Talk:Carlos Gardel

RfC: Gardel photographs in blog

Should the blog Gardel En Fotos be used in the Carlos Gardel article? It has been inserted to support the statement that Gardel's birth is still controversial. Binksternet (talk) 21:36, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

That blog was written in 2008, it's outdated with the recent discovery of his French birth certificate Cambalachero (talk) 15:32, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Birthplace: original research or book sources?

1886 Census

File:Passaporte Gardel.jpg

Charred passport

File:Documento Identidad Argentino Gardel.jpg

ID card

User:Zorzaluruguay has been adding text and images taken from a blog. The three images are shown here on the right. The purpose is to increase the focus on the notional Uruguayan birth of Gardel rather than the more reliably sourced French birth. I have repeatedly removed these changes per WP:RS and WP:NOR. Just today I removed all the blogs, no matter what they said, pro or con.

So what sources do we have? It turns out there have been some good books and scholarly articles written. The first source that is currently used in the article is from UNESCO's Courier, a peer-reviewed scholarly journal. Luis Bocaz says that the evidence is stronger for Toulouse, France, as Gardel's birthplace.

• Bocaz, Luis (March 1986). "Tango Time", UNESCO Courier, p. 11.

Other sources:

• Carlos Gardel: a la luz de la historia, by Nelson Bayardo and José Pedro Rilla. Biografías Aguilar, 2000. ISBN 9974653878. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
• Carlos Gardel: el resplandor y la sombra, by Carlos Zinelli. Corregidor, 1987. (In Spanish.) This book discusses Toulouse and Tacuarembó.
• Vida y milagros de Carlos Gardel, by Nelson Bayardo. Ediciones La República, 1988. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
• The Life, Music, and Times of Carlos Gardel, by Simon Collier. University of Pittsburgh Press, 1986. ISBN 0822984989. This book describes the Toulouse birth and subsequent actions of Gardel's mother.
• more to come... Binksternet (talk) 00:57, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Well done and agree. The sources need to to reliable and verifiable.MartinezMD (talk) 02:23, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Sources continued:

• Carlos Gardel: el silencio de Tacuarembó, by María Selva Ortiz Bosc. Ediciones de la Plaza, 1995. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
• Tacuarembó esquina Carlos Gardel, by Iris Sclavo, also known as Iris Sclavo Armán. Editorial Fin de Siglo, 1993. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
• The Film Industry in Argentina: An Illustrated Cultural History, by Jorge Finkielman. McFarland, 2004. ISBN 0786416289. Pages 116–117 assert the Toulouse birth. No mention of Tacuarembó.
• El tango: & la historia de Carlos Gardel, by Jorge Aravena Llanca. Lom Ediciones, 2003. ISBN 956282554X. (In Spanish.) This book says Toulouse is the birthplace, and tries to explain why and how the Tacuarembó story came to the fore.
• La sonrisa de Gardel: Biografía, mito y ficción, by Jorge Ruffinelli. Ediciones Trilce, 2004. ISBN 9974323568. (In Spanish.) This book says Toulouse is the birthplace, and tries to explain why and how the Tacuarembó story came to the fore.
• France and the Americas: Culture, Politics, and History, by Bill Marshall. ABC-CLIO, 2005. ISBN 1851094113. This encyclopedia says "Gardel was in fact born in Toulouse"; it does not mention Tacuarembó.
• Gardel--: Es un soplo la vida: biografía íntima de Carlos Gardel, by Marily Contreras. Libros del Zorzal, 2005. ISBN 9871081626. (In Spanish.) This book describes in great detail the circumstances of the Toulouse birth. In 1914, men of French citizenship were being drafted for war against Germany. The book tells how Buenos Aires province police chief Cristino Benavidez solved the problem of Gardel's French citizenship by creating a false document setting his birth as 1887, a false year, and in Tacuarembó, Uruguay, a remote location unlikely to be checked against local records. (Simon Collier acknowledges this version but says it cannot be checked against hard facts. Collier gives these hard facts: Gardel first applied for Uruguayan citizenship in October 1920 when he was nearly 30 years old. In November 1920 he was issued a new Argentine ID card as a Uruguayan ex-patriot. On 7 March 1923 he applied for citizenship in Argentina. On 1 May 1923 he took the oath of Argentine citizenship.)
• Necromanía, by Claudio Negrete. SUDAMERICANA, 2011. ISBN 9500737698. (In Spanish.) This book says Toulouse is the birthplace, and explains the Tacuarembó story in light of Gardel avoiding French military service.
• Conociendo a Gardel, by Elsa Felder. Imaginador, 2006. ISBN 9507685588. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
• Gardel, tango que me hiciste bien, by Miguel Arteche. Andres Bello, 1985. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
• Gardel: páginas abiertas, by Eduardo Payssé González. Ed. de la Plaza, 2004. (In Spanish.) This book says Gardel avoided post-WWI retribution by France against French men who did not fight in the war, by claiming Uruguayan birth.
• Repatriación de Gardel, by Ricardo A. Ostuni. Ediciones Corregidor, 1998. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
• Carlos Gardel : biografía autorizada, by Eliseo Alvarez. De la Urraca, 1995. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy; it seems sympathetic to Tacuarembó but points out that Gardel testified in writing in 1931: "I am French, born in Toulouse, 11 December 1890, son of Berthe Gardés."
• Historia artística de Carlos Gardel: estudio cronológico, by Miguel Angel Morena. Ediciones Corregidor, 1985. (In Spanish.) This book says the Toulouse birth is "perfectly established" and that the Tacuarembó documentation was created as a false trail.
• Por siempre, Carlos Gardel, by Augusto Fernández. Ediciones Latinprens Latinoamericanas, 1973. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
• Gardel: la verdad oculta, by Gerardo Bra. Corregidor, 1995. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.

