Talk:Clotted cream

Removals

I have removed the following:

"Argument exists between Devon and Cornwall as to which "invented" clotted cream and also the etiquette of cream teas. In Cornwall the jam is spread on the scone (or split - a type of bread roll) first, and then the cream, whilst in Devon the order is reversed. The advantage of the former is to allow the jam to soak into the scone whilst the latter maximises the amount of cream that can be applied."

If this is to be said anywhere, it should be on the cream tea page. But in any case, unless credible evidence can be brought forward for a consistent different of practice between Devon and Cornwall in this matter, this tale is not worth including. As a long time resident in Devon and a frequent visitor to Cornwall, with a fondness for cream teas, I have encountered both practices in both counties. I'm sure different families have different habits as with most things to do with food. seglea 21:52, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the following, added by an anon:

My name is Krystal and I just went to Devon County over the summer and I had the most delicious clotted cream in the world. It was very good. Especially with the scones and the strawberry jam and the Devonshire cream tea. The scones looked exactly like Kentucky Fried Chicken (KFC) biscuits (for those of you who do not know what those are, they are biscuits from a fast food fried chicken restaurant. It is in America, but there are some countries in Europe that also have KFCs.) Clotted cream comes from jersey cows, you cannot buy them on eBay. (Trust me, I've tried.) That makes me very sad because I want a jersey cow for myself to make my own, homemade, clotted cream. Thank you, that is all. I will expand more on this topic later. (and my experience with clotted cream.) Have a nice day! PEACE

Krystal, it's nice to hear about your experiences, but they don't really belong in Wikipedia's article - maybe on your blog. seglea 23:17, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

It's rather amusing to suppose that Krystal reads Talk pages. PEACE! Pqrstuv 06:26, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

what is the difference between clotted cream and devon cream? could someone please included information on both? inTHANKSvance

that would be adTHANKSvance, i.e. THANKS "in" ad-vance, not THANKS "in" in-vance.

Simply, in the UK, there isn't one! Mdcollins1984 09:58, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

The Devon Cream Company makes a distinction. They sell Devon cream and clotted cream as two distinct products. I'll remove the sentence which claims that they're identical but in the US but I'm afraid I won't be able to replace it with correct information.

How does clotted cream differ from the American "cream cheese"? grahamharbison 00:24, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Clotted cream is actually nice? :) Perhaps think of very thick whipped cream, so that it has the texture of a thick mousse. Then top it off with a small crust. Sounds weird, but it's very good! On the other hand, from my limited experience, cream cheese is often treated as more a savoury product. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.20.49.152 (talk) 21:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Where isn't it available?

"When clotted cream is not commercially available..." - this implies that there are places where you can't easily get hold of the stuff. (I'm British, so don't have this problem.) Where might those places be? You don't see "When ranch dressing is not commercially available" on its page, after all, despite the fact that many people in the UK have never heard of it! 86.143.48.55 (talk) 18:48, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I can say it't not easy to get in the US. I believe it's because most of the states have a law prohibiting the sale of raw "unpasteurized" milk and milk products (cheese is an expection in some places as long as it has been aged more than 60 days). I think pasteurization makes it much harder to produce clotted cream. I also think it's a shelf life thing. If I'm not mistaken (and I could be wrong), but I had heard that it doesn't keep for very long, only a few days, so it's not likely to be sold in the supermarket. Now, my question for you is... what does it taste like? I've always wanted to try it, but as I said, it's hard to come by on this side of the pond. -- Di 69.27.229.11 (talk) 20:08, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I have found it at Publix and Fresh Market (I live in Florida). It is made by Devon Cream Co. and is described as "Pasteurized clotted cream from cow's milk". Could they pasteurize it after it is clotted? Barnaby the Scrivener (talk) 15:52, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

I think the statement: "Despite its popularity virtually none is produced by or exported to the USA, due to difficulty with its shelf life." Anderson, Lisa (23 January 1985). "'Clotted cream' caviar of dairy". Ottawa Citizen. Retrieved 3 December 2010. should be removed. In spite of its attribution (published in 1985, you will note), it is no longer correct. In fact, my family has been buying imported clotted cream here in the U.S. since the 60s at least. I'm in the San Francisco area, and it was available at English import places and tea shops when I was a tot. It's availabe all over the place now, still imported from the UK. So, the statement may have been published, but it was in error even at the time it was first pubbed and should be taken outZlama (talk) 00:59, 11 February 2011 (UTC).

