Talk:Cengiz Topel

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Untitled[edit]

I dispute the neutrality of this article. It does not mention any sources other than Turkish ones. It appears to me that it is possible that the story regarding the alleged torture and illegal executation of Topel is a propaganda fabrication. I definitely think that for a NPOV article neutral third party sources have to be given. Letus (talk) 15:31, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You should ask for it, i agree, but not by disregarding the Turkish sources. You should ask it from the UN Officers who delivered the body about the cause of his death. You know, for that "NPOV" thing. Why didn't the UN report anything about the martyr's body? That hole in his skull? Gauged left eye? His castrated testicles? Drills in his biceps? Desecrated torso? Missing heart and lungs? Heavy bruises and cuts all over his body?
I guess if someone tortures a Turk or a muslim, no one wants to get involved. Not even mention it in an offical UN Report (The Ortega Report, Article 78)
Same thing happened in Bosnia. See what you can find about it in Serbian sources 'and' the UN Reports. Not much, huh? 212.174.189.18 (talk) 14:05, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not any evidence, the report by some Turks who supposedly examined him is outreagous but not any evidence is provided to prove this, noone else reported this, there was no any possible of course not fair reason to torture this person and particularly in this way, not any gain to do this, only if a crazy person has done it. Plus the Turks historically when involved in conflict have fabricated propaganda, and other events, and not only the Turks do this by the way, all factions from many conflicts around the world have fabricated claims and facts to support their position, it's just that it was very often done from the Turkish Army and Government, they are masters at it. 46.199.218.168 (talk) 08:39, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I see your point. You want hard evidence, you want NPOV reports, you want reason. Well, there are evidences, there are reports. But they also does not exist because you disregard Turks. Reason? None, because you want nothing of it.
If we disregard the Turks, we are left with this:
Who has seen Cengiz Topel landing with a parachute? Only eye witnesses. Who delivered the body? No one recorded their names, not even the UN. There is not a single recording of the events happened that day. Everything happened in Greek territory. Greeks captured him. Greeks held him captive for 4 days. You want those Greeks to be decent and honorable, you want them to record those things, record the people's names who captured Cengiz Topel and you want them to write things down for everyone to see. They did not.
You wanted NPOV evidence: Greeks had Topel, he was in their territory for 4 days, so they had it, ask them. NPOV Reports: Did Greeks record any report? No. They did not. They just erased it whole even from their memories. You need 'Reason'? Ask the Greeks who captured him about the cause of Topel's death. A Turkish soldier landing with a parachute, he is a young pilot and perfectly alive. Turns out dead, half of his body missing, after 4 days. Why did he die? Destiny? God's will?
You wanted reason. Please use your reason about his cause of death. You may find the word "torture" there.
Than Greeks delivered the body to UN officers and UN delivered the body to Turks. What are you asking for? You want Turks to call everyone in the world and witness what Greeks had done to their soldier? What kind of evidence can be given after Topel is murdered by sadistic tortures? It's 1964, you want people to record this on their phones and post it on social media?
I know that even if Turks had it, i mean, even if they did show the body to the world, you would be saying "How can we be sure that you didn't do all those torture marks to his body? You are masters of propaganda so you might have done it"
If one does not want to see reason, if one does not want to see truth, no one can make them. That is for sure.
I mentioned a UN report in my first reply, The Ortega Report, Article 78. Even the UN reporter did not bother to write about a Turkish soldier being taken captive and hold prisoner and than turning out dead in the hands of Greeks. That shows their decency about the matter. They did not care although it was their job.
So... this is it. Cengiz Topel was an unfortunate Turkish martyr whom was murdered by the hands of dispicable human beings.
They tortured him 36 hours straight.
They beat him down, crushed his bones, gauged his eye.
They drilled a whole in his skull and in his biceps.
They crushed his testicles.
They opened up his chest while he was alive, cut his lungs to half.
They made him vomit his own blood.
Finally, they cut his heart out.
He was dead after 2 days.
This is your evidence. 212.174.189.18 (talk) 08:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Here's the autopsy with UN officials' names mentioned at the bottom: https://web.archive.org/web/20030423233654/http://www.tayyareci.com/hvtarihi/cengiztopel/raporlar.asp
If I understood it, it shows he died because he was shot at close range by a small firearm. CrinklyCrankly (talk) 09:37, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is it any wonder that one would hardly find any reference to this outrage in Greek sources? Circumstances of his martyrdom is rather wll known in Turkey. It took another ten years before Turkey was able to put an end to the Greek barbarity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.241.153.82 (talk) 15:49, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

First Turkish Pilot KIA?[edit]

I had heard of a Turkish pilot who was flying with the Americans, piloting a B-24 in Korean conflict and who was shot down there. Would this not qualify as the first Turkish pilot (we are not counting Ottoman losses here I suppose) KIA? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.241.153.82 (talk) 15:55, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, he is not the First Turkish Pilot KIA,
he is the First Turkish Pilot KIA "IN CYPRUS". 212.174.189.18 (talk) 14:09, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

First Turkish pilot killed in action - I think not!203.184.41.226 (talk) 20:16, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely not. First Turkish Republic pilot killed in action was in Korea. A decade earlier. First "Turkish" pilot KIA (depends how you define Turkish here maybe) was back in WWI. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.14.44.109 (talk) 15:06, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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Untitled[edit]

I also disagree strongly with the article's line "He is known as the first Turkish pilot being killed in action", which obviously is very unconvincingly and loosely evidenced. I once read a short book about the so-called Turkish War of Independence (1919-1923), or in Greek the Asia Minor Campaign. That book showed the remnants of a dropped by the Greek army Turkish aircraft and the Turkish pilot lying dead next to it. It took place around the time of the battle of the Sakarya river (1921). War aircraft were used by both sides also during the Balkan Wars, and I repeat it is too risky too put the first Turkish aircraft pilot casualty so late (1964).