Various books quote Gardel speaking about his nationality, and he is all over the map. He says one thing to one audience and another thing to another audience. He is cagey: he says his nationality is "the Tango", or that he is Rioplatense (from the great Plate River delta region including Buenos Aires and Montevideo.) He says he was born in Toulouse, he says he was born in Tacuarembó, he says he is Argentine. Certainly, we are able to note these quotes but we cannot use any of them for leverage to decide the matter of birthplace. Binksternet (talk) 05:14, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Dear Binksternet,

Gardel never said he was born in France. He was never quoted by any newspaper as saying so. He was quoted many times stating that he was born in Tacuarembo. Why? I don't know and don't care. If there's any subtatiated evidence that he was born Charles Gardes in Toulousse, and by the way not the one born in South America in the mid 1870's nor the one who died at 28 during WWI, then let some one provide it.

I do not ask for one theory to be placed over the other, just to allow them growing space. I would honestly like to see intelligent discussion on this point, unfortunately all documentation put through that he was born in Uruguay is dismissed has forged by Mr. Gardel and left at that, Bocaz's own argument is a one liner stating that he was born in France based on documentation (unvalidated evidence). I would like to know what these assertions are based on, the only documentation put through has been hearsay and some books that reference each other. If they are satisfied with work of that quality then thats fine by me and I personally would not want to contest it.

I know wikipedia is not the place were this issue is going to be resolved, so what I ask for is this, let the people who believe he was indeed born in France to say so, and let the people who believe otherwise to do so. Provided all can state the documentation, but please keep in mind that all the documentation thats showned as valid all back, subjectively, one side of the story.

kind regards, --Zorzaluruguay (talk) 13:21, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia follows its own WP:Neutral point of view policy, a core content guide that must be followed. The NPOV policy "means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." The first thing to notice in that policy is "proportionately", which tells us to give the proper proportion to conflicting theories. The Uruguay theory exists, but it is described and dismissed by so many of the Gardel biographers. The main body of Gardel scholars accepts that he was born in Toulouse, France. The second thing to notice is the part about "published by reliable sources". We will give a detailed account of the Uruguay theory by referring to reliable sources published about the Uruguay theory. We will not argue the case here, nor will we lay out all the evidence in an artificially neutral manner. The two theories are not equal, so allowing them equal coverage would be wrong. Binksternet (talk) 14:25, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Binksternet, i do not agree that providing documented proof of Mr. Gardel's POB creates an artificial neutral environment. The not acceptance of these documents clearly shows an undisguised bias towards those who shout the loudest. When my first edits were questioned, they were removed and I was asked to include citations following wikipedia's guidelines. I've include citations that not only strictly followed these guidelines but also allowed the best possible definition of source and context. The piece of work, the creator and the publisher all are governments (Argentina and France). The context of the citations can't be questioned as they are simple governmental documents that testify to the identity of an individual. Additionally, these documents are the foundation of Mr. Gardel's argentine naturalization. If these documents are contested, then proof should at least be presented.