Well, virtually none is not the same as none, and the statement is sourced. English import places is hardly a mass market (to the best of my knowledge), but if you have a source which confirms that there is a significant amount of clotted cream imported to the US, then I agree we should be putting it in. Unfortunately, anecdotal evidence is not sufficient. Worm^TT 09:39, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting adding my anecdotal evidence, merely that this questionable statement, sourced or not, published or not, adds nothing to the article. Wherever I've lived in the U.S. -- California most of my life Arizona in the late 70s and Maryland at the time the article that statement is from was published -- I could buy it in any number of places. IOW, pretty readily available. So, the statement is obviously incorrect, and that is good reason remove it.Zlama (talk) 07:15, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

It's a little difficult for me to comment, since I haven't lived in USA since I was a child and for all I know ever supermarket has massive displays of clotted cream every week. All I have is a source which says different. I added "in 1985" as a qualifier, but I feel the prevelance of the cream in the UK but lack in the US is relevent and does add to the article. Worm^TT 09:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Just revisiting this article again and see that this statement is still there! Your source is 30 years old! This would be the same as saying that at some point in time, Italian olive oil or French Camembert is not commercially available in the U.S. based on some decades old source, IOW, ridiculous. What was -- erroneously, I might add -- stated in a 30 year old source, adds nothing to this article and certainly compromises its accuracy. If someone else doesn't remove this, I will. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zlama (talk • contribs) 00:13, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Devonshire cream tea???

I have to question whether the term 'devonshire cream tea' is in general use - I live in Devon and I've never come across this term before. The few occasions when I've heard the term 'Devonshire' used in serious conversation is when someone (generally someone not native to Britain) genuinely doesn't know that Devon isn't a Shire county.

Also, how is this relevant to the topic? This, like the issue of whether cream or jam goes on first, shouldn't be on the clotted cream page. Rather if it is deemed to be a pertinent piece of information it should surely be on the cream tea page. Crydwyn (talk) 19:38, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I can't say where I originally saw "Devonshire cream tea," but I do know it was in several books, set in England, that I had read. In fact, when a friend and I made up our list of must do/see for our trip to England many years ago, a Devonshire cream tea was on the list for both of us.  ;) Of course, we read many of the same authors...it really just means a cream tea in Devon. As for Devon"shire," can't really comment on the correctness or otherwise of the adjective, but that's the way it was stated in the books we both had read so you know where it came from, at least. Zlama (talk) 00:19, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

'Devonshire Tea' (not so much 'Devonshire Cream Tea') is widely used in Australia and New Zealand for what approximates a 'Cream Tea' in the UK. As in much of the upcountry parts of the UK, however, the Antipodean version uses thickened or whipped cream, not clotted cream, which is not available downunder. Also, although a look at the 'Devon' article confirms that the county hasd never officially been a 'shire', the 'Devonshire' variant of the name has been used for centuries in all sorts of contexts such as names of regiments, the Duchy, etc.

Broken link

Resolved

 – References updated. Cavrdg (talk) 21:10, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

As the header says, the external link at the bottom doesn't point to what it should do. 87.194.40.167 (talk) 20:15, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Mode of production

Is the heating of unpasteurised milk to form clotted cream using the same or similar process as in the production of curds (specifically, with lactic acid bacteria promoting the process)? 92.39.196.35 (talk) 00:34, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

No, this is a totally different process. I got the same result by accidentally leaving a carton of heavy cream out on top of the fridge overnight -- a very thick, buttery cream had risen to the top. For curds, you need an acidifier (I guess that's the term), like lemon juice or added lactic acid or something similar. Clotted cream isn't really "clotted" but is smooth and thick, spreadable, so not at all like curds. HTH. Zlama (talk) 00:22, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Unpasteurized?

