Talk:Catalan cuisine/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Deletions without consensus

Once again text is deleted without any justification. Saying that Mallorca is not catalonia doesn't mean that Catalan cuisine is not present in Mallorca. Perhaps it would be cleaner if Catalonia had no cultural ties to other places, but since their cuisine is the historical cuisine of Valencia, the Balearics and French Catalonia, it seems sill to ignore this fact. Nowhere does this article confuse the political region of catalonia with the Catalan culture. It simply talks about culture and defines where it is present.

I don't appreciate insults like this at my personal page: "I have seen what you have done here. Please do not vandalize the articles on cuisine anymore. You can find easily in any map at your disposal where Alicante or Majorca are. So my hotel is buying "Turrón from Catalonia" when purchasing turrón de Alicante? If you don't like real world, you rather try with Age of empires than with wikipedia. All the best.--212.64.162.220 (talk) 12:23, 13 September 2008 (UTC)"

I think if you want to change the article you should offer constuctive ideas, and comment on them here. I'm NOT the editor in chief of this page. I'm NOT the only one responsable for it. I just think I know a little on the subject as I live in Valencia. Let's try not to insult each other. Suggestions? PS. As regards Torró, it is made in Agramunt, Catalonia and Xixona, Region of Valencia. Therefore it is in fact Catalan. Please check the facts and then let's try and make a better article. --Espencat (talk) 09:25, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

You are right Espencat, you only know a small part of valencian culture so you thinkl that all valencian things are also catalonina. It's very easy, language, culture and cuisine are not the same. Yes, there are some common dishes between Valencia and Catalonia, but only some of them. Now in the spanis wikipedia there are 55 articles in the valencian cuisine article and 40 in the catalan cuisine, but only FOUR (Arroz a Banda, Mona de Pascua,Ñora and Arrosejat) of them are in both categories. Do you really think that both cuisines are the same?--81.203.140.224 (talk) 23:31, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Since I'm here to improve articles, I don't want to argue and even less be insulted, as inTalk:Valencian cuisine. I'm not sure I understand when I said the things you say (certainly I have no problem with gaspacho in Valencia, typical in Alacantí, part of Costera and Vall d'Albaida, Vinalopó, etc). No problem with esgarrat being just peppers (like Pericana). I'm more of a fan of mullador, though. I think it's great you want to correct any and all mistakes I might make (after all, all of us suffer from what you say: we only know part of the country we live in). This should be collective. I have only ever undone people's changes when they have chosen to delete vast amounts of text. I don't think that's being a "troll". --Espencat (talk) 11:36, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm the user behind 81.203.140.224 ip. I didn't insulted you, I have only say that you have a troll behavior because you delete everything that it doesn't match with your political ideas. For example, now you say that you don't have any problem with gaspacho in Valencia, but you deleted everything I wrote due to vandalisme and a lot of poor english. where is the evidence to suggest valencian cuisine has anything to do with la mancha? why delete al references to Catalonia? less politics. I know that my english is not perfect but at least I know what I'm writing about, and I knew that this manchego dish it's very comun in southern Valencia and Alicante. And of course, I didn't delete all references to Catalonia. I just deleted all references that sugested the false fact that Valencia is a part of Catalonia and valencian cuisine is a part of catalan cuisine. I ask you again, do you really think that valencian cuisine it shares almost all its dishes with Catalonia and the Balearic Islands? I think is not necessary we count how many diferent and equals dishes there are. I'm going to change some wrong things about valencian cuisine. For example wines because as you could see here] there are seven wine cellars that produce cava in Requena, one in Turís and no one in la Costera. Moreover if you visit [1] you will see that Valencia (DO) has no production in Valencia city, and there are a region in this DO that produces also Moscatel. And of course, I'm going to change the false fact you try to write everywhere that Valencia is a part of Catalonia. We have many similar things, but we also have it with other regions like Aragon, Castile-La Mancha or Murcia. Please, don't use make wikipedia an advertisiment of your political ideas --Embolat (talk) 22:24, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Embolat has argued that there might be political reasons to present Catalan cuisine as a label for the cuisine in all the Catalan Countries. And that may be true, I agree. But it could also be the case that other political reasons would push some to prevent such usage and try to denote as "Catalan cuisine" only that developed in the Spanish autonomous community of Catalonia, as a part of the Spanish cuisine. However, it is our duty as wikipedians to avoid any of those temptations. Let me recall the policies in Wikipedia:NPOV. We must make sure that all points of view are present in the articles (with their due weight) and that means supporting them with references. That's why I have placed several "citation needed" in the text hoping that experts in the topic will be able of providing them. --Carles Noguera (talk) 08:48, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

