Talk:Chav/Archive 4

Etymology/Gabber

I was just reading the gabber page, and this struck me:

The term 'gabber'

The term traces its roots back to the Hebrew word "khaver", meaning 'mate' or 'friend', the word is at this moment a normal word in the Dutch language. Apocryphally, one of these gabbers wanted to enter the Roxy in Amsterdam, where the bouncer said, "No, gabber, you can't come in here."

When i was at school in Northumberland back in the day, the 'charva' kids were certainly into the rave/hardcore/gabber scene which was pretty big in Newcastle + Scotland, with lots of connection to the Dutch scene... This just made me wonder if the word could possibly have come from "khaver"? Even if Charva goes further back as a Geordie word there still might be something to this, as the gabber music scene crossover from Holland to the north of england was based on existing connections due to tradition of trade/shipping between the two i believe....

Just a random notion.. :)

Wiggers v. Chavs

So would it be safe to assume that a chav is essentially Great Britain's answer to the wigger in the United States? --M.Neko

Only sort of; a chav could be black, white, asian or whatever. However, it IS fairly highly influenced by hip-hop culture so, in that way, any white chavs would probably be fairly close to wiggers, but its a far from direct equivalent. The term 'wigger' is known and used in the UK too. --Robdurbar 08:22, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Correct, in me and my friends eyes, a wigger (in england) is somebody who sees himself as black, ali g comes to mind. 86.140.217.61 15:31, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Westwood is a wigga, because he clearly forces himself to present himself a terrible 'black person' stereotype. Chavs don't try to imitate 'black culture', they just happen to truly enjoy things traditionally associated with a black stereotype in Britain, such as drum and bass, smoking weed, R&B, and so on. Chavs don't really pay much attention to race; for example, they will only use racism as an excuse to vandalise or start a fight. --gigacannon

I would say that Chavs tend to be white and stick to white culture. I never perceive them as enjoyers of black music, I associate Hip Hop and R&B as black music. Surely Chavs listen to Dance and drum & Bass music and nothing else? As that is what you hear when they cruise in their stupid little cars.

It seems unlikely that you could fairly term Chavs the British wiggers, as by and large the chav contingent is the most racist you will find in the place, and is far more likely to abuse than aspire to another culture.

>>Absolute nonsense! Drum'n'Bass is originally black music. The Chav phenomenom is a total product of the influence of Black American and Jamacian Rude Boy street culture on UK youth. The evidence is blatant, from baseball caps, Hip hop "music" and the newly formed slang of 'Nang', which is full of Jamacian influences . Liberals claim Chav is exclusive to whites because they're inverted racist snobs who hate the white working-class and have a romantisized view of black people as perpetual victims who never put a foot wrong, and who usually live nowhere near them.

Affluence and being a chav

This article seems to infer that to be a chav one must be from an 'impoverished background' given that chavs are quite common in very well-off upper-middle class towns, particularly London satelite towns I'm not convinced that this is accurate. The idea that a chav must be poor is a recent change to the definition made in the last year or so when the wider media adopted (and misunderstood the meaning of) the word.

Obviously everyone's definition of a chav will be different but to my mind it is far more to do with antisocial behaviour and an associated dress-sense than financial situation. As such I feel that defining them as 'impoversihed' is misleading. MagicBez 01:31, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

To be fair, wealth is not mentioned in the intro or in the stereotype bit. This meaning has ceratinly been given to chav and is worth adding, but is hardly over emphasosed here. --Robdurbar 07:46, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Lol, I see why, you removed it. Yeah, I think that's right. --Robdurbar 07:47, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I grew up in Hayes, Middlesex and first came across the term in the junior playground in the mid- 1980s. It was synonymous with "common" and didn't mean poor so much as "lower class". Although it did also have "essex girl" overtones meaning cheap and easy, too (but I discovered that when I was a bit older!)Anne-Marie

This article seems to deal with the current meaning of the word "Chav". I remember in the late-1990s when the word mean "steal", as in "I chaved it from Tesco". 66.66.161.1 18:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

yeah- but steretypes i normally rascially predjudice ( i can say rascist can i?)

Chavs are a symptom of the proletarianisation of the middle class and increased income for the working class. As such, they can come from either middle class (infrequently upper middle class) backgrounds (i.e. their father is middle class) or from a working class background. The worst chavs are usually members of the underclass.--gigacannon

Ali G

Is the Ali G character a chav? Is he supposed to be one? A lot of the description in the chav article seems to fit. — 208.180.197.2 17:08, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay, sorry. Apparently this has come up before twice with no real consensus. He is the first character who came to mind when I read the article, though. — 208.180.197.2 17:19, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

No - Ali G represents the archetypal "Asian Rude-Boy", or in plain English, British males of South Asian origin who attempt to imitate US West Coast African American style.