Unpasteurized or raw milk is available for sale in the United States if you know where to look. My question is whether people mean unpasteurized or homogenized milk... Pasteurization kills microbes present in the milk, whereas homogenization makes the fat cells smaller and more uniform to keep the cream from separating from the milk... Can someone clear this up for me? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Riboflavin2 (talk • contribs) 15:01, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Clotted cream does have to be made from unpasteurized milk - the pasteurization does have enough effect on the fat cells to prevent it clotting properly. My mum has old cookery books from pre-homogenization days which say to use unpasteurized for clotted cream. DuncanHill (talk) 21:04, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

I inadvertently made "clotted cream" when I left a carton of whipping cream on top of the fridge in warm weather - that's stadard U.S. pasteurized cream. At the top of the carton was thick, spreadable cream-stuff just like the clotted cream I've had in England. The warm weather, even the warmth put out by the refrigerator, probably qualifies as the "indirect" heat source required. I've done this intentionally as well, and it always works. So, can be pasteurized, but you probably need to start with cream.Zlama (talk) 00:51, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm a little dubious about this anecdote. I believe that you may have warmed pasteurized whipping cream to thicken and found a reasonable substitute, but that is not "clotted cream" which is produced in a specific way and includes the crust and unique flavour. I'm afraid we'd have to have a reliable source to contradict the multiple sources we've got which says different. Worm^TT 09:42, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Sorry if this is patronizing, but, Worm honey, you seem to have mistaken this conversation page for actual changes to the article. I'm just giving my experience with pasteurized cream, and please note that I did not apply heat, it was in a warm spot, as opposed to direct heat from a stove burner. One of the reason the "true" clotted cream made in the trad way has the crust is because it is made in large, shallow pans with probably 25% of the liquid exposed to the air where it dries out a bit. I've seen photos of the process, and I wish I could find one to add to this article. But the pan used is more on the order of a jellyroll pan, only copper and a bit deeper than that. In homes, the pan would be put at the back of the stove where it would get the warmth from cooking but not be subjected to direct heat. So, a carton of cream sitting on top of a refrigerator on a warm day would have the indirect heat put out by the refrigerator itself, as well as the warm ambient temp, as indirect heat sources. Once again, note that I started with cream.Zlama (talk) 07:32, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I have no problem with patronising comments, indeed the clarity is helpful for newer users. Humour, if you will, my response. The purpose of a talk page in wikipedia is to discuss improvements to the article not a general discussion forum for the topic. In other words, this isn't a "conversation" page (see more at Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines and WP:NOTFORUM). You are absolutely right about the process and what you have created at home is a reasonable substitute and may well be useful to include in the wiki cook book. However, it's still not clotted cream which does require unpasteurized milk, large shallow pans and indirect heat - per a number of sources. So, if I may re-iterate, if you believe the substitute should be included in the article, it will need to be sourced. If you are just looking to discuss the cream or the substitute, this really isn't the place to do it. Worm^TT 09:12, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Ha! See we've gone around about this before. When I give you "negative" anecdotal evidence, it is simply to say that there is a problem with the way things in the article, per this Talk topic, as published. I'm never suggesting you add that Zlama says... I'm not sure where your definition is coming from. Is it as stated in the PDO requirements? Or is it something more like historical usage, i.e., this is the way the first clotted cream was made? It seems all moot for those of us outside the UK, since "clotted cream" imported from the UK has been available here for (wow!) more than 50 years, and is pasteurized (whether before or after production, I have no way of knowing). So, a clotted cream from the UK, which exists some way down the continuum from the original, strict definition of clotted cream, is still being called "clotted cream" by UK sources. So, where is this definition coming from? Could you give the source of the definition, in so many words, here, in response to my question, if not in the article.