The only safe claim is that Catalan cuisine engulfs Andorran and, possibly, French Catalonia's cuisine (not very sure with the latter, though). All the rest is an unbelievable exercise of POV which we shouldnt "swallow". Valencian and Balearic cuisine have their own articles and that's how it should be. They are distinctive enough to be considered by themselves with no need to be chaperoned by the Allmighty Catalan presence. They have their own dishes and elements, some shared with Catalonia no less than shared with the rest of Spain. Sorry: there is no Països Catalans cuisine whatosever. Pity.

I can't believe how people comes to this extremes of political bias, really... Mountolive _{le déluge} 11:01, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Hear hear! Personally I don't think it's fair to talk about even a single "Catalan" cuisine, since it varies quite radically from region to region. Compare the Empordà with the Delta de l'Ebre... So what chance a "Catalan cuisine" that extends throughout the territories where Catalan is spoken? No thank you! How dreary that would be! AdeMiami (talk) 18:36, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Without changing anything to drastically, I have made a few additions, all of which come from the autonomous community of Catalonia. I have also included the relations with other regional cuisines, as I think its good to stress the inter-relation between, lets face it, almost all cuisines. --Espencat (talk) 13:41, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi Espencat. I appreciate your tone and good will. This said, in your last edit you claimed something along "Catalan cuisines has influenced the cuisine of neighbouring regions like Valencia, Balearics, Aragon, Murcia..."

The problem with that statement is that it is impossible to prove. As far as I know, there is no source claiming that Catalan cuisine influenced, say, Aragonese. Why not vice versa? there is a shared Mediterranean gastronomy constructed over the centuries, more defined since Moorish times. Most of Catalonia was not part of Al-Andalus for most of the time, so, why is not the Valencia cuisine (via the Arabs) the one influencing the Catalan?

Also, there are some inexact claims in that sentence (neither Murcia nor the Balearics are neighbouring regions) but, anyway, the whole thing goes down to a matter of Mediterranean cuisine from which all the others are a part, but then trying to establish filiations (Catalan being the God Father of the rest) is going to be troublesome if not plainly wrong. Mountolive _{le déluge} 13:57, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely right there, Mountolive. Especially the part about "neighbouring". For example, pastissets are clearly arabic and have worked there way up to Tortosa and they are quite obviously Valencian. There are other dishes which have gone up (like paella or bunyols) and others which have come down, like cocas. Quite often it's hard to find out which way round it was, although the way some othese products have the same name in a defined area, or are present only where there are Catalan speakers, gives some weight to calling them "Catalan", just as Ratatouille is "French" or Occitan only in that it has this single name throughout Occitania; otherwise, it's a recipe whic can be found throughout the Med. However I think it's important to talk about the specific areas of influence and the Spanish Med is obviously the main area for this cuisine, above the Med in general (a little too general?).--Espencat (talk) 18:21, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi Espencat. I am pretty much agreeable to your last version.