The whole line should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.156.63.5 (talk) 12:47, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Of course there were Turkish pilots being killed in action before the Republic. In Turkish resources Topel is not refed as "the first Turkish pilot being killed in action" he is refered either as " the first Turkish pilot killed in Cyprus" and or as "the first Turkish pilot being killed in action during the Republic era". So, i don't think the sentence should be removed totally but chaning it should be considered--Basak (talk) 08:48, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, i agree. He is not the first Turkish pilot KIA, he is the first Turkish pilot KIA in Cyprus.
And,
You seem to know nothing about the Turkish War of Independance yet you should not call it "so-called".
That 'Asia Minor Campaign' you mentioned is called Turkish-Greek war and it is only a fraction of 'Turkish War of Independence'. Turks did not only fight against Greece in the west but also Armenians and Russians in the east, France and Italians in the south, loyalists and separatists in various provinces, and British troops around Istanbul and Çanakkale.
The Turks managed to stop the enemy forces on all fronts and forced the Greeks to swim across to the west. Thanks to Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. 212.174.189.18 (talk) 08:23, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sources are missing[edit]

Sources about his "torture" are missing. And sources have to be evidence-based. His alledged torture without sources couldn't even be a factual claim, with non-evidence-based sources, it could be just a claim. If not changed, or have evidence-based sources about his alledged torture then everything that mention this should be deleted because it could be false information and propaganda over a person that was killed in action and that would be very disrespectful and harmful to everyone. 46.199.39.158 (talk) 02:53, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, i agree that the sources are missing. Too bad that there was not a single camera recording all that torture in that room. And, it is really a shame that UN officers who delivered the martyr's body to Turkish officers did not pay attention to the weight of the body which was around 50 Kg at that moment, nor did they report 'anything' about his missing innards and that drill hole in his skull. Why was he dead? Killing prisoners was against the Geneva Conventions, but they did not do anything about it. Do some research about UN The Ortega Report. (Article 78 in The Ortega Report) You will see that the reporter did not even mention his name, nor talk about how killing a prisoner was against the Geneva Conventions... UN officers chose to deliver the body to Turkey and be done with it. Not a word about the killing and torture. The Turkish reporter who was there noticed it. Cengiz Topel's body was incredibly light to turn around and his chest was stitched up with a sack needle. The autopsy took place in Turkey. (Doctors name is Zihni Uzman, he is still alive) His heart was missing and his lungs were cut in half. He had a broken leg and a cracked chin which was left from his landing with the parachute but all that drill holes in his skull and arms, gauged eye, castrated testicles, knife cuts and heavy bruises all over his body were done by the people who captured him. Estimated death date is August 9, which means he endured that inhuman torture around 30 hours.
Oh, i realized just now that you want proof of evidence, any kind of source and if we can't provide you any of that, we can't say he was tortured. Hmm. Do we have a reliable source about anything that happened that day? You know, other than things the people and the media told us? Was Cengiz Topel's body really delivered? Or was it really his body? Was he captured or suffered instant death from the landing? They may have delivered us some random cadaver? Any source? Any proof? Huh? I think we should just erase the whole wiki history thing, since no one can put up proof of evidence about almost any of those events, just some local sources...
Let me ask you one thing, how do you explain his death? He was landed with a parachute, he had a broken leg and a chin. He tried to run away but captured. He was taken prisoner by the Greeks. UN officers claimed him but EOKA did not coop. His body was delivered 4 days later. I guess he was dead because of his broken chin, huh? Or he was just executed with a bullet to his skull? This whole torture thing is something the Turks made up? And still, you dare to talk about disrespect?
By the way, you mentioned propaganda, so let me mention some.
Greeks used a photo of a woman crying for Cyprus propaganda, for years, they told the world that this woman is Greek and his husband was killed in 1974 by Turks.... Which turned out that the woman's name was Nevcihan Oluşum and his husband was killed by Greeks in 1964, the events that Cengiz Topel was trying to prevent from happening. You want source? Photographers name is Don Mccullin. The Times Magazine... Look it up. You may begin questioning some things that you mentioned after that. 212.174.189.18 (talk) 13:48, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Those who cannot provide a single photograph, visual evidence and an neutral source for the so-called "Greek genocide" claim that the barbaric torture & murder of Cengiz Topel is a "lie". There is not a single neutral source for the alleged "Greek genocide". There are either far-right, racist, fascist, neo-Nazi Greek sources or there are sources from so-called historians who are pro-Greek and not neutral. 37.155.67.107 (talk) 20:10, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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