Talk:Daniel Cohn-Bendit/Archive 1

Archive 1

Old talk

08:59, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)Why say he was born to German-Jewish parents ? Do we have to mention the ethnic or religious background of every person referred to in Wikipedia ? Do we say Mr X is born to Christian parents ? Do we say Mrs Y is born to slavic parents ? Moreover, his mother is French, not German. --ElVirolo 15:00, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Someone added that Cohn-Bendit 'lives happy with his boyfriend'. Don't know if this is true, nor do I much care. Can't see the relevance either way. Mattley 10:39, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

How is his surname pronounced? And is it pronounced in the same way in France and as in Germany? 217.44.206.242 21:32, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hi. I am sorry but this articles seems to me outrageously in favour of this politician. I doubt an objective article is possible in his case, but I am going to try. I think the sentence "Although a German citizen, Cohn-Bendit felt he was far more a citizen of Europe than any particular country" is waaaay too much a partisan justification of his present influence in the European parliament. I agree to the mention of German-Jewish origins, because he was born in fr due to WWII expulsions, and he often refers to Jewish culture himself.--81.220.15.5 10:16, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

He does not currently represent the German Green party in the European parliament: He is co-president of the Green parliamentary group, no matter which nationality. He did not emerge as the only leader of the 1968 movement. His Jewishness was not an issue to the totality of right-wing opposition, and was an issue in other parts of political society. Retrospectively this 1968 period doesn't look that exceptionnal, and only the generation who participated continues calling it "tumultuous history", "great events"... He never became leader of the French Greens in the European parliament. He was the leader of the list of candidates in France in the last but one European election, and never held another position in the French Green party, nor participated to another election there. It is not from "other leftists" only that he received criticisms, but from all parts of the Left spectrum, including the majority of Greens, for allying repeatedly with Right-wing leaders. Can anyone quote any "work" that would have had any lasting influence on anarchist or socialist thought? At least in French political literature his "works" are never referred to. The fact that he is presented as a "football fan" is a criticless transmission of his own propaganda and media profile: in fact it promotes his carreer to appear on football tv shows, where he can mix prepared football comments with political views. There is no evidence that he is still a "noted football fan" when there is no oppportunity to appear on TV, and no sports journalist has praised his "expertise" on football.--81.220.15.5 11:29, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

From the article

He is the co-author, with his brother Gabriel, of Obsolete Communism: The Left-Wing Alternative (1968), which combines an account of the events of May 1968 with a critique of Stalinism, the French Communist Party and the trade union establishment. Through this work he has had some lasting influence on anarchist and socialist thought.

Obsolete Communism is still in print, published I think by the anarchist-oriented publishing house AK Press, though I don't have my copy on hand to check that. I got my copy off the shelf in a mainstream booksellers' politics section. Yes, it has had a lasting influence on anarchist thought. It's a classic account of May '68 combined with a strong critique of Leninism, thus combining two of many anarchists' favourite things. I've often seen it referred to in stuff on '68. No-one is attempting to deny that Cohn-Bendit has travelled in a very different direction since then. If you think you can add useful pieces of information then go ahead. Mattley 11:39, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

On this book topic, I change "he" into "they", because it is co-authoring, and Gabriel is often thought to be a thinker of at least equal lasting influence.--Arnaudherve 15:40, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have removed the sentence "Although a German citizen, Cohn-Bendit felt he was far more a citizen of Europe than any particular country." It seemed to me a partisan apology of his present political activity in the European institutions.--Arnaudherve 08:40, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I changed "Detailed biography" into "Detailed Autobiography". In case of a politician, it is necessary to make the difference.--Arnaudherve 08:59, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I changed the second sentence, in order to correct his title at the EP --Arnaudherve 14:15, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I removed the phrase "Being fluent in French", because it is obvious from the fact that he attended university and became a leading orator there. In that context it looked almost like a commercial resume.--Arnaudherve 14:20, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think his ethno-religious background is important. In 1968 a French Communist leader attacked him for being a German Jew. Next day, the students marched in the streets in Paris with the slogan, "We all are German Jews". --Vladko 14:23, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It isn't important of itself, but that story would make it of significance. Do you have a source for it? I've heard it before myself, but not sure where. Mattley 15:03, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I removed "right-wing" from "his Jewishness and Germanness was an issue to right-wing opposition", because his origins were not a concern for center-right pro-European anti-De Gaulle movements, and were a concern for other left-wing movements. To reply to notes above, of course his German and Jewish origins must be described. He even says that his parents decided to conceive him at the end of WWII, because the future looked brighter. But don't forget that his being German was at least as important: for instance he was expelled in 68 for being a German in riots (Jew was not a legal concept, he was not Israeli). We also need to check what the French communists of the time exactly meant by "German-Jew". I guess it was an intellectual category or something.

