Talk:Coccinellidae

British English vs. North American

Looks like some edit warring has broke out recently related to these edits by SummerKrut. LittleJerry, is there are reason why you consider those edits unhelpful? That edit summaries stating that aren't particularly helpful.

It does seem like a decent attempt at clarification at least. Ladybug is used in North America, but other British-English influenced areas often use ladybird. Specifying both North American and Commonwealth English does seem to give better balance at least. It does at least seem like an improvement over elsewhere in the English-speaking world at least. KoA (talk) 14:08, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

@LittleJerry, please explain yourself. Summer ^talk 16:30, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm not LittleJerry, but the last time I looked, Canada was part of North America, so there is no reason to complicate the text that way. The original text is correct, as phrased: in North America, they're ladybugs. Dyanega (talk) 18:40, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes. "....commonly known as ladybugs in North America and ladybirds elsewhere in the English-speaking world" is perfectly accurate and simple. Why is "Commonwealth" more accurate? LittleJerry (talk) 19:12, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) SummerKrut could maybe explain more of their intent, but what I'm seeing is the focus on basically WP:ENGVAR in the updated text. The main idea I see is really that ladybird is commonly used with the British variant of English, but North America uses lady bug. The new text at least looked to be an attempt to be more accurate as it's really countries with British influence that use ladybird rather than just saying elsewhere in the English-speaking world. The old version really didn't address that.

Here's how I'd tweak the new edits though, They are commonly known as ladybugs in North America and ladybirds in most countries that use British English;. . . No need to mention Canada since it already specifies North America (and the linked article says more), but it adds in the British influence link. A minor change, but it looks like a pretty clear improvement attempt that SummerKrut started that makes a lot of sense when you dig into it. KoA (talk) 19:39, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't think we need to get pedantic on the naming of English-speaking countries in an article about a group of insects. "English-speaking world" probably means to UK, US, Canada, Ireland, Australia and New Zealand in most people's minds, particularly since these are the countries where it is the first language. See Anglosphere. LittleJerry (talk) 20:25, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Pedancy is what the text avoids compared to the uncertainty (i.e., "probably") you mention. The point is that "elsewhere" is vague, so why be purposely vague when we can very easily WP:FIXIT. The previous version of that text also called out Britain specifically, which was lost at some point, so the wikilink helps restore that without really adding a bunch of extra text. Britain is really where that name got its start as the article gets into later, so it is a bit of a WP:DUE issue too. KoA (talk) 21:13, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

LittleJerry, please don't introduce errors as you did here. This has already been addressed, but it's not only American English since Canada uses ladybug, and it's not just the strict-sense British English that uses ladybird, it's instead the larger commonwealth English. Please be more careful with terminology here. KoA (talk) 21:50, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

The sources discuss British and American English. Nothing else. LittleJerry (talk) 22:24, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

LittleJerry, please realize it's extremely disruptive to introduce clear errors into an FA, and I cautioned about this kind of edit warring prior to the FA nom. I'm in part here because of how I saw the behavior coming up again in your interactions with SummerKrut, and this escalation isn't helping for protecting the article from that kind of thing. Slow down and stop your editing warring in an FA. You were made aware you were introducing errors in that last edit from this talk page discussion, and that needs to be stop. If you're opposed to minor improvements that's one thing, but we can't be making the content even less accurate like in your edits.

Instead, please engage with the material itself. Ladybug is used in North American English (i.e., US and Canada) not just American English (i.e., primarily US). The whole reason for simply saying it is used in North America is because people can often be confused by that as I assume you were. That's why I cautioned about pedantry, especially if using terms incorrectly. The other half is that British English is a multi-use term. It tends to refer to English used in the UK or even smaller regions within, but referring to former colonies or larger use is more accurately as Commonwealth English. That's why British-English was linking there in this context. The article you want linked even addressed that here, which was the whole point of the wikilinks to avoid going into a whole explanation in-article.

If it were as simple as just the US using ladybug and the UK using ladybird, then we could just simply say American vs. British English as you tried, but that's not how the subject matter lies. Australia is another commonwealth country that uses ladybird, though it doesn't use the strict-sense British English. That's why the commonwealth term was used instead. There are other terms that could be attempted like British-English influenced countries, but that doesn't quite work because of Canada. Instead, the commonwealth linked article goes into detail about how Canada tends to differ, and the first sentence at this article already specifies North America (i.e., Canada and the US for this topic) uses ladybug. There's a lot going on behind this little sentence, and we avoid pedantry by dealing with the legitimate issue SummerKrut started in on. Let the linked articles do that lifting for us (and use them correctly). We need to be accurate and deal with this even if the process is called pedantic so readers have both an accurate and concise sentence or two. Right now, there haven't been legitimate issues brought up with SummerKrut's or my proposed versions, especially when weighting alternatives with the above. KoA (talk) 23:25, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Just a followup note I've restored the text back to the rough original from a few months ago that just simply says North America and Great Britain. Thanks again to SummerKrut for catching that. If someone wants to deal with the larger topic of other English-speaking countries, that is really the base that needs to be worked from. That's as much as I intend to do for now since it's a holiday over here. KoA (talk) 23:38, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

So we now have an American editor deciding that the English-speaking world is a) North America b) Great Britain. And in an FA!. Sorry Ireland, Nigeria, Jamaica, Uganda, Australia, New Zealand, Fiji, South Africa, and many others, you just don't count (I'm surprised now that Great Britain was included, although I note that the rest of the United Kingdom isn't. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:44, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, earlier I did caution editors about behavior in FA articles (or during the FA process for this one).

Right now we're back at the status quo language that had been previously agreed on even if not ideal. The two names either have their primary basis in the North American English ladybug or the Commonwealth influenced English with ladybird. What you bring up is why I was concerned about just saying "the rest of the English-speaking world" because it can get into assumptions. At least in the version I was supporting, those countries would have been covered, but we're stuck only mentioning Great Britain or North America now. KoA (talk) 20:31, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 July 2023

Change the word "expect" to "except". Glen Di Persio (talk) 23:27, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done RudolfRed (talk) 00:02, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

"In Culture" section

I noticed that the "In Culture" section only references one book, which I couldn't find the text of online. I know that usually it's best practice to add accessible sources if possible, so I went looking for "Himmelska nycla," which the article claims is a Swedish name for them, and the only pages that had that phrase were clearly taken straight from this article. Not even anything in Swedish. The other claims would be more difficult to look into since they're not very specific search terms, at least with my ability. What can we do next to help reinforce or check that section? FroggyLee (talk) 23:34, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Worth checking carefully. I removed the "Indra's cowherd" statement - the original Sanskrit word "Indragopa" is generally thought to refer to the red velvet mite. Shyamal (talk) 02:57, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

From the source: "Among the Swedish names is Himmelska nyckla - the Keys of Heaven". LittleJerry (talk) 01:32, 5 August 2023 (UTC)