Talk:Carol II of Romania

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British knightly title[edit]

Why should a British knightly title be given as part of the name of a Romanian king? I would remove it, but figured I'd give a chance for an explanation first. -- Jmabel | Talk 17:32, August 7, 2005 (UTC)

I don't think it should be there either. No other monarchs really use foreign honours after their names and I don't think they have it on their pages. I vote to remove it. Craigy (talk) 17:56, August 7, 2005 (UTC)

Sources[edit]

This is largely without sources, on this quite controversial figure. He had his defenders, and he certainly had those who took him far more seriously, but the allusions to books are to fiction. Does someone have citation on this? I was thinking of working on this article, from a rather different angle; I don't want to toss out anything solid that is here, but it is hard to tell what is solid. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:24, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

At the risk of repeating myself: this article rather shortchanges Carol. Admittedly, he was not ultimately a success, but no Eastern European leader of his period was: they were all ultimately crushed between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. He played his hand better than most. The current article doesn't cite anything, and seems to rely mainly on a general sense of his bad reputation. He's a rather important figure in the lead-up to World War II, yet the article is mainly about his love life and his years of exile after he had become an irrelevancy. - Jmabel | Talk 17:32, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Maria Martini[edit]

What were the dates of Carol's liaison with Maria Martini? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:29, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

was Maria Martini Italian?--Deguef (talk) 16:56, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Iron Guard[edit]

What is the basis for saying that Carol "supported [the Iron Guard] in the 1930s"? Doesn't jibe with what I know of him. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:24, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Love-life[edit]

But if we are going to write at length about his love-life, let's try to get it right. I believe the following are the significant figures; I'd like to get some citations on each. I don't have a ton on this; I've read A.L. Easterman's 1942 book, which is a qualified defense of Carol, and other than that it's mostly what I've run across one time or another:

  • Maria Martini, some time around the start of WWI. Carol would be about 20, she was younger (still in school), I believe there was at least one son. Maria died young (1927?).
  • Zizi Lambrino. They married in 1918, had one son. By pretty much all accounts a love match; he renounced his royal rights in favor of a morganatic marriage; his mother, who had previously been trying to keep him away from "fast women" so disapproved that she sharply reversed course and started thrusting them (including Maria, I believe) in his path, successfully breaking the marriage, which was dubiously annulled by a Romanian court.
  • Mirella Marcovici also a key in the breakup with Zizi Lambrino. Actress. I don't know much else about her.
  • Elena of Greece, a royal marriage. Initially also a love match: indeed, the date of Michael's birth relative to the marriage date attests rather more of a love match than is normal among royalty. Marriage opposed by Elena's mother Sophie, who detested Carol's mother Marie, and quite possibly detested Carol as well. The marriage deteriorated rapidly, probably for several reasons. Elena was very much a classist and an elitist, who wished to be surrounded only by others of the "best" birth; Carol liked to hang out with middle-rank officers, liked the kind of party where people drink and sing, definitely not Elena's thing. And then when he took up with Lupescu, that was, from Elena's point of view, pretty much unforgivable.
  • Magda Lupescu: Carol's longtime mistress; married to an officer when they met; much later (post-monarchy), Carol's wife. He gave up the throne for her in '27, lied in '30 and said he'd leave her and take the throne, had her as (by most accounts) his closest confidante for the rest of his life; the general (though by no means uniform) verdict on that is that he chose poorly. Scandal around her may derive more from her Jewish background than her actual character. It's easy to find slanderous comparisons of her to a prostitute (these are often tinged with anti-Semitism); pretty difficult to find anything scandalous in her actual social behavior (she seems to have been rarely seen in public during his reign); pretty hard to work out what was her actual influence on his policies, though few doubt that she was very influential.

If there are others who figure prominently, I'm unaware of them. As far as I can tell, his reputation as a "playboy" dates almost entirely from before the age of about 30.