I shifted "against De Gaulle's government" to student riots only, because the general strike was sociologically and politically totally different. I changed "the leader and the public face" into "a leader and a public face", because there were other student protesters appearing on TV. I shifted his joining the German Green party to before becoming deputy mayor of Frankfurt. I changed "leader of the French Green party" to "leader of the French Green party list for the European elections". That is the only position he ever held in the French Green party.--Arnaudherve 19:47, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I changed the chapter about his origins, in a way that I hope short and explanatory enough. I started a paragraph where he begins his new life in Germany.--Arnaudherve 20:02, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I had changed "he" into "they" about the book for the reason that Gabriel CB is a thinker at least as respected as Dany CB, when it comes to lasting intellectual influence. I see someone rewrote "he". It seems to me at least impolite to negate the influence of one of the authors in a co-authored book, and it seems to me unaccurate, because Gabriel had for instance influence in the school system in the later years. Could the person who negated "they" about a co-authored book explain his/her choice? I made Gabriel Cohn-Bendit a creatable page, at least I hope nobody will deny his existence.--81.220.15.5 04:14, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Go ahead. I'd be interested to read more about Gabriel C-B. The point is that this article is about Daniel C-B.It is a strange encyclopedia style to start talking about they as though they were the subject of the article. It does say very clearly that the book is co-authored. Mattley 10:22, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

I removed "he still became a central figure in that tumultuous period of French history" just out of a concern for brief style, because it seemed to me redundant with the previous sentence, then I linked it with the expulsion theme. I changed "his movement" into "his activism", because his leftist group was not included in the "German-Jew" topic, and May 68 was revolutionnary in the whole Western world, not just Cohn-Bendit districts in Paris. I wrote and/or between Jewishness and Germanness, because some political groups reproached the one and not the other, not always both (the communist party leader said "the German anarchist Cohn-Bendit"). I specified right-wing and left-wing origins in the paragraph about criticisms to his politics.--81.220.15.5 04:19, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

I am not satisfied with the mere "Cohn-Bendit followed a number of careers". I think a specific paragraph should be devoted to what he did between his expulsion from France and his joining the Green party. Could anybody help? I create a new paragraph anyway.--Arnaudherve 06:13, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I removed "He is a also a noted football fan." at the end of the article, because that is too much his own propaganda as a politician. In the European context it is partly "He is also very friendly" or "he is close to popular concerns", if you wish. There is no evidence that he takes an interest in football when he cannot appear in the media thanks to this pretext. I added "Although originally a binational, he renounced French citizenship, probably in order to avoid conscription." Avoiding conscription was a very common concern amongst leftists at that time. I have added a paragraph about his accisations of pedophilia, which I checked several times, from opponents and supporters websites.--Arnaudherve 06:18, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I begin importing data from his autobiography in French, which I found on this university page. obviously it will need editing after this raw import.--Arnaudherve 06:37, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I removed one of the "leader" words in the last sentence of third paragraph, for style and also in order to be more neutral. I added the names of the two other leaders. I added "to a certain extent influenced by the anti Viet-Nam war counter-culture from the United States" to describe the student atmosphere of that time. By "counter-culture" I mean not only protests against Viet-Nam war, but also new forms of pop music, Joan Baez... I hope somebody will be able to put that in better English.--Arnaudherve 08:08, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I have added a paragraph to account for his 2004 election. The considerable shift to the Right of German Greens, and the center-right positionning of Cohn-Bendit on the French political spectrum seemed to objective enough to mention them. I have added a few words about the terrorism controversy, because it led to an official procedure in the European Parliament.--Arnaudherve 13:23, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