Regarding proportionallity, I won't argue there, I will comply and begin compiling all work related to Gardel during his lifetime. These include official documents, articles written about him and interviews published in several newspapers of note (from several continents). These outnumber by a wide margin the few books regarding the second theory.

--Zorzaluruguay (talk) 16:08, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

You are welcome to bring information to the article. At some point, the amount of information devoted to Uruguay as a birthplace will cross a threshold of undue weight, and any further information will be removed. That threshold is a judgment call—I am leaning toward severity but others might be more lenient. No matter what changes you make, the article will always need to tell the reader that the mainstream opinion of scholars is that Gardel, informally called "El francesito" (Frenchie) by his barra (group of male friends), was born in France. WP:NPOV requires no less. Binksternet (talk) 23:12, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

It is not the mainstream of scholars that believe he was born in Toulouse, it is the mainstream of scholars that you are allowing to be referenced. What you are doing constitutes censorship.

--Zorzaluruguay (talk) 12:42, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

You have not proven your point. You have not shown a long list of books saying Gardel was born in Uruguay. Binksternet (talk) 15:30, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

I have proven my point, I'll clarify in case you missed it. I really do not care where the man was born. I know that there are two theories, and wanted to show the documentation that backs them. --Zorzaluruguay (talk) 21:30, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Birth certificate.

The mystery has been solved: Gardel was French. --190.19.96.181 (talk) 14:28, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

That news item quotes a book that we already have in the article as a reference:

• de Saint-Blancat, Monique Ruffié; Esteban, Juan Carlos; Galopa, Georges (2006). Carlos Gardel: Sus Antecedentes Franceses (in Spanish). Corregidor. ISBN 9500516349.

In the news article, I like the photo of the authors. Binksternet (talk) 15:22, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

The book referenced in the article is not the same (that one is 6 years old, and this one just came out). The new book (by the same authors) is called "El padre de Gardel" (Gardel's Father), edited by Proa/Amerian Editores. --Nazroon (talk) 16:26, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I see. I am looking forward to the new book. Binksternet (talk) 18:12, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually it's a different book, called El padre de Gardel and published by Proa Amerian Editores. Most importantly, unlike Carlos Gardel: Sus Antecedentes Franceses it contains conclusive evidence of his birth certificate, showing that his real name, Charles Romuald Gardes, was recorded on December 11, 1890 at the register office in Toulouse, France. --190.19.96.181 (talk) 18:20, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

December 2013

Can anyone prove that a child born in Tolouse with a name similar ( but not the same) to another child born in Tacuarembo three years earlier, are in fact the same child? or can we also start pulling birth certificates of other children born around the same time with similar names and claim that they are in fact the same Carlos Gardel that has several documents stating his birth place as Tacuarembo, same documents that contain his fingerprints and picture. Why would the French be proud of a person that was a fraudster that did not want to fight for his supposed country? I rather would keep Gardel in history as an honest Uruguayan than a coward, fraudster French. Wouldn't you? He is too big for any of us to be treated with such a disrespect. Gabriel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.9.43.128 (talk) 22:35, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Tacuarembo steps

The article says "for unknown reasons he laid a false trail about his birthplace beginning in 1920 when he was almost 30" and "there is no agreement regarding why he took these steps" (i.e. saying that he was born in Tacuarembó). I think it is worth the mention that the opinion of the majority of the scholars is that he did that to avoid being forced to join the military for France, in WWI. The latest book, which confirms his French nationality (link in section "Birth certificate" right up this section), acknowledges this. --Nazroon (talk) 15:26, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Binksternet (talk) 15:58, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I am not sure where to place this as reference. It is an article of El Pais, after the birth certificate issue, which argues for the Uruguayan position. http://www.elpais.com.uy/121021/pespec-670872/espectaculos/-nos-contaron-algo-que-no-tiene-nada-que-ver-con-gardel-/ Cheers, Hoverfish Talk 10:32, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

