Talk:Ceire Cion

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On 21 May 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Zionist Party to Ceire Cion. The result of the discussion was moved.

Requested move 21 May 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 18:23, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Zionist Party → Ceire Cion – correct name. Loew Galitz (talk) 20:03, 21 May 2022 (UTC) The correct name is Ceire Cion. See Latvian wikipedia wwor detail. Someonje uneducated saw in cited sources "Zionist party" and decidsed it is the name of the party, while in fact it was its description. Loew Galitz (talk) 19:37, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

sources: Google Books search "ceire cion" + Latvia Loew Galitz (talk) 22:19, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Option 2: if an English title is required then Zionist Party → Zeire Zion (Latvia), Loew Galitz (talk) 22:15, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Here is your contemporary english source snippet " the religious Zionist Party Mizrahi ( leader , Rabbi Mordechai Nurok ) , the left wing Zionist Party Zeire Zion" Loew Galitz (talk) 22:08, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Here is more: Frank Gordon, Latvians and Jews Between Germany and Russia: "Outstanding figures in the Latvian Jewish community of the inter - war period were Max ( Mordechai ) Nurock ( of the Misrachi Movement ) , Mordechai Dubin ( Agudas - Isroel ) , Noah Maisel ( the Bund ) , and Max Laserson ( Zeire - Zion ) ..." Loew Galitz (talk) 22:11, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- and more] [still more... Google Books is your friend. Loew Galitz (talk) 22:12, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. This is not the only confused place about Zionism in LAtvia. Right now I am fixing confusions with the name Zionist Organization Mizrachi. Loew Galitz (talk) 19:39, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose No evidence has been presented that this is the common name for the party in English (Latvian Wikipedia is certainly not an appropriate source). Contrary to the attack/claim made by the requestor, the sources do not use this as a descriptive title, but as the name of the party; "Zionist Party" is given as the English version of the party's name in the Nohlen book, while the JTA and the Columbia uni sources both refer to as the "Zionist Socialist Party". Number 57 20:14, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- That's a confusion: "Zionist Socialist Party" is a totally different party, even this article says so. Loew Galitz (talk) 21:48, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- It does not matter how confused English sources name the party: צעירי ציון or "Zion Youth" is not translated as "Zionist Party" and you do not rename names of organizations based on a whim. Loew Galitz (talk) 21:57, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - (a) The article has always been at the title "Zionist Party" since its creation in 2014 – there was no renaming "on a whim", (b) the Nohlen book does give the translation as such, and I would hope you are aware that party names are not always translated exactly word for word; for example, the literal translation of the Danish Social Liberal Party's Danish name is "The Radical Left", but that's not how they are known in English. Perhaps you could tone down the accusations. As for your evidence that your proposed name is correct, the sources you've put forward use "Zeire Zion" not "Ceire Cion" which is the requested target... Number 57 23:13, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    - (a) That the article was under wrong name means nobody gave a shit. And I was not referring to you, but to dubious sources, sorry for unclear wording. (b) I put forward English sources that use both versions of the name, see the top. Loew Galitz (talk) 00:31, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    - P.S. I apologize for harsh tone. I've been spending an inordinate amount of time fixing sloppiness in coverage of various lesser subjects from Jewish culture and history, so I guess I lost my temper. Loew Galitz (talk) 01:32, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support, or to something else. Zionist Party by itself is confusing. The Latvian branch that was in parliament interwar was part of the Zionist Youth movement that was active across the Russian empire. --StellarNerd (talk) 22:02, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- @StellarNerd: Good to meet somebody who knows the subject. Please help expanding Tze'irei Zion, for I am bad with typing many words. Loew Galitz (talk) 00:31, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per strongly sourced and well-researched nomination. Wikipedia generally lists political parties and movements by their original name — Bloc Québécois, not "Quebecer Bloc", Cymru Goch, not "Red Wales", Herri Batasuna, not "Popular Unity" or Sinn Féin, not "We Ourselves". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 04:50, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- This is not true; parties are generally given what their common name is in English, which can be the name in the original language or the English equivalent. Hence why we have Israeli Labor Party, Social Democrats (Denmark), Christian Democratic Union of Germany, Social Democratic Party of Germany, Free Democratic Party (Germany), Labour Party (Netherlands), Labour Party (Norway), Swedish Social Democratic Party, Centre Party (Finland), National Rally, Spanish Socialist Workers' Party and thousands of other; from my experience of writing thousands of election articles, I'd say if anything, there are far more English names use for parties than the alternative. Number 57 10:46, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - This happens when the party name is translatable in common political terms. But when the party name is something less standard, then see Spinner's examples. As for Israeli Labor Party, see Category:Social democratic parties in Israel, where name types are 50:50. Loew Galitz (talk) 21:02, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 19:05, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. Much better to use the original name. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:21, 25 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.