At the end of the article, "his pro-European attitudes" is too vague. Precisely it is part of his political image, his trademark, to be transnational. "Pro-European" can mean staying in your country in voting in favour of Europe. If somebody finds a good phrase to express that, go ahead. I have changed the word "deported" into "expelled", because it could lead to some confusion, in respect of his Jewish origins. In his own autobiography on his website he just uses the word "expelled". I add a few paragraphs about his 1967 - 68 activities, plus about his 2004 and 2005 European activities. It is time to make chapters, but I don't know how to do it. I propose Childhood - May 1968 - The Frankfurt Years - European MP. --Arnaudherve 03:26, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I have transformed "In that group was also his friend Joschka Fischer" into "From then on his fate was linked to Joschka Fischer, another leader in the group", in order to introduce the later cooperations in the Green party. I have divided "the Frankfurt Years" in two new chapters in order to account more specifically on the entry in the Green Party.--Arnaudherve 16:58, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I have made a new chapter about the European constitution campaign. Someone should improve the bibliography too.--Arnaudherve 18:00, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I regret the addition of the slanted judgements in the parenthesis of "Both were later to become leaders of the Realo (i.e. pragmatical) wing (more moderate than the Fundis) of the German Green Party". From certain aspects the Realos could be labelled extremists and the Fundis moderate. The two together (pragmatical and more moderate) tend to suggest that it is the reliable part in a political conflict. Therefore I suggest removing those parenthesis and rewriting "Both were later to become of the Realo wing of the German Green Party", keeping a link on "Realo" for the readers who might be interested, and explaining the conflict more appropriately there.--Arnaudherve 07:34, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I have doubts about the assertion that DCB went to St Nazaire on 10 May 1968 - he attended and spoke at the 13 May demo in Paris (widely known, and asserted in books such as those cited), and later that week went to St Nazaire. He held a meeting on the evening of the 18th in St Nazaire, then a discussion on the beach the next day (Sunday 19th).

Does anyone know his precise movements in between these dates?

Current citizenship

Is DCB now a dual citizen? I presume so, since he's run for public office in both countries, but the article only mentions that "he renounced [French citizenship] in order to avoid conscription." 24.11.127.26 (talk) 01:11, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

He is German, not French. As a European citizen, he could be a candidate in European elections in any European country. Another inaccuracy is that he did not create a party. Europe-Ecologie is not a party, but some kind of coalition created specially for those elections. This is an important fact considering the political context... Hypnl (talk) 12:00, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

As born in France he could have been French if he would have requested it. But he renounced. He is not French, and if he want to become French he will need to make as every non French. With EU he doesn't need the nationality to be elected in a country --Hercule (talk) 12:07, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Cohn-Bendit case in the Conseil d’État, 1989

In the course of my studies of European law, I came across this case Conseil d’État, 20 October 1989, [1990] 1 Common Market Law Report 173. It concerns a deportation order by France against Daniel Cohn-Bendit (then a German citizen resident in France) on 24 May 1968. Cohn-Bendit sought to return to France to take up employment in 1975. – Kaihsu (talk) 13:10, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Chienlit

De Gaulle referred to Bendit's activities as "Chi–en–lit" [shit–in–bed]. This was due to the fact that he saw the 1968 disturbances as a mere example of people damaging the country in which they live. Is it appropriate to mention this in the article?Lestrade (talk) 19:54, 29 April 2010 (UTC)Lestrade

Nationality

I just watched an interview with him and he said that he holds only one nationality: German. That is confirmed by the body of text of this article. But is it accurate to describe him in the lead as a "Franco-German politician"? --Tachfin (talk) 05:42, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

His roots are in both countries and he is politically active in both countries. Therefore it's accurate.Henrig (talk) 22:27, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

About my recent reverted edits related to this topic. The term 'Franco-German' is ambiguous and inaccurate, it leads to think he has dual-citizenship, though he hasn't. 'French-born German' is very clear, he may have been born in France, spent whatever amount of time in France, but only holds German citizenship which is accurate. Else someone states CLEARLY that 'Franco-German' deals with a perceived nationality, something he may not think about himself, and also add that 'German' is his only citizenship. The French wiki is very clear about that, it states "Daniel Cohn-Bendit [...] is a politician of German citizenship, mainly active politically and in the media in France" 82.66.53.39 (talk) 09:49, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

that's exactly right. Apparently he had French citizenship as a kid (being born in France to German parents), then chose German citizenship when he was 16. So he is a German citizen of German descent who even actively renounced French citizenship and opted for German one; that would seem to make the case pretty clear. --dab (𒁳) 07:51, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Bandit sold as Socialist?

He is clearly pro-capitalism and so should not be called and categorised as "Socialist" - of course this is a general problem of definition since also parties and the current pers. Hollande comes from a party that calls itself Socialist. If a person does accept capitalist organisation of an economy - at least in big business - I suggest to cancel the use of such misleading definitions and use always the term "so-called socialist" or "anti-socialist socialist" or something like this. 13:41, 5 September 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edgar8 (talk • contribs)

Do you have a particular suggestion for the article, or are you just having a rant, in which case this is not the forum? Mezigue (talk) 18:03, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Allegations of Paedophilia

--User:Winniewoo 16:36, 23 March 2009 I wanted to add this section but it was removed each time I tried. I would like to add it because it is an important part of the public record about Her C-B that he has these views on sex with children and that these have informed part of the Green policy debate. The references are all attributed and I think the content is fair - please let me know if you disagree but surely don't take the reference out and call it 'vandalism' and then get the page protected.