And it seems this Talk page is kind of out of line with the now existing format of this article, because there is no "Clotted cream" section, rather that's the subject of the article. Zlama (talk) 00:42, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

How Cornish clotted cream was made.

Before I came to live in west Cornwall, I often stayed on the farm near Zennor belonging to an old friend of the family. Almost all the farms in the area were dairy farms, and most of the cows were Channel Islands breed (Guernseys and Jerseys) which produce very high-fat milk. In those days milking was all done by hand, and every day a couple of pints of fresh milk were put in an aluminium dish on the side of the AGA (a solid fuel range cooker) which raised the milk to about blood heat. By teatime in the afternoon the cream would have gently risen forming a crust on top of the quite stiff cream, with a little watery milk below. The cream was carefully lifted off and put on the tea table, where it would be devoured with great relish. (Always cream on the splits - never scones - then the jam.)

It was always my understanding that Devon cream is produced by heating the milk to a much higher temperature (even to boiling point?) and the resultant flavour is very different. Cristofa (talk) 15:11, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Article rewrite

Just want to thank User:Worm That Turned for the rewrite and expansion of this article. I think it's definitely at least C-class now. Maybe needs a description of what the cream looks and tastes like (for those poor souls who have never tried it!). I've also bumped it up to mid-importance for Wikiproject Devon as it regularly appears near the top of the popular pages list.  —SMALLJIM  23:50, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Glad I could help! Was glancing down the Cornish popular pages list, looking for Doom Bar and was unimpressed to see such a popular page as a stub. Running out of things to say about it though, which is a pity, because I was hoping for 5x expansion... DYK!Worm 11:58, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

There we go, think I've done it! Worm 13:25, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

If you don't object I've got a few more changes that I think would improve it a bit. For instance I think there should be a Description section (which can be expanded) separate from History. I'll start now, if you've finished for a while!  —SMALLJIM  13:33, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

That I have. I've been wracking my brains for anything more to put in, so please do add anything you can think of. Also, I've just submitted it to DYK today, feel free to add your name there! Worm 14:01, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Calories & portion size

Re: "A 100 grams (3.5 oz) portion provides 586 kilocalories (2,450 kJ) (roughly equivalent to a 200 grams (7.1 oz) cheeseburger)" - now I love clotted cream as much as any one, but a 3.5 oz portion? That's ridiculous, far too big. DuncanHill (talk) 13:58, 3 December 2010 (UTC) Rodda's (who have an interest in getting people to eat as much of it as possible) recommend allowing 30-40g per portion. DuncanHill (talk) 14:02, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

I'd absolutely agree, I'll change it, so that it's not "a portion", since it comes in 100g tubs, I doubt anyone would have a tub to themselves! silly mistakeWorm 14:03, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, that looks better. DuncanHill (talk) 14:08, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Importance rating for Wikiproject

I've changed the importance rating for WP:Cornwall to Top - "Places, icons or topics recognisable or of interest to the whole UK or further", as I think clotted cream is probably one of the first things many people around the world will think of when Cornwall is mentioned. DuncanHill (talk) 14:12, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Then it's definitely a good thing the article has been improved... I do agree with you by the wayWorm 14:17, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, and thanks too for doing so much to improve the article. DuncanHill (talk) 14:27, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Two thank yous in as many days? I should sort out more high profile articles! No problems by the way :) Worm 14:33, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

A tin from the 70s

Would this photo of a tin that was used to send clotted cream through the post from Devon in the 1970s be worth adding to the article? Back then, it was a popular thing for people on holiday to send, and locals used to send it to their friends for Christmas, birthdays etc. - which is how I got it. Google tells me that you can still send "clotted cream by post", but I don't think it's as popular as it used to be.  —SMALLJIM  20:39, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea, to show that it has been around for a while. I'd probably suggest putting it in the historic usages section, with a caption summarizing what you just said above. Worm 07:33, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

OK, I've added that and a bit of explanation to the text. I tinkered around with the article a fair bit too, but I've stopped myself now.  —SMALLJIM  13:08, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Clotted cream/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Pyrotec (talk) 16:33, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

I will review. Pyrotec (talk) 16:33, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry for the delay, I tend to do more than one review at a time and there were some over-runs. Pyrotec (talk) 12:24, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Overall summary

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

---

An informative and well referenced article.