As I side note, do you have a good, sound, reference for Catalan cuisine being referred also to French Catalonia? this is something I am not really sure about and, in the absence of a note, I am really tempted to remove that statement. Mountolive _{le déluge} 01:14, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Here you go: catalan cuisine in pays catalan]. Its the official page of the Conseil Général (Provinical government). In the first line it calls their cuisine "Catalan". I'll put it in. --Espencat (talk) 11:55, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Respect! Mountolive _{le déluge} 13:26, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Although I absolutely agree with your revert of Siruela's edit, Mountolive, maybe we should find a source for the claim that "It can be considered part of Spanish cuisine". Indeed, i myself wrote this line and although it is obvious that this is true - which doesn't mean you have to like it -, to avoid people deleting it perhaps we should find a reference. Shouldn't be difficult. --Espencat (talk) 12:30, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I hope you'll accept with good faith that I haven't (yet) been able to find a decent source which declares valencian cuisine is NOT Catalan. On the other hand, neither do they say it isn't manchego, or chinese for that matter. If anyone can find an official or scholarly quotation which diferentiates it from Catalan cusine, please, put it in. I've spent a few hours and I can't find anyone except Andrews who is pro PPCC but says its very politicised. Of course, i've added that. As regards if it belongs to Spanish cusine or not, i think it's not really that important, as it's impossible to prove beyond pure opinion. I'd be happy to leave it out and maybe just focus on a good source rejecting catalan cusine in Majorca and Valencia, and one which accepts it in Andorra. Work in progress...--Espencat (talk) 23:26, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Of course it's very hard to find some references saying that valencian cuisine is not a part of catalan cuisine, it's an obviousness (the same kind of obviouness that valencian cuisine is not aragonese cuisine or chinese cuisine). To put some information in wikipedia is needed the reference so I think you should look for a non-politized reference to say that valencian cuisine is a part of catalan cuisine. In the Eliana Thibaut i Comalada book you could read Pertànyer a la nació de catalans, valencians i balears, no és solament parlar una llengua comuna, tenir unes aspiracions polítiques i una cultura (be a part of catalans, valencians and balearic nation, is not only speak a common language, having a political aspirations and a culture). It's allways the same thing: language is only a part of the culture, the politics has nothing related to cuisine and there are about a 25% of valencian territory where only spanish are spoked, they are catalan too? Moreover if you visit the valencian government cuisine webpage you could see that there are 15 rice dishes but only one (black rice) is typical also in catalonia (it's also coca farcida in entrees and olleta in stews, but these are also very typical in valencian spanish-speaking part). Really, I don't know why we are talking about it because there are a lot of differences between valencian and catalan cuisine.--Embolat (talk) 20:31, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Well lets just bypass arguing if we agree or disagree with the reference and talk about how much relavance we should give it. I think they are quite important names in Catalan cooking, but on the otherhand it's important to say that this opnion is one of many and is not accepted by all. Therefore I have tried to talk about it being politicised, that they are only "some", that they are "catalan", and that the respective governments choose not to draw limits. Since it is "so" obvious that valencian cusine is not catalan cuisine, I could'nt find any concrete rebuttal of the claim, but I think no one will argue with the part that says "others disagree". As the article stands, the introduction just gives ideas about the various ideas surrounding the name, but it doesn't say any of them are correct. In the article itself we can happily put in just the food stuffs present in Catalonia (given the strong reference for French Catalonia, I think we can include the Roussillon as well) and avoid adreesing the issue further. I think the progress made in Valencian cuisine shows what can be done if we get the first paragraph out of the way.--Espencat (talk) 18:49, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Espencat, at your previous version, you put too much emphasis on politics. The part of the Generalitats is particularly brittle, for not to mention that odd part of the Generalitat Valenciana not calling it neither Catalan nor Valencian, just regional...if this kind of "reasoning" was to be used, then the Valencian cuisine could also be Senegalese, since the Generalitat Valenciana does not identify clearly, huh? I know this example is out of hand, but you know what I mean.

In a previous post I thought you had accepted that these cuisines are just Mediterranean, I hope you come back to this much more undisputed and factual view, rather than mixing languages and cuisines, which are not related other than for tongues... Mountolive _{fedeli alla linea} 03:09, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

sources

By the way, the source provided for Josep Plà did not read anywhere that he considered Catalan and Valencian/Balearic cuisine identical, not even similar.