While Fischer was more concerned with demonstrations, Cohn-Bendit worked in the Karl-Marx-Buchhandlung bookshop and ran a kindergarten, with the stated ambition of "radically transforming German mentalities". Later in 2001 he was accused of pedophilia.

This accusation was grounded on the following citation from his book Le grand bazar, published in Munich in 1976: "It happened to me several times that certain kids opened my fly and started to stroke me. I reacted differently according to circumstances, but their desire posed a problem for me. I asked them: 'Why don't you play together? Why have you chosen me, and not the other kids?' But if they insisted, I caressed them still." The children were between five and eight years' old.

On the 31st of January. 2001 in the Berlin newspaper "BZ" [4] published open letter to Cohn-Bendit demanding he give a clear clarification as to whether there was actual physical contact with the children. The Berliner Zeitung published Cohn-Bendit's response. He said that he was "not aware of the problem". "We tried," ..."in a collective discourse of a new sexual morality yet to be defined." The reported sex scenes, were a "me-oriented self-reflection". Cohn-Bendit, did not say there was no sexual contact with children.

In the 1980s the Greens experimented with various policies which would decriminalize sex with children. At its national conference in Lüdenscheid (March 1985) the Greens in North Rhine-Westphalia called for "nonviolent sexuality" between children and adults never to be subject to criminal prosecution. In 1987 the policy was " When young people have the desire for older peers outside the family, prevented either because their homosexuality is not accepted by their parents, or because they have pädosexuelle inclinations, be it for other reasons, they must be given the opportunity to do so. " Excerpt from the electoral list, Berlin, 1985 . --User:Winniewoo 16:36, 23 March 2009 Winniewoo (talk) 16:44, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Please read Wikipedia's policy concerning biographies of living persons. "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons—whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion." (emphasis in original)

Your allegations contained no specific references to verifiable reliable sources. That's the reason your paragraphs about allegations of pedophilia were removed from the article. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 17:38, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Q. Winniewoo, 26th March 2009: Why are i) the published work of the person themselves and ii) open letters to and from the person themselves, in a well known publication not considered a reliable source? 81.141.101.130 (talk) 00:17, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Where and when were they published? Please read WP:V and WP:RS, the relevant policy and guidelines concerning sources. Merely asserting that something has been published isn't sufficient. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 00:50, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

A. Winniewoo - I think this now shows when and where they were published, the links to sources, translations, ISBN numbers and links to sites where the sources can be verified objectively:

I removed the section on the supposed policies of the Greens in North Rhine Westphalia, firstly because the reference given is unverifiable, and secondly because a reference given from 1985 (The 'Berlin Electoral List') can't possibly describe events in 1987.Dean Morrison (talk) 18:50, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Rest assured that it's common knowledge among German intellectuals that a certain vocal faction within the Greens had dabbled in pedophilia within the framework of the self-finding process of a new political party. Mr. Bendit played a role here. All well documented. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.118.139.77 (talk) 13:13, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Text

While Fischer was more concerned with demonstrations, Cohn-Bendit worked in the Karl-Marx-Buchhandlung bookshop and ran a kindergarten (of children between five and eight years' old). Later in 2001 he was accused of pedophilia. This accusation was grounded on the following citation from his 1975 book Le Grand Bazar, : "It happened to me several times that certain kids opened my fly and started to stroke me. I reacted differently according to circumstances, but their desire posed a problem for me. I asked them: 'Why don't you play together? Why have you chosen me, and not the other kids?' But if they insisted, I caressed them still."

On the 31st of January, 2001 in the Berlin newspaper published open letter to Cohn-Bendit from the former German Foreign Minister, Klaus Kinkel, demanding Cohn-Bendit clarify whether there was actual physical contact with the children . The Berliner Zeitung published Cohn-Bendit's response. He said that he was "not aware of the problem" (“das Problem nicht bewusst”). "We tried," ..."a collective discourse of a new sexual morality yet to be defined"( “in einem kollektiven Diskurs eine neue Sexualmoral zu defineiren”). The reported sex scenes, were a "me-oriented self-reflection" (“ich-bezogene Selbstreflexion”). Cohn-Bendit, did not say there was no sexual contact with children. When interviewed on the 28th January, 2001 by ”The Observer” Cohn-Bendit told the journalist, “I admit that what I wrote is unacceptable nowadays.”