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   Well referenced.

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   Well referenced, as a whole but I would have expected a citation for the claim, in the second of these two sentences: "As clotted cream is not regularly available outside South West England, there are a number of ways to create an approximation. One example is to mix mascarpone with whipped cream, a little sugar and vanilla extract."

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

   Well illustrated.

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

I'm awarding this article GA-status. Congratulations on producing an informative and well-referenced article on this food topic. Pyrotec (talk) 12:24, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Pre-FAC comments

Here are some thoughts on how the article can be improved before we submit it to FAC:

Resolved comments

"Because of its high saturated fat content, especially relative to other creams such as single cream, which has a fat content of 18%, clotted cream is often considered to be bad for health." This sentence wrongly implies that the difference between the fat contents is what makes clotted cream unhealthy. I suggest rephrasing to avoid this implication; it may help to split this into two sentences.  Done I've had a go at rephrasing, but is "For comparison" acceptable? "Originally made by farmers to reduce the amount of waste from their milk, clotted cream has become so deep-rooted in the culture that it is now a tourist attraction." The culture of what? I would surmise that a good number of readers will skip directly to the History section; those readers won't have idea what the context of this sentence is.  Done "It is possible that it was introduced to Cornwall 2,000 years ago, when Phoenician traders went there looking for tin" The meaning of "2,000 years ago" is ambiguous. Does it mean 2000 years before 2011, or 2000 years before 1881 (publication date of the source)? I would prefer something along the lines of "around 200 BC" or some such. Alternatively, the issue can be sidestepped by a more substantial rephrasing: "It is possible that it was introduced to Cornwall by Phoenician traders, who ventured to the area in search of tin."  Done - It's clear Phoenicia is an ancient civilization by clicking on the link Does "thermographic records" refer to Thermographic inspection? If so, I suggest linking.  Done - not thermographic inspection, it appears that a "thermograph" is a type of chart that that records temperature.[1] I've think I've clarified this.

• "An eulogy on a can of cream sent from a lady in Exeter." Shouldn't this say "a eulogy" rather than "an eulogy"? Perhaps there is a difference in pronunciation between British and American English, but I've never seen "an eulogy".

  A quickie answer to the "An eulogy" question: that's the title of the poem according to the source. I'm not sure if the title should be displayed in quotes or italics - need to check the MOS.  —SMALLJIM  19:35, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

• "There is evidence that the monks of Tavistock Abbey were making clotted cream in the early 1300s. After their Abbey had been ransacked by Vikings in 997 AD, the monks rebuilt it with the help of Ordulf, Earl of Devon." Err, something is amiss. The first sentence implies that the monks began making clotted cream in the 1300s, but the second sentence (along with the one after it) implies that they began making clotted cream as early as 997. Which is correct?
• "An article from 1853 explains that creating clotted cream will produce 25% more cream than regular methods." Three problems with this sentence:
  • Having the word "explains" near the beginning of the sentence wrongly implies that this will have something to do with the topic of the previous sentence (nourishment).
  • The 25% information doesn't make sense unless units are used. 25% more by volume or by weight? 25% more for each unit of milk that is used, or 25% more for each unit of time spent preparing the cream?
  • A lot has changed since 1853, particularly the precision with which we make measurements. Is it still believed to be true that this process is 25% more efficient than regular methods?
• "The butter made in this way had a longer lifespan and was free from any negative flavours added by the churning." What exactly is a "negative flavour"? Perhaps this is a term that is commonly used in food/drink literature, but it's certainly one that I've never heard before. Perhaps "undesirable" would be a better adjective?
• "The unique, slightly yellow, Cornish clotted cream colour is due to the high carotene levels in the grass" This may mislead some readers into thinking that grass is an ingredient in clotted cream. I suggest adding a snippet that relates the grass to the cows' diets.
• "Traditionally, clotted cream was created by straining unhomogenised cow's milk, then heating the cream that had risen to the surface in shallow pans using a water bath, before a slow cooling. During this time the cream rises to the surface and forms clots." The second sentence is largely redundant since the first already discusses cream rising to the surface. If the clot-forming bit is important, I suggest incorporating that into the first sentence.