"Origin"

Is "Origin" necessary in the Info Box? Is this a legitimated category? Is this a common category? Tapered (talk) 00:15, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

See Template:Infobox musical artist. The "origin" parameter is commonly used to show the difference between where a singer was born and where he first became famous. Gardel is a prime example of someone who did not become famous in the place where he was born. Binksternet (talk) 01:40, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Go to the first source

I know about the controversy about Gardel's nationality. At least include the fact that there is a Carlos Gardel´s Museum in Uruguay with documents, including his birth certificate that proves that he was born in Uruguay. Does it make any sense?

http://www.tacuarembodigital.com.uy/gardeliana_museo.html Tacuarembo Digital.com.uy You can see the photographs of the documents that proves his Uruguayan origin.

I know many people have visited the museum and seen the documents. Do you want me to upload a photograph of his birth certificate in commons?

User:Roxyuru —Preceding undated comment added 03:34, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

The certificate on display in Uruguay is not original, not written when he was born. Gardel obtained a new birth certificate in 1920 when he was beginning to get famous, when he was thinking about touring France as a tango singer. Binksternet (talk) 04:07, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

He also misses the point that Gardel's own trusted attorney released Gardels' statement about his birth and later historians verified it with the corroborating birth certificate in France. There is also an entire section in the article reviewing the controversy. It doesn't need to have an edit war. MartinezMD (talk) 22:59, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

"As dead as Gardel"

In Ernesto Mallo's crime novel Needle in a Haystack, set in the 1970s, the protagonist, when asked if someone is dead, replies "As dead as Gardel". Is this a frase hecha in Argentine Spanish, or is just a bit of noirism? Diomedea Exulans (talk) 08:44, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Argentinian DNI said Gardel was Uruguayan born in Tacuarembó

The DNI of Carlos Gardel in Argentina said that Gardel was Born in Tacuarembó in December 11 of 1887, and have his fingerprint, this is the articule that Martina Iguñez from Argentina show the DNI http://www.elpais.com.uy/informacion/polemica-exhiben-cedula-carlos-gardel.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Santiis2010 (talk • contribs) 14:13, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Do you read the entire talk page above this section? Much of the information is discredited as coming long after his birth. For now the UNESCO source is considered the most reliable.MartinezMD (talk) 14:33, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Born place: NO Neutral

I'm Roblespepe, founder of the Tango Project at the Wikipedia in Spanish, and one of the main editors of Carlos Gardel page in the Wikipedia in Spanish. I saw that Gardel's page at the Wikipedia in English says that was born in Uruguay. This statment is wrong, because that fact is discused between tango researchers. Some of them sustain that Gardel was born in Uruguay between 1883 and 1887, and some of them sustain that Gardel was born in France in 1890. The former theory is called "teoría uruguayista" (Uruguayist Theory), and the later is called "teoría francesista" (Francesist Theory).

"Francesist Theory" is the traditional theory. Researchers who sustain this theory are: Francisco García Jiménez-José Razzano, Simon Collier, Julián & Osvaldo Barsky, Augusto Fernández, Carlos Esteban, Monique Ruffié, Georges Galopa, Christiane Bricheteau, Raúl Torre, Juan Fenoglio, Enrique Espina Rawson, Norberto Regueira, etc.

"Uruguayist Theory" appeared in 1967. Researchers who sustain this theory are: Erasmo Silva Cabrera (Avlis), Blas Matamoro, Nelson Bayardo, Eduardo Payssé González, Martina Iñíguez.

So I think this article must say that there are two theories, following the neutral point of view principle.--Roblespepe (talk) 15:09, 23 October 2015 (UTC).