Not even - the Ali G character is deeply ambiguous racially but obviously not what he purports to be - i.e. black - and much of the sketches' humour rests on this ambiguity. Gerry Lynch 15:37, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

A lot of Ali G is based on Jimmy Savile 66.66.161.1 18:37, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Chavs around the world

It seems that every culture has it's own chavs. Here in Puerto Rico we have cacos who are very similar to chavs in many ways but it mainly refers to young men who are involved in the reggaeton music scene and often dress in typical hip-hop fashion(a notable example is the famous reggaeton artist Daddy Yankee). They are often known for their ignorant, violent and hedonistic behavior and their affinity for modifying compact asian cars and sport-scooters with sound systems, graphics and after-market "racing" parts.

And I also read about a subculture in Spain known as makinetos(also known as bakalas) who are called this way because of their obsession with "makina" music. They share many common traits with chavs such as fashion(tracksuits and gold jewellry), behavior(violence, bad attitude and prejudice towards other youth cultures) and low brow interests(usually sex, drinking and recreational drug use). Can any Spanish readers fill us in on this? We'd appreciate it - Jesse C.

In the city of Barcelona (Catalonia, Spain), we had the "Xavas" or "Chavas" (same pronunciation), who were characterized by their accent, unconspicuously ridiculous clothing, modifed cars and showy items. The similarity between the names Chavas and Chav, I take it to be a coincidence. The true Chavas were the descendants of spanish inmigrants living in the Sants neighbourhood in Barcelona. This was arround the 1960's; nowadays the "chava" accent (when speaking catalan language) still exists, even among young people.

It appears that there's always going to be a lower class of males with violent tendancies somewhere in the world. Perhaps it would be appropriate if a phrase was coined to explain "violent male youths expressing fashions influenced by the American hip-hop culture." VMYEFIBAHHC for short. Or maybe Wierd Al said it best: Young dumb and ugly. ElijahD 12:23, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

- I also heard about a Swedish "hooligan" youth culture known as "kickers". There is very little info about them in English although I did run across some websites that deal with this subject. Apparently they are(were?) youths who were interested in fighting and maybe martial arts and were involved in hooliganism and gang fights. They have a particular style of dress consisting of Adidas sports clothes and "buffalo shoes". The Swedish teen drama film "Stockholmsnatt" is said to be inspired by this subculture. Here's a site with some info:

--A kickers seems a bit diffrent from chavs. The kickers was in the middle of the 90 a young man, usually with immigrant parents.This made the kickers subculture heavly influenced by easteuropean/middleeastern/latinamercian influence. The typical stereotype was of a turkish teenager with adidas pants, buffalo and a bomberjacket. If the kicker was swedish, it was usually refered to as a swedish kicker. But I think the setup of the gangs more had to do where you lived then who you were. The main diffrence between chavs and kickers is that kickers more seems to be a way of acting then dressing/musicstyle and kickers doesn't seem to refeer to themself as kickers.

- I think that another individual similar to a "Chav" would be a "Cholo", which are Mexican-American or illegal mexican immigrants that have acquired some "hip-hop" elements from the Black culture in the US. Also, not to be confused with Naco, since Naco is one of poor origin and is a word mostly used in Center of Mexico while Cholo is more commonly used in the North. - Pablo C.

I always understood "Cholo" to be a racially descriptive term applied to someone of mixed black / white race. Similar to "Mulatto" in fact. have I got that totally wrong? Saintjohnny 23:41, 12 July 2006 (UTC)Saintjohnny

Mainly white?

I'd disagree with the idea that the chav stereotype is white - perhaps in Kent and Sussex where the chavscum.co.uk phenomenon originated, but in racially diverse cities like London and Birmingham, the chav look, language and lifestyle transcends all racial boundaries. Also worth pointing out that one of the most prominent group of 'out and proud' chavs, the Hayez Squad, are all of Paksitani heritage.

As a complete aside, the chav equivalent in Turkey are known as 'Hanzos'. Gerry Lynch 12:07, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

To be fair, none of our sources mention race, so you're probably right that we should remove it. --Robdurbar 12:36, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, I am from the UK, although we are a multi-cultural country, I feal the reason we have the word "chav" and do not use "wigger" is because unlike the United States, we do not have a history of racial tension and do not place as much empasis on ethnicity.