  Paragraph now rewritten, as below.  —SMALLJIM  16:17, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

• "It was a far more efficient method: as a farmer's wife in Poundsgate said, "the separator saves a whole cow!"" What does this quote mean? Did the old method cause harm to the cows...?

  Smalljim, this is one for you.[2] - I haven't seen anything that says a separator was used for clotted cream, which I was under the impression needed a heating and cooling process. As for what it could mean, something to do with "whole milk" perhaps? I honestly couldn't tell you. Worm^TT · (talk) 14:16, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

  Hmm. I've reworked the start of the preparation section to split the traditional method from the later ones, including the thermograph bit - I don't think farmers' wives would have cared whether they were required or not! I've also rewritten that para to better describe the process, and the part the separator had in it. I hope the "saves a whole cow" makes sense now.  —SMALLJIM  16:08, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

More to come. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 18:38, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Manufacture outside South West England

I know that it is also made in Herefordshire - but it's not clear which of the sources shown there are the most reliable to show in the article, or whether there are other areas in which it is manufactured. Statements such as "in England it is only made in the south west" need to be modified slightly, in my view - but what do we think is the best wording to be used? Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:46, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

PS: Rather than listing counties in the lead, I think it would be preferable to say "...and elsewhere" in the lead, with a listing of places of manufacture (withb refs) in the main text. In a rush... offline most of today.... Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:03, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Good point. I will modify my modifications. --Simple Bob ^{a.k.a. The Spaminator} (Talk) 09:18, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Traditional production

Just a note for later that Worgan's General view of the agriculture of the county of Cornwall, 1815 (Google pdf) has a good description of the traditional method of making clotted cream on pp 141–3.  —SMALLJIM  13:23, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Absurd ORIGINAL RESEARCH

The article seems to imply that the method of producing cream originated in the Near East and was brought (exclusively) to Devon & Cornwall by Phoenician traders (presumably before the destruction of Carthage in 146 BCE) where this arcane art was maintained exclusively by the rural Cornish (or Devonians) for over 2000 years in complete isolation from the rest of western Europe - not to mention the rest of the UK - where it has emerged fully formed in our modern era. The apparently substantiated 'FACT' that cream making technology was introduced by 'the Phoenicians' appears to be an exotically inventive extension of the 'LEGEND' that the Phoenicians traded tin with Cornwall in the prehistoric era.[[tin Mining]] also here [[3]] and elsewhere (I suspect the influence of the widely discredited Victorian view that the Cornish language had Semitic elements is somewhere in the mix too.)

I attempted to correct this patent absurdity by suggesting that this the product is merely a local response to the archaeological substantiated and historic practice of dairy farming in the region - my revision here [[4]]

however was overruled by Ghmyrtle, Worm that Turned and Smalljim

who have all been inducted into the arcane lore of wikipedia and therefore have advanced status of inscrutability and infallibillity when it comes to such important specialist topic matters such as the production of cream. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.151.149.1 (talk) 11:11, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

No-one is claiming infallibility. However, the existing text is supported by reliable sources. Your suggestion is not - or, at least, you haven't provided any. Your source does not make any mention, so far as I can see, of dairy farming or clotted cream - so, it is irrelevant to this article. No-one, I think, questions the shared Brythonic cultural heritage of Cornwall and Devon. That's not the issue. The issue is that your source did not support your viewpoint and brought no new information to this article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:27, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

(ec)

I think you'll find that none of us claim infallibility or inscrutability. What we do claim is the ability to précis existing reliable written sources into encyclopaedic articles. In this case the cited source[5] states that clotted cream is "a close relation of the Near Eastern Kaymak etc.; and it has been suggested that Phoenician traders, who came to Cornwall more than 2,000 years ago in search of tin may have introduced there the Near Eastern technique of making it." See how that's been worked into the article? Note that it only says "It is possible that..."