The article already covers the birthplace controversy in detail and has an ENTIRE SECTION dedicated to that. The UNESCO report was very well researched and is reliable. To add or to alter the existing article takes sources of equal or greater credibility and should be noted with the changes. In addition, your latest changes deleted uncontroversial information like the his death date from the info box, and the fact that he later obtained Argentine citizenship. I've reverted the article back to where it was and we can all review the information here.MartinezMD (talk) 15:42, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Ok Martinez. Fair enough. The main discussion between "francesistas" and "uruguayistas" researchers is limited to four elements:

a) Birth name: Uruguayistas say that his born name was Carlos Gardel. Francesistas say that his born name was Charles Gardes.

b) Birthplace: Uruguayistas say that the born place was Tacuarembó, Uruguay. Francesistas say that the born place was Toulouse, France.

c) Nationality up to 1923: Uruguayistas say that he born Uruguayan. Francesistas say that he born French.

d) Birthday: Francesistas say that he was born on December 11 1890. Uruguayistas also say that he was born on December 11, but they desagree with the year. Different Uruguayistas researchers sustain different years, from 1883 to 1887.

So my proposal is to put both controversial data. What do you think?--Roblespepe (talk) 03:14, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

The article's baseline, by the way, lists France as his birthplace, not Uruguay. If you saw Uruguay it is from anonymous editors who keep changing it. The sources in the article say that Gardel himself wrote in his last will that he was Gardes. The UNESCO report says he is French. Then decades after his death, in 2012, his birth certificate was found confirming the information.

There is very poor documentation supporting the Uruguayan version of his birth. Based on the sourced information in the article, he is French. To list Uruguay I believe would give undue weight to those lesser sources.

Lastly, I will support whatever reliable sources state. That is the main criteria. MartinezMD (talk) 04:29, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Martínez, as Wikipedians it's not our role to be jugdges of the discussions between tango researchers, and Wikipedia isn't the place to discuss seriously this toppic. The fact is that there are two points of view, both of them with several researchers and publications, and that the tango academic community is divided. So the Wikipedia article must say that, in these aspects (birthday year, birth place and birth name) there are two points of view. In other hand Wikipedia can't support one of them, or say -as you suggest- that the Uruguayan theory has "very poor documentation supporting". That's completley out of our role here. Kind regards. --Roblespepe (talk) 20:30, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

PS: Martínez. I have now one doubt. You talked about "reliable sources". I'm confused. Had you or hasn't you read the main books published by the Uruguayans theory reserchers? I assumed that you had because you talked about the documentation, but now I'm not sure.--Roblespepe (talk) 20:36, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

I've read the sources on both sides. I read all the sources listed in the article to be specific, although I could likely use a review to refresh my memory because it has been a while. I think perhaps I find more likely the French theory because his Uruguayan birth certificate was not obtained until he was in his 20s, not at the time of his birth, and the will that was released after his death and the French birth certificate support the French origin along with the UNESCO article. I'll defer to a consensus on this, but I thought that had already been obtained in the past and periodically editors newer to article will come in and change it. Then a new series of debates starts all over.MartinezMD (talk) 21:40, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

OK, Martinez, I can see that you are not neutral in this point, because you are in favour of the French Theory. Of course I respect you, in the same way I respect any other editor supporting the Uruguayan Theory. But what I'm saying is that Wikipedia must be neutral. It's one of the pillars of Wikipedia. So it isn't correct to say, in the Wikipedia article, that de French Theory is the true theory. Because there is no consensus about that. The article must say that there are two theories, and that the researchers are divided. None of them is majority, so we have to respect the current state of the research. The two theories have their arguments and their failures, and there is no conclusive document. There is no Uruguayan birth certificate (in fact, the Uruguayan Theory has several hypothetical birtyh years, from 1883 to 1887). The French certificate is real without any doubt, but it's about Charles Gardes, and the Uruguayan Theory says that Carlos Gardel and Charles Gardes where not the same person. The Gardel's will is also real, but it was signed the day he leave Argentina, with a lot of questions about who wrote it and with what intention. The school registers are also very controversial, specially the photograph that his mother (Berta) had in her house, showing a strange building that has no correspondence with any school building in Buenos Aires, but perhaps a big correspondence with a school placed at Montrevideo. So the fact is that each document or argument of one side is contested by another argument/document from the other side. What I'm propossing to you is to be neutral, and to not take one side as true, at least in the Wikipedia article. I think this position is only one that corresponds to Wikipedia's neutral point of view principle. Hoping you can accept my propossal. Kind regars, --Roblespepe (talk) 13:03, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't have a preference for him to be from one place or another. On that I am truly neutral. We must consider if some information provides undue influence or not. What I want is lasting consensus that provides article stability. Look at the history of the article and the talk page archives. Did you read those? This debate and the associated changes have been ongoing for almost 10 years on WP and it is not good from an academic standpoint in my opinion.MartinezMD (talk)

Ok Martínez. I think we agree that both theories are only that, "theories". None of them can claim to be truth. In the Spanish Wikipedia we solved the conflict in a very simple and neutral way: saying that there are two theories. So we don't took any side.

