what the title says, while "Des mots qui sonnent" is literally about Céline Dion asking Luc Plamondon to write her a hit song. Like, I'm not even kidding, it's really, truly "hey songwriter, write me a song, write me a song like Sting, write me a song like Michael Jackson, write me a song that'll go top ten". It's just not in any sense the same song just because it has the same melody. But "Des mots qui sonnent" was a significant chart hit in its own right (which even actually did go top ten, very meta!), while "Nothing Can Stop My Love" had no discernible notability whatsoever except as a footnote to "Des mots qui sonnent" — which means the primary topic, and hence the proper title of the article, is "Des mots qui sonnent". The fact that "Nothing Can STop My Love" technically came first isn't as important as the fact that "Des mots qui sonnent" was the thing that actually attained notability under WP:SONGS. Bearcat (talk) 01:15, 6 July 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Natg 19 (talk) 01:54, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. I have created an article Des mots qui sonnent (song) in 2006. At that time, I didn't know that it wasn't an original song. I've found out about it in 2020 and I have moved the page to Nothing Can Stop My Love. "Nothing Can Stop My Love" was recorded first by Angela Clemmons in 1987. Her album flopped. Four years later, Aldo Nova, who wrote and produced it, gave it to Celine Dion. Luc Plamondon wrote French lyrics. Celine Dion covered the song in French. Plamondon wrote the lyrics, not translated them. It's the same with other Dion songs, and the same with other atists. Songs are not translated, they write new lyrics in other language. It doesn't change the fact that this is a cover. If we look at this the other way around, what about Dion original songs, which are sung in other languages with different lyrics? Are they new songs? No, they are covers. Angela Clemmons is not known,but it doesn't change the fact that this is a cover. It should stay as it is. Max24 (talk) 15:03, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, no. It's not the melody that determines whether a song is a cover of another song or not — that would make "The Alphabet Song" a cover of "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star", which it clearly isn't — it's the lyrics that determine whether a song is a cover of another song or not. Writing new lyrics to an existing melody is contrafactum, not "cover". Sure, if the new lyrics are in a different language it still counts as a cover if the new lyrics mean basically the same thing as the old ones (e.g. Dion's "Le monde est stone" is the same song as Cyndi Lauper's "The World Is Stone") — but if the new lyrics are completely different, such as turning a love song into a "hey, songwriter, please write me a hit song!" song, then that's not a "cover" at all.
Secondly, "Nothing Can Stop My Love" has absolutely no notability claim under WP:NSONG at all. It was not a charting hit, and absolutely nothing has ever been written about it by any reliable sources to make it the subject of any WP:GNG-worthy attention — it simply has no notability at all in its own right. "Des mots qui sonnent" is the notable thing and "Nothing Can Stop My Love" is merely a footnote to it, not vice versa: only one of those two things was ever a chart hit, only one of those two things has ever had even ten words of published third-party media attention paid to it, and that one is Dion's "Des mots".
The rule isn't that our article has to privilege whatever technically came first — it's that the article has to be about the notable thing, and the notable topic here is Dion's "Des mots qui sonnent". Bearcat (talk) 00:04, 19 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Furthermore, even if these are the same song, WP:COMMONNAME would indicate Des mots qui sonnent (song). For example, if Comme d'habitude and My Way were to be merged, it would surely be to the latter. Same for La Mer (song) and Beyond the Sea (song). But those articles treat them as separate songs, which accords with Bearcat's distinction. (I would also note that the current title was not the result of a "move" but rather a cut-and-paste move. So even if this article is kept here, it will need a history merge per WP:CUTPASTE to comply with copyright attribution.) {{replyto|SilverLocust}} (talk) 08:58, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Revert Des mots qui sonnent (song) to its pre-redirect version. Not only is the Angela Clemmons song non-notable, Clemmons is barely notable herself. I think the best solution here is to treat Dion's song as the main article subject, mention Clemmons in this article, and have Clemmons' name and Nothing Can Stop My Love both redirect here. As SilverLocust mentions, the current page structure is the result of a cut-and-paste move, so it's probably best and easiest to simply undo the cutting and pasting and restore the articles to the prior status quo. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:45, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Fine with me. Either way, I expect to tag the article for a histmerge, as some of the subsequent edits are worth keeping (if a move) or adding back (if a revert). Tomayto, tomahto. {{replyto|SilverLocust}} (talk) 08:26, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: The structure of this article is telling. The ostensible subject is only mentioned in the lead, and the vast majority (including any grounds for notability) is about Dion's contrafactum. jlwoodwa (talk) 05:15, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support making Céline Dion's song the main subject here, and titling accordingly. Adumbrativus (talk) 06:45, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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