Admitedly, I made a quick reading of the source and I may have certainly missed it, but, at first sight, nowhere in the quotation was stated that Mr. Andrews is "considered one of the world’s foremost experts on Spanish cuisine". Please let me know if I missed it.

As for sources quoting Catalan cuisine as a part of Spanish cuisine, I hope you are not really asking for those, are you? No offense meant, but I have better things to do tonight than quoting the obvious. Actually, if I did miss that part on Mr. Andrews calling him the ultimate expert on Spanish cuisine, then feel free to add this very same source to cover Catalan cuisine as a part of the Spanish one Mountolive _{fedeli alla linea} 02:48, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

You have a good point there. Certainly when I read the book, he states that catalan cuisine is not Spanish cuisine, if you consider that to be Castillian cuisine (I paraphrase him here). As regards the government bit, it's not great and I would leave it out, but it seemed a good idea to find out what the maximum legal authorities consider, even if they don't say anything very clearly. That in itself says something. But I think you believe me saying that they don't say anything implies that they support Andrew's analysis. I didn't see it this way though, rather more I saw it as a contradiction o at least it states that this view has no official support. I suppose we could say it like that: "but this opinion is not officially supported by either the Catalan, Balearic of Valencian government". I think I'll put it in.

By the way, it seems to me you are confusing me putting in a POV with a reference as saying that this is the only POV. What I think is irrelevant, we just need the article to cover the main POV. And although I don't need a reference saying that people consider it Spanish food, I asked for one in order to give all POVs a ref and becasuse a user called Sirera deleted this part. If it had a ref, it can be more easily defended. But let's put it back in.

As regards Andrews his importance is relative and I got this sentence on him being so well-known from the English article on him. I think we can get rid of any subjective value by delting this phrase. On the other hand, if you read 'El que hem menjat' Pla clearly supports this viewpoint.--Espencat (talk) 10:36, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I see you've done all the things I said in relation to Andrews and Spanish cuisine. Great. I also like your wording better, it's much clearer like this. :-) --Espencat (talk) 10:44, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I guess I'll have to take your word with Plà...but dont try to fool me, because I do take Plà seriously, man!.

I have amended "Occitan cuisine" to a more general "Southern French cuisine". In my opinion, you are drawing too strict linguistic barriers when it comes to cooking. Traditional gastronomy is not so much tied to languages as "Occitan cuisine", "Catalan cuisine", "Valencian cuisine" etc suggest. They are all Mediterranean cuisines with their own local highlights, but, in the end, not that far apart, regardless of whatever language spoken. Mountolive _{fedeli alla linea} 16:37, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Okay then, I'm just trying to avoid implying it's similar to French basque cookery, for example, without using the over-used "provençal cookery" which is totally inexact in this context. As you say, all names are arbitrary and respond only to tradition. Don't worry about Pla, he is so right on he even says things like "if you want to eat a good paella, don't waste your time, just get a train and go to Valencia" Brilliant, I couldn't have put it better. --Espencat (talk) 19:15, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I would like to talk about Catalan's national identity through cuisine. Because of the current political climate, I would like to look at Catalunia's dietary distinctions from Spanish cuisine. The article mostly just lists foods commonly eaten in Catalunia and mentions similarities and distinctions between neighboring cuisines very little. Sources include: Catalan Journal of Communication & Cultural Studies Food, Culture & Society Journal of Tourism History Aeb604 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:16, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Language edits

Much of this page is in desperate need of correction. I am willing to go through it and attempt to improve the English. Anyone else out there feel like having a go too?Jimjamjak (talk) 12:50, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

number of Michelin stars

A quick look at List of Restaurants in Barcelona shows significantly more than 9 Michelin stars in Barcelona. The statement that Barcelona has 9 stars is clearly false. Toddst1 (talk) 15:02, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

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