• Birth place: Tacuarembó (Ur. th) / Toulouse (Fr. th)
• Real name: Carlos (Ur. th) / Charles Romuald Gardes (Fr. th)
• Birth day: December 11th (both theories)
• Birth year: 1883-1887 (Ur. th) / 1890 (Fr. th)

--Roblespepe (talk) 22:53, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm okay with that. If you want to make those changes I can support it.MartinezMD (talk) 07:29, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Ok Martínez. Glad to share with you this debate.--Roblespepe (talk) 05:50, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry to have missed this discussion from late October. Roblespepe is correct that there are two theories but unfortunately for Uruguayans the France theory has the backing of scores of academics while the Uruguay theory has false evidence and impartial advocacy. The France theory is so far out in front of the Uruguay theory that it would be violation of WP:WEIGHT to give Uruguay so much validity. Binksternet (talk) 18:46, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Hi Binkesternet. ¿Why do yo say that? Both sides say that the other has false evidence. Very few academics has investigated the facts. For the French Theory: Augusto Fernández, Monique Ruffié, Georges Galopa, Christiane Bricheteau, Raúl Torre, Juan Fenoglio, Enrique Espina Rawson and Norberto Regueira. For the Uruguayan Theory: Erasmo Silva Cabrera, Blas Matamoro, Nelson Bayardo, Eduardo Payssé González, Martina Iñíguez and Ricardo Casas. Both sides have their strong points and their weak points, and both sides has refuted the other side arguments. I read all the books from both sides, and have a very good panorama of them. If you have any doubt, I'll be glad to analize it carefully with you. All I know is that the dispute is far from being solved, and that the born place of Gardel is full of dark aspects and non answered questions. I strongly recomend that Wikipeia must give all the information about the two theories, but without saying that one or the other is better. Kind regards Bink...--Roblespepe (talk) 20:44, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, but no. The scholarly case is carried by those who say Gardel was born in France. The great majority of high quality sources are in agreement on this point. In the article, we say "Scholars such as Vanderbilt University history professor Simon Collier, University of Belgrano agriculture history professor Osvaldo Barsky and Uruguayan history professor Jorge Ruffinelli from Stanford University write about how Gardel was born in Toulouse, France, in 1890, and how he laid a false trail about his birthplace beginning in 1920, when he was almost 30." Those who say Uruguay are in the minority. UNESCO wanted to answer the question so they analyzed the research by both sides and determined that the France theory was much more sound. Binksternet (talk) 03:23, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

References

Binkesternet. None of them investigate the place where Gardel was born. The researchers who investigate the place where Gardel was bor are:

• French theory: Augusto Fernández, Carlos Esteban, Monique Ruffié, Georges Galopa, Christiane Bricheteau, Raúl Torre Juan Fenoglio, Enrique Espina Rawson, and Norberto Regueira.
• Uruguayan theory: Erasmo Silva Cabrera, Blas Matamoro, Nelson Bayardo, Eduardo Payssé González, Martina Iñíguez.

About Collier. When he wrote Gardel's biography the research about the born place of Gardel was not done. It's real that there are a little more researchers from France and Argentina, than from Uruguay. But you have to have in mind, that Uruguay is a very very little country (3 million inhabitants). And in the last years, some historians, like Martia Iñiguez, who use support the French theory, change her mind, and now she is supporting Uruguayan theory.