: Sorry, but have you ever heard of the Brixton riots, the Toxteth Riots? Surely you remember the Bradford race riots? Britain's hardly free of racism or racial tension.--86.138.107.21 21:51, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that Chatham, widely cited as the 'birthplace' of the chav, is not a particularly diverse place. It has a immigrant population in the town centre and the majority of ethnic minorities are primarily descended from the Indian sub-continent. There are almost no black people in the Medway Towns, of which Chatham is a member. I'm assuming that this is common of the commuter hinterland towns of London. I would suggest that whilst chavs from the major and minor urban areas share many similarities, any perceived correlations based on race are skewed by that in London suburbs, there is likely to be a strong ethnic diversity, whereas in orbital towns, ethnic diversity is likely to be weak.--gigacannon

Pronounciation

How does one pronounce this intruiging word? Szarka 14:55, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

'ch' as in church and 'av' as in 'have' - you can tell I'm not well versed in phonetics! --Robdurbar 21:41, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I see now that the Wikitionary article includes the pronounciation. Maybe it's appropriate to indicate that pronounciation can be found there, rather than note it directly on this page? Szarka 15:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Video game

I have previously played a video game called Expendable, produced in 1998 by a UK company, Rage Software. I don't know whether or how this ties in, but one of the creatures in this game is called a "charva." Can anyone shed any light on the potential connection?--Ssbohio 21:38, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Well what was a "charva" - was it a human even? This is probably original research anyway. Secretlondon 22:49, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

When I say this, please accept that I'm not trying to stoke the fires any more than they've already been, but my recollection was that the charva in the video game were a form of humaniform alien mutant with implications of being subhuman. In gameplay, the charva were essentially cannon fodder, not particularly dangerous, but plentiful. Charva in the game definitely don't physically resemble the chav described in the article. :-)

Until the arguments in Templates for deletion & Deletion review (userboxes), I hadn't heard of chav as a slang term or slur. When I came to this article, I saw the term charva, which reminded me of the creatures in the videogame. Looking up the videogame, I find it was produced by a UK company, which made me wonder about any potential connection.

One other question: is this a term that is universally an epithet, or is it a label that some have adopted?--Ssbohio 23:17, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think any "normal" people have adopted this as a self-definition - there have been references that some minor celebrities in tabloid newspaper The Sun have - they are very much the exception - it's a classist insult. Secretlondon 00:28, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

It is interesting this. What company made the game? If it is a north eastern/Scottish company then this is some sort of verfiable evidence that the term has been long in use in these areas, as has been unverifiably claimed by a number of editors here. As for OR; we can use 'primary soucres' so its fine for this sort of thing to be a source. --Robdurbar 06:57, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I can confirm that "Charva" or "Charver" is the common term for "Chav" in north east England. Scotland I am not so sure; is it not "Ned?"

Aye, a charva would fall under this recently new fangled chav thing, however the term was in use a LONG time before this chav word appeared in the South - and I have lived in both areas for a while now. Prehaps the would was transplanted by people from Kent away to university in the North East in the 1990s and then found usage in the South East making it more wide spread since most of the country live there.--Williamsayers79 12:25, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

As I am reliably informed (by my Scottish friends) a ned is the equivalent of a charva in Scotland and charva is also used there.--Williamsayers79 12:25, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Hurrah excellent news, finally some seeable evidence outside of the viz for charva being originally a north east word that chav grew out of. Yes these aliens in the game may not have resembled actual charvas but the idea of a swarm of brutish canon fodder fits in with the perceptions about charvas. I've been saying this all along, charva came first. Before reading all this yesterday I was thinking of how to say it all, got a idea for a edit but haven't time to do it now.--Josquius 12:42, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I checked, that company did indeed have a Newcastle office.--Josquius 21:08, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Kent/Early 1920s

This keeps being reinserted into the article by an anonymous user operating from a range of proxy ips and I can't change it because of the Wikipedia:Three Revert Rule. However, to include such imformation it needs to be verifiable i.e. you need to source the assertion that it has been used in Kent since the 1920s. --Robdurbar 08:52, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, The word Charver has been used to mean the same thing since at least the early 90s in Durham and Northumberland but I can't find any sources so I'm not gonna insert it in Wikipedia Standardelephant 18:38, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Removed sentences

The website Fatpie has released a series of video charicatures of the chav lifestyle, with David Firth's character 'Devvo'. These will be aired on E4 at the 29th of June and repeated on the 14th of July.