Again, this is a just sketch of how it looks to me, and I'm not by any means expert, just clueful. I'd be interested in whether anyone can fill in more of the story, and especially if we can start building this up with citations. I'll try to get hold of Easterman's book again some time, but I'd rather have something more solid: Easterman was writing in the midst of WWII and definitely had a few axes to grind (including being unhappy with his own UK gov't's failure to use Romania in the 1930s as a bastion against the Nazis, a role he clearly feels that Carol would have willingly played). - Jmabel | Talk 20:04, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Consort"[edit]

How was Zizi Lambrino a "consort"? During the time he was married to her, he had specifically abjured any claim to the throne. - Jmabel | Talk 23:38, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • ok, then I removed it. Astorknlam 9:30, 29 July 2006

Carol's train out of Romania[edit]

What is the basis of doubt about Carol's train leaving Romania laden with royal treasure? A.L. Easterman, who was very sympathetic to Carol, says so. - Jmabel | Talk 04:36, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Carol II of Romania[edit]

User: Charles please avoid posting comments such as "Have your meds adjusted." This is rude and unconstructive. Also please make any concerns you may have here, and not least I am interested to learn why you think someone who was never crowned can be titled "King."

How about you do the following: Post things like this in one place, not both on my talk page and here and take your own advice. You did not come to this talk page before reverting to your factually incorrect version of what title Michael had. Not all countries have coronations, okay? Michael was king and is still titled king, end of story. Charles 20:24, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Michael I was crowned king on the very day of His second accession to the throne, Sept. 6, 1940. He says so Himself in the Preamble (page 3) to His Dec. 30, 2007 royal Statute ("by the Grace of God, Crowned King of Romania"). Also, there is another source that says so, a priest who witnessed Michael's coronation. Both sources are quoted in Michael I of Romania - the 1930s section. So until the Orthodox Church deposes Him, He remains King as God's anointed sovereign. As far as I know, the Church has never deposed any Orthodox king, so Michael is very likely that He will die as a king. Lil' mouse 3 (talk) 09:31, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Date of birth[edit]

15 October 1893: Is this the date under the Julian calendar (which would be equivalent to 27 October Gregorian), or has it already been converted to Gregorian (meaning he was born 3 October Julian)? -- JackofOz (talk) 05:27, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The role of Italy in the surrender of Romanian territories[edit]

  • It is uncorrect and unfair to involve Italy in the surrender of Romania's territories (to Soviet Union, Hungary and Bulgaria). Italy had no interest in Romanian land and did not have any power to force Romania to surrender its territories to other countries. Italy did not like and distrusted Soviet Union, did not take part to the Molotov-Ribbentro talks, helped Finland at the time of the aggression by Soviet Union. Italy attended instead the Vienna meeting for the compromise with Hungary, but was only invited whilst Germany was ruling the meeting.--Deguef (talk) 17:17, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Authentic patriot?[edit]

Currently, there is a section that reads "He was an authentic patriot, deeply devoted to his land. He made efforts to keep the country in one piece while ha[v]ing to deal with an increasingly vocal and then aggressive fascist movement called the Iron Guard."

It's rather unfortunate in my mind that we put a value judgement here without quoting much reliable stuff. I don't doubt that he was a patriot, but authentic? Also, wasn't it under his watch that Romania several territories to Soviet Union, Hungary etc.

Hitchins argues that Carol II kept Iron Guard alive, but he tried to keep them in check. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MauriceM3 (talk • contribs) 00:30, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No coronation?[edit]

Currently, infobox says that he was never crowned. If that is so, we should explain that in the text somewhere. MauriceM3 (talk) 00:41, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Renunciation of the throne (...repeatedly)[edit]

The "Illustrated London News - May 12, 1928" states that Carol renounced the throne 3 times. "Prince Carol renounced the throne in 1918, after his marriage to Mlle. Lambrino, a marriage later annulled. He again renounced it in 1919. In 1921 he returned to Rumania and married Princess Helen of Greece. At the end of 1925, he made a third renunciation, after having left his wife for Mme. Lupescu."