Binkesternet, I'm not supporting one or the other theory. Is not my role. But I have studied carefully both research works, and I can assure you that there is no such a thing like a "great majority of quality source". Kind regards.--Roblespepe (talk) 22:30, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Ok. I put it clear who are the researchers on both theories. ¿There are no devolutions?--Roblespepe (talk) 19:08, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

• There aren't two theories. There's a birth certificate in Toulouse. If you read the 1986 UNESCO Courier article, the birth certificate was already a known document—so well known that Toulouse held a 1985 event to commemorate the 50th anniversary of El Mudo's death. There are photos of Gardel with the Gardes extended family in France. His 1890 birth in Toulouse is a stone cold fact—unless you operate in an alternate universe.The theory of Uruguayan origin is fantastic—in the literal sense of the word. In contravenes tangible reality. All the noise, wasted paper and server capacity in the world can't alter terrestrial reality. For the record, any ostensible documents supporting Gardel's Uruguayan origins are, by definition, forgeries. Tapered (talk) 23:46, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Gardel is Uruguayan not Argentine

Hola buenas tardes le pido porfavor que quité que Gardel es argentino nonlo es es uruguayo y ay pruebas de su nacimiento en Uruguay. Lucio259 (talk) 19:50, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Perdón el autocorrector lo que decir es que Gardel es uruguayo no Argentino* Lucio259 (talk) 19:51, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Porfavor quien que es Aventino no Lo es Lucio259 (talk) 19:52, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, but the Uruguayan evidence is false, and the French evidence is fully established. Binksternet (talk) 21:06, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

[En español: Lo siento mucho, pero la evidencia uruguaya es falsa, y la evidencia francesa está completamente establecida.] Por favor, lea la sección "Birthplace controversy".—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:10, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Carlos Gardel Abasto Buenos Aires.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:22, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

There is a case at the DRN regarding this page.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This message is to inform interested editors of a discussion at the Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding the birthplace of Gardel. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. Any editors are welcome to add themselves as a party, and you are both invited and encouraged to help this dispute come to a resolution. The thread is "Carlos Gardel". Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you! Galendalia _{CVU Member} \ ^{Chat Me Up} 07:01, 12 May 2020 (UTC) (DRN Volunteer)

•  Note to participants:: The editor who opened the DR has not been responsive, so the DR case is being closed and an RFC will be opened in a few minutes. Galendalia _{CVU Member} \ ^{Chat Me Up} 23:10, 14 May 2020 (UTC) _{DRN Volunteer}

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RFC Date/Place of birth

This dispute is originating from the DRN (Case Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Carlos_Gardel) which has been closed due to the opening case editor being non-responsive. There is a controversy on the date and place of birth. Thanks! Galendalia _{CVU Member} \ ^{Chat Me Up} 23:15, 14 May 2020 (UTC) _{DRN Volunteer}

I think that the Birthplace controversy explains the controversy. The preponderance of the current verification indicates that Gardel was born in France. There are 17 citations in all in this section.

I have also read a Google translation of the Spanish version & looked at the original, for which the corresponding section is Controversias sobre su lugar de nacimiento (Controversies over his birthplace). There appears to be 17 citations in the section on France & 17 citations in the section on Uruguay.

Additionally, I have read a Google translation of the French version & looked at the original, for which the corresponding section is Controverse sur son lieu de naissance (Controversy over his place of birth). This is not as well documented, with about three citations in the France section & four in the Uruguay section.

I would appreciate it if someone who could read Spanish, French, & English well could examine all the available citations. My English-centric US education did not prepare me well for this task, & I am able to read Spanish & French only at a very basic level.

I will note that both the Spanish & French versions take an "Either/Or" approach, listing both possible birth places & birth dates, while at the same time appearing to lean to the French birthplace & birthdate. Perhaps we should consider the same for the English version, at least until DNA testing establishes more certainty.

Peaceray (talk) 05:49, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

I skimmed them both. For the Spanish-language article, there are few sources online that are reliable; this is a blog I don't know the origin, but it was written by Juan Carlos Esteban, which has written about Gardel. For the French version, it starts with le professeur Christiane Bricheteau prouve de façon irréfutable les origines toulousaines de Carlos Gardel (the professor Christiane Bricheteau irrefutably proved the Toulousian origins of Gardel); however, there are five sources, two offline, a blog, a reliable source, and this link hosted by the National University of San Luis, which has photocopies of Gardel's French birth certificate. © Tbhotch^™ (en-3). 20:35, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