Now that may well not be the best bit of research on that topic and if you can find another reliable source that says something else, you've encouraged to add it - or preferably discuss it here, now. The reference that you added to the article didn't appear to have anything to do with what you were claiming, which in itself was dubious ("it is logical that"), which is why it was removed. Your persistence in re-adding it without attempting discussion resulted in the short block that I regretfully imposed to stop you.

I hope this explains the situation and I also hope we can come to an amicable agreement over what this section should say.  —SMALLJIM  11:50, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I submit - my rational and objective argument that historic and archaeological evidence (i hope you did actually read the article all the way through in the 12 or so minutes between my edit and your multiple reverts) of long term dairy farming in the region has led to the instance of this rather unassuming dairy product (heated up cream) is unacceptable to your sense of OED endorsed logic - please therefore state your objective evidence for the presumed fact that this technique was not developed independently in the British region and had to be imported by 'the Phoenicians' in the prehistoric era. (Note that no objective records exist for the pre historic period, hence 'pre-historic'). This is going to be good. By the way have you ever been to Devon or Cornwall? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.151.149.1 (talk) 11:59, 4 September 2011 (UTC) PS your logic appears to assume that no content can appear on Wikipedia unless its been referenced in some independent 'verifiable source' - in this case the OED - which is manifestly not the case - even where it conflicts with common sense and common knowledge. In fact, why not delete the whole article and replace with one from the Encyclopaedia Brittannica? I await for you to quote the rule book at me... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.151.149.1 (talk) 12:10, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

That's not the way we work here. I'm not going to talk to you in any sort of adversarial fashion: this is a cooperative effort. If you want to contribute here I suggest you spend some time reading up on how Wikipedia works first.  —SMALLJIM  12:12, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

(e/c again) Your views may well be "rational and objective", but that's not the point - they are not supported by the sources you've provided. Find proper sources, and they can be included. You say: "your logic appears to assume that no content can appear on Wikipedia unless its been referenced in some independent 'verifiable source'" - that's absolutely correct. No-one is saying for sure that the production of clotted cream was imported from the Phoenicians - the article says that it's possible, and that argument is supported by a reputable source. There's absolutely no reason for you to take an antagonistic attitude here, by the way - I'm sure you're acting in good faith, but you need to read up some more on how this website works. "Common sense" and "common knowledge" count for very little here. I lived and worked in Devon for 14 years by the way, and will be consuming both clotted cream and pasties, I hope, when I'm in Cornwall later this week.... Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:14, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Maybe i should do a degree in IT - that would help with my knowledge an understanding of archaeology, architecture, mythology, culture, language, philosophy, social anthropology and logic. i'm well aware that this is a cooperative effort - i even understand what that means - as i've been contributing under various guises for over 5 years now - i really have no need to aggregate my power base so i won't be opening another wikipedia account to perpetuate mis-truths, thankyou. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.151.149.1 (talk) 12:35, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

How you can contribute [[6]]

Don't be afraid to edit – anyone can edit almost every page, and we are encouraged to be bold! Find something that can be improved and make it better—for example, spelling, grammar, rewriting for readability, adding content, or removing non-constructive edits. If you wish to add new facts, please try to provide references so they may be verified, or suggest them on the article's discussion page. Changes to controversial topics and Wikipedia's main pages should usually be discussed first.