The same paper reports that the Home Office of the British Government gave him "reasonable time" to leave the country [England] after two chartered aircraft were prevented from leaving Croydon Aerodrome with "propagandist literature, apparently in support of the Prince's revived claim to the Rumanian throne".

Seems he couldn't make up his mind about being King or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.117.35.236 (talk) 15:39, 28 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Scouting?[edit]

Wilson links him to Boy Scouting, in what context?

  • John S. Wilson (1959), Scouting Round the World. First edition, Blandford Press. p. 158

--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 04:18, 31 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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perhaps to marry the Czar's daughter[edit]

The Sun (Baltimore) 1914-04-18 p9 "Out-Of-Town Society"; one of several items, here transcribed entirely:

The Easter season at St. Petersburg is expected to be the most brilliant in a decade. The Crown Prince and Crown Princess of Roumania are there, with their eldest son, Prince Charles, making their second visit to try to arrange a marriage for him with one of the Czar's handsome daughters.

P.S. The next item begins, "The Prince of Wales will go to the Russian capital from Norway ...". Numerous Europeans "enjoy the Easter festivities of Rome and the Riviera" on the "Gregorian or Latin calendar", and also "Russian Easter a week later, according to the Julian or Greek calendar, and falling this year on April 19."

--P64 (talk) 21:38 and 21:46, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]


Decent story about Carol II, after all. It took some time. But it is balanced and scientific. Thanks to new material. Fal63 (talk) 01:30, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Exile[edit]

The exile part of this article could have been extended with his adventurous flight from Romania with Madame Lupescu and his minister and aid Ernest Urdăreanu. Urdăreanu accompanied them on their flight from the country, when the royal train was hounded and shot at by members of the Fascist Iron Guard. First they went to Switzerland and afterwards to Spain, where they stayed in Barcelona, Madrid and Seville. Due to constant pressure from the German and Romanian government for the extradition of Lupescu and Urdăreanu, on account of their suspected crimes and corruption, in March 1941 Urdăreanu organised their flight to Portugal. After a brief stay in Portugal, Carol, Lupescu and Urdăreanu sought asylum further, first in Cuba, afterwards in Mexico and Brazil. Fal63 (talk) 12:30, 30 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Burial place[edit]

They lie outside the cathedral, the burial place of Romanian kings and queens, as Elena was not of royal blood.

I think this is not quite correct. As far as I know, the coffin with the remains of Carol is placed in a chapel of the cathedral, covered with de Romanian flag. Helene Lupescu is buried on the graveyard, outside of the cathedral.--Fal63 (talk) 12:44, 3 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It has been overtaken by his being reburied at his present burial place in 2019 so I have rephrased the references and amalgamated them into a paragraph.Cloptonson (talk) 15:42, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What did he do in the 'Great War'?[edit]

There is a conspicuous gap in the narrative about what service he undertook in WWI, which Romania entered on the side of the Allies and suffered invasion from Bulgaria which had joined the Central Powers; it appears he did nothing between joining the Romanian Senate in late 1914 and his first, morganatic marriage in 1918. As the article does mention, he served as a junior officer in a Prussian (German) regiment but this would have predated the outbreak in 1914.Cloptonson (talk) 20:45, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Romania in the early 20th century had a famously relaxed "Latin" sexual morality, and the British Princess Marie of Edinburgh despite or perhaps because of her Victorian upbringing ended up "going native", having a long series of affairs with various Romanian men with whom she could obtain more emotional and sexual satisfaction than she could with Ferdinand, who fiercely resented being cuckolded."

This paragraph seems extremelly out of place compared to other wikipedia articles, it reads like a buzzfeed think piece. It is poorly written and mentions allegations of affairs as if they are absolute truths. Poldl (talk) 02:30, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed Some Things.[edit]

I tried my best to edit some of the grammatical and flow issues of the article. Let me know if it helped or if you think it looks any better. I primarily edited the summary section and added one citation to make sure that it was covered. Permars (talk) 04:07, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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