There was a second plane

The account of Gardel's death mentions several others who were on the plane with him. There is, however, no mention of the other plane and the deaths that occurred there. A total of seventeen persons died, including Lester W. Strauss, an American mining engineer on that other plane. <The New York Times, June 25, 1935, p. 1> The indifference of the account of Gardel's death to those on the other plane whose lives were also lost is unfortunate and warrants correction by persons able to add some account of them. [Lester W. Strauss, I should say, was my grandfather; my father Simon D. Strauss learned of his death in the Times, reading it on Broadway; it is not that he, specially, warrants mention, but attention to the deaths on only one plane, as it no others were worthy of mention, is unfortunate] Plsathome (talk) 13:37, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

The involvement of a second plane is clearly relevant to the article. As for who should be mentioned in the article, that is strictly an issue of notability WP:NOTE. I just got Collier's book and will be reading it to see what it mentions as well. MartinezMD (talk) 01:24, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't believe that mention of other deaths should be based only on "notability." People who are not "celebrities" deserve respect in death also. The accident is notable, and everybody whose identity is known should be mentioned. Presumably this is not a gossip column, it is an encyclopedia, so it's entries should be "encyclopedic." That is, all known information on a topic should be included.

On a related topic, do we know that both aircraft were Ford Tri-motors? I seem to recall reading that Gardel's plane was a Fokker tri-motor, and that the other plane was another type of aircraft. Also, weren't the pilots of Gardel's plane American? These are interesting details which should be researched and included if true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.183.27.92 (talk) 05:36, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 June 2021

Most likely, Gardel was born in Tacuarembó (Uruguay). The controversy surrounding his birth place can be found here: https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Gardel#Controversias_sobre_su_lugar_de_nacimiento 104.138.184.82 (talk) 18:16, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Melmann 18:21, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

The idea is ridiculous that the Spanish-language version of this article is somehow superior. That article is in the grip of editors who believe the falsehoods about Tacuarembó, and who do NOT believe serious scholarly authors and larger scholarly organizations who have all confirmed Toulouse, France.

Rather than bringing some of Spanish-language Wikipedia here, we should organize an intervention there, to stop the nonsense. Binksternet (talk) 19:36, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 August 2021

Carlos Gardel was actually born in Tacuarembó Uruguay. It was proven by finding his birth certificate which said he was born in Uruguay. 2800:A4:16FD:E800:78B9:75FC:9FA2:5588 (talk) 23:08, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. This entire talk page seems to be dedicated to this topic so far, edit requests aren't for controversial changes, and we need reliable sources for this, which so far have not surfaced. If you have one, feel free to include it here. ASUKITE 23:39, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

• Carlos Gardel, Argentine tango singer, portrait.jpg (discussion)
• Gardel-Silva-1923.jpg (discussion)

Participate in the deletion discussions at the nomination pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:53, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Wrong

Carlos gardel was born in tacuarembò uruguay and we have documents to prove it ! This wikipedia is false , you should say the truth and this is not. 2A00:23EE:1430:607E:A05A:1583:18F0:3459 (talk) 18:50, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

There has been much discussion of this at Talk:Carlos Gardel/Archive 1 & above on this page. You have provided no documents. Without verification from reliable sources, you might as well spit into the wind. If you have documents to prove it, then please provide them. Peaceray (talk) 19:36, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 January 2023

Change Carlos Gardel was a french born argentine singer to Carlos Gardel was a Uruguayan singer as stated by multiple books with supporting evidence such as Gardel es uruguayo bayardo. 2800:AC:4023:A6F:8131:A895:6881:30FA (talk) 18:48, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

No. This has been asked and answered numerous times. Read above in the talk page and archive. MartinezMD (talk) 19:30, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Gardel's birthplace and neutral point of view

This article is biased, because the question about the birthplace of Carlos Gardel is not solved yet, in my opinion. Scheridon (talk) 16:39, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinion. Wikipedia uses WP:SECONDARY sources rather than the opinions of editors.

The birthplace controversy is a manufactured issue, created in the 1960s by writer Erasmo Silva Cabrera. Cabrera's assertions were expanded upon by other writers who wanted to sell books and make money, and didn't mind publishing falsehoods