In the 1980s the Greens experimented with various policies which would decriminalize sex with children. At its national conference in Lüdenscheid (March 1985) the Greens in North Rhine-Westphalia called for "nonviolent sexuality" between children and adults never to be subject to criminal prosecution. In 1987 the policy was " When young people have the desire for older peers outside the family, prevented either because their homosexuality is not accepted by their parents, or because they have pädosexuelle inclinations, be it for other reasons, they must be given the opportunity to do so. " . 81.141.101.130 (talk) 21:11, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Notes

Winniewoo (talk) 21:15, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Winniewoo: I think we have consensus now so this is added with compliance over policy - verifiable high value citation references and translations etc. Winniewoo (talk) 11:18, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I think the text is rather good. So i translated it for the german wiki. now i'm banned. i still don't understand that something which seems to be ok here, is seen as a fascisctic smear campaign there. it's sad. Heinz333 (talk) 13:24, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

High Quality Source

Der Spiegel also publishes in English.

Please read form Escapades onwards http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,702679-2,00.html

and from 'An Incredibly Erotic Game' onwards http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,702679-3,00.html

According to Der Spiegel, this should be labeled sexual abuse of children, not pedophilia. --80.187.106.48 (talk) 16:56, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

technically, he advocated korephilia, sexual interest in pre-pubescent girls, but ICD-10 apparently classifies this as "pedophilia" too. In Wikipedia's terminology, what he did engage in was "pedophilia activism". --dab (𒁳) 10:19, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, it isn't clear he is "accused of pedophilia" (pedophile acts), he claims it was all just a "provocative male fantasy" and never happened, and people who knew him and his subculture at the time agree that this is likely to be true. The Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung likes to cast some doubt on whether it isn't a little cheap to just claim it was all "a provocation" when he clearly seemst to have been obsessed with talking about the eroticism of five-year-old girls over years. But as long as no victim steps forward, he isn't directly accused of the act. What is beyond question is the fact that he chose to advocate pedophila regardless of whether he actually engaged in it. And this will probably be enough to cause a stir, and likely end his career, in the current moral climate.

Personally I find it more remarkable that in the 2010s, it is no problem to elect somebody to the European Parliament who was openly active in the "Revolutionary Struggle" (viz., had the professed intention to destroy the state) in his youth, but woe betide if he made inappropriate sexual comments. In a sane society, his political past would decide if he was to be trusted to do political work, while his sexual behaviour would be a private matter, to be discussed if and only if it he is accused of a crime. But clearly this isn't how things work. Future generations will no doubt find this extremely weird and disturbingly irrational.

The far-left subculture at the time argued for radical sexual liberation and tried to include all sexual acts as long as it didn't involve "violence" as legitimate, including "consensal" relations with children. Needless to say, this isn't acceptable (even to leftists) from today's perspective, but that's what they openly advocated until 1985 or so. They now say it was all intended as "provocation", so to speak to piss off the bourgeoisie, which may well have been an aspect which spurred them to exaggerating their demands, but at that core this was what they advocated. For some reason, acceptance of homosexuality became mainstream while pedophilia conversely became completely taboo. Current morality for some reason makes it equally unacceptable to even hint you have reservations about homosexuality and to even hint you may entertain the possibility of pre-pubescent sexuality. Both are taboos and as such irrational, of course, and it will be left to future sociologists to unravel what happened here. --dab (𒁳) 10:05, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

it is interesting (myPOV) that he attended Odenwaldschule a school that has it's own history of sexual child abuse scandels78.42.252.102 (talk) 00:33, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Citizenship

Don't say that he is a "French German" if he does not hold French citizenship, it is misleading. Note that the French version refers to him as a "German politician".

German wiki calls him "German French", because he was born in France in lived there many years. In fact, ever person born in France gets the french citizenship, like Cohn-Bendits Brother. Danials citizenship was denied because of his german citizenship an his communism attitude in the past. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.143.83.8 (talk) 00:47, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

No, for people with no french parents the French citizenship is not automatic. It must be requested (or chosen if you prefer). DCB was forbidden to live in France during 10 years. This would not be possible if he was French ! --Hercule (talk) 08:53, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Daniel Cohn-Bendit obtain the french nationality in May 2015 : Daniel Cohn Bendit obtain the french nationality --Brunok (talk) 23:05, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

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nitpicky edit

I changed "national" to "nationwide" in "national anarchist federation Fédération anarchiste". "National Anarchist" is something very specific and very different. The FA, which still exists, would not be amused. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.191.155.249 (talk) 21:37, 9 July 2007 (UTC)