Skittle 16:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

this means its wel mint innit

I saw those words at the beginning of the article. Why were they put there? What do they mean?

Never mind. And sorry I didn't sign before.DL 13:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Someone please remove all the 'facts'

Someone has substituted 'fact' and varitations thereof for 'stereotype'. Comically refering to stereotypes of chavs as 'facts' devalues the real facts about them which are stated in the article. They would appear sillier to the reader if the article reported the social group more accurately.

Rintrah 13:38, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Sham 69

I've removed the entire section entitled Sham 69's "Hersham Boys": A Possible Explanation for "Chav"?. It was wholly unsourced and had all of the appearance (especially given the title and closing sentence) of a first publication, directly in Wikipedia, of a novel hypothesis about the origin of the name for this stereotype, in contravention of our Wikipedia:No original research policy. If you wish to reinstate it, please ensure that you cite sources that are making this particular argument. This article is an original research magnet, and unsourced material will be removed from it without mercy. Uncle G 14:31, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

"terms" vs. "stereotypes"

Minor point, but I edited to change "List of similar stereotypes" back to "List of similar terms". The latter seems more neutral; whether the terms in fact refer to stereotypes, and to what degree, is a matter of opinion and analysis. A number of other articles have a "List of similar terms" section as well. Cheers, --MCB 16:56, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Myspace.com

Although it can be argued that a few more chavs are signing up to Myspace.com than before, I always thought of that site as more of an 'alternative style site'. Wouldn't something like Faceparty.com be classed as far more popular than Myspace.com with the chav culture?--Like omgzz 00:36, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I agree, faceparty seems a lot more charva. Myspace is world reknowned for being the domain of emo kids.--Josquius 12:43, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Similar Stereotypes

I am concerned that this section is growing to be a list of lower-class stereotypes from around the world, with only tenuous relevance to the topic of the article. I would like to move this list somewhere more appropriate, possible to a new "Scum and Villainy terms around the world" article, if no appropriate article already exists. Thoughts? --Eyrian 13:52, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Since when??

Every time I look at this article, in the line "(...)is a slang term in wide use throughout the United Kingdom since 1999", the date has changed! First it was 2004, then 2003, and now 1999! Could we please get a fixed date? Crazy Eddy 11:06, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The earliest mentions I can find on newsgroups are from 1998, but it definitely wasn't widespread until 2004, that's when one of the newspapers named it as the 'word of the year', and this article was first written. Changed back to 2004. BillyH 12:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

What is the source for this information? -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 12:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

For the 1998 date, I posted some links here. For the 2004 date, the first non-redirect version of this page is here, October 2004. Before then the article was at Townie [1], which was, IIRC, the word commonly used before 'Chav' became popular. BillyH 13:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I tend to agree with chocolateboy in the archive - this appears to be original research. Excluding Wikipedia as a source, I think the most verifiable claim we have is the word of the year in 2004, but I am not sure if that title indicates when usage became common, or even wide. This type of claim needs to come from a reliable source. Perhaps there should be a different verifiable claim - for example it first appeared in Collins dictionary [2] and the OED[3] in 2005. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 17:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I searched for the word on the BBC News website, and this is the earliest result, from October 2004, when Susie Dent named it as the 'buzzword of the year' in her book. In Google Groups, there are 150 results for 'Chav' in 2003 [4] but a lot of which seem to be unrelated. In 2004 there's 7,950 [5], and in 2005 there's 12,300 [6], though 2003 to 2004 sees the biggest jump. You're right, though, a better claim would be good. BillyH 19:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Again, these searches are original research and therefore irrelevant. I'd be inclined to go with the first entry into the OED. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 19:18, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Oppose Merger

The proposed merger with Scally is misguided as the terms are similar, but not synonymous. Scally is sometimes virtually a term of endearment, which is significantly different to Chav. Addhoc 13:26, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I was just about to come in here and post on that. Could people here please go over to scally and vote on the merger there. As things stand wikipedia has inconsistant regionalism, some regional words are hunted down and slaughtered with their pages ruthlessly blocked from further editing whilst others are allowed to roam free. Scally is indeed a different word to 'chav' but then so is charva. It is utterly irrational to have dual standards where one minute they want everything about these asbo people in one article and the next they let it spread out --Josquius 11:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Nice analogy. Addhoc 20:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

= Chav or Charver

They are different things and should be changed back into seperate articles!