Remember – you can't break Wikipedia; all edits can be reversed, fixed or improved later. Wikipedia is allowed to be imperfect. So go ahead, edit an article and help make Wikipedia the best information source on the Internet! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.151.149.1 (talk) 13:56, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Please note WP:TPG and confine your thoughts to improving the article itself. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:08, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Effect on health

FAO Neffk, my post to your user talk page and our recent edits here refer. I don't think that this article should discuss the merits or otherwise of dietary fat/carbohydrate intake: it's not particularly relevant here, and has been dealt with in other articles – Saturated fat and cardiovascular disease controversy, Western pattern diet, Criticism of fast food, for instance.

Any mention in this article of clotted cream's effect on health must specifically mention clotted cream, to avoid what we call synthesis of published material that advances a position. Specifically: source A says clotted cream is high in fat, and source B says high fat diets are not necessarily unhealthy. What we must not do is synthesise A and B to suggest that clotted cream may not be unhealthy. In fact we already have three sources that specifically say it is not considered to be good for you, but note that we're not saying that clotted cream is bad for health, we're only reporting what other sources have said. If you can find a reliable source that says it is health-giving, by all means mention it – I'd really like to be persuaded that it is, so I can eat a lot more of it!

One more point – the "Dietary fat consumption and health" paper you cited dates from 1998. Medicine is, I believe, a fast moving field and that makes me doubt that a 15-year-old paper still reflects current opinion on this topic. Your comments (or anyone else's who's interested) are welcome.  —SMALLJIM  21:00, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Well mad points and I fully agree. As for whether you should eat more, I would refer you to the health-giving benefits of eating lard which in many ways is similar to clotted cream. --Bob Re-born (talk) 21:08, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Ah, the good old British Lard Marketing Board ;-) I can actually remember bread and dripping for tea. Fortunately I used to hate it. 'Twas hard up North. Gravel.  —SMALLJIM  22:13, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I made the edit because of an anti-fat bias. There are two sides to that debate and I wanted a more even-handed discussion. Personally, I don't know which side is right. It's probably a little from Column A and a little from Column B. An unbiased bit on health is fine. If someone wants to just link to more appropriate pages, that's OK with me. neffk (talk) 15:29, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Also, there's lots of science that hasn't changed in 10-15 years. Disregarding an article on the basis of when it was published is not appropriate. Anyone in research (and I was for years) knows that funding suffers from politics and popularity. It is often the case that a topic falls out of favor and gets picked up years later. neffk (talk) 15:29, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Wanting to even up a perceived bias is fine, as long as you can find supportive sources. As I explained above, a source that doesn't mention clotted cream isn't sufficient because you have to use synthesis to assert its relevance. I think the existing link to saturated fat is adequate to explain the position for readers who are interested.

I'd like to add back the 2006 paper that rated clotted cream the least healthy of 120 foods because it's directly relevant, but to avoid overemphasising the bad health aspect, what about dropping the icons.org.uk source (it's a dead link of dubious reliability only available via archive.org anyway), and adding a quote in the Telegraph reference – specifically the very last para: "No one is suggesting that eating clotted cream for breakfast every day is life-prolonging, but a moderate amount of dairy fat in your diet is not only not going to do you harm, it's actually healthy, as well as life-enhancing." What do you think?  —SMALLJIM  20:25, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

In the absence of any response, I've amended the article as above.  —SMALLJIM  14:45, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Section needed on how good it tastes.

Beyond a shadow of a doubt clotted cream is one of life's extreme luxuries and should be tasted by everyone at least once with jam on scones.Pure bliss.Ten out of ten. Now I just need a reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 (talk) 03:37, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

your post should make Wikipedia come up with some sort of "stupid-ban". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.32.193.80 (talk) 21:27, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

US classification as butter?

Given the sentence preceding this statement under the Description section, that the fat content is a minimum of 55% but an average of 64%, I'm seeing a conflict with the USDA minimum milkfat requirement for butter being at 80% (http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELDEV3004470, page 7). The USDA standards are also cited in the butter and butterfat articles.

The cited source, while being an article originally written for the Chicago Tribune, and stating a growing interest in clotted cream within the US, does not make any mention of US classification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.59.248.54 (talk) 00:36, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

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