Indeed (cleaned up your comment a bit there)--Josquius 11:50, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Snobbishness

Whilst chavs are uninteresting, criminally orientated and vile, there is a tendency for some of the better heeled in society to label anyone of working class extraction as chavs. This trend is very noticeable on the well known ChavScum website, where ignorant goons openly make fun of the poor while pretending to direct their wrath at the poorly dressed anti-social elements. Guv2006 14:24, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Huh?

I've been checking out this article and the pages it links to for a couple of days. For some reason, the concept just strikes me as fascinating. Maybe that's because I'm an American whose never been to the UK, and while I've never actually seen a chav (or a British one anyway), it's like looking at an offshoot of our culture that's just sort of taken off on it's own and mixed with some other subcultures and British culture to the point where there's a recognizable similarity, but it's also something very different from the US variety. For instance, while alot of people do the whole 'bling bling' thing, the fascination with Burberry in particular is just odd. Here in the US, Burberry isn't really a part of hip hop culture. The fact that other youth cultures are at odds with the chavs is also something unusual. Goths (for example) aren't really an enemy of hip hop kids here in the states. In fact, Marilyn Manson has appeared in an Eminem video. The reaction of the upper classes to the chavs is also something odd. It's true that alot of subcultures in the US find hip hop threatening, but these are usually in more conservative places like Utah. Most major cities have accepted or absorbed hip hop into the mainstream, although gangsta rap does raise an eyebrow now and then. Even the rural areas on the coasts and in the north don't really have much of a problem with hip hip (again, with some exceptions). But in the UK, it appears that there is a very strong negative reaction to it, and in some of the more liberal areas, too. The fact that the word 'chav' has become the buzzword of the year is just so strange to me. Sure, people use the term 'wigger', but that's mostly the racists and the older folks, and it's becoming less and less common every day. 'White trash' doesn't really mean the same thing as 'chav' either, anymore than 'trailer trash' does. Those terms more imply very low income white people, who may or may not neccesarily like hip hop or 'bling bling' stuff. Alot of trailer trash are peopel who follow country music more than anything else. And how the raver element got mixed in with it all is mystifying to me. Plus, alot of our hip hop kids over here aren't from the trailer park or the urban ghetto at all-it's most popular among teens from the suburbs here in Upstate New York, although it is certainly a part of urban life here, too. It's just so crazy to see what Europe has done with this US subculture.

It was very interesting to read your take on this. There's something about youth culture in the UK that constantly divides youth into two rival scenes. The goth vs chav thing could already be seen in the 1960s with the mods vs rockers (goths being the descendants of rockers, chavs descendants of mods). In the late 70s there were punks vs rockabillies. The basic divide any teenager is confronted with is whether to become a follower of fashion brands (which can be done to excess, thus frightening adults) or to cultivate an outrageous anti-fashion style. As always in the sociology of the UK there is a relationship with social class. Teenagers from slightly more middle class backgrounds may be able to get away with wearing goth styles, whereas those from working class backgrounds are more likely to want to get respect through wearing brands that are perceived as high quality. Itsmejudith 23:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Chav now officially a word in the new Chambers dictionary

I suggest you may wish to add http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5302226.stm as a link now that it's a 'real' word :)

Pikeys

I'm sure Pikeys are not of relation to Chavs they are or descend from Irish Travellers, and according to my brother (rather an expert on such 'chavvish' matters) is npt the same thing therefore not a synonym of the word chav. Please varify this... I wonder any Chav wikipedia users?

Well, in the area where I live, the south east, the only word we knew for chavs was 'pikey' until quite recently when chav became the nationwide accepted word for such people, even now it is still our most common word we use for them. Yes, the term does originate from the Irish Travellers, but these days it has taken other, albeit linked, meanings. I gather our use originated as Travellers were considered low class, thieving scum by many people, and to be called a gypsey or be told you live in a caravan is still quite a sizable insult now because of its connotations. In essence when we call chavs 'pikeys' we are calling them poor and associating them to other stereotypes of travellers, ironically most of which they hold themselves. Thus it is little wonder that they never call themselves pikeys and to call anyone a pikey to their face is a great insult and liable to land you with a bruised jaw if you say it directly to a chav.

Well I also come from South East England and I don't think the two words are synonymous at all. Both are stereotypic insults, but "pikey" still carries the idea that the person is a traveller, whereas "chav" can be used against anyone working-class.Itsmejudith 22:26, 17 September 2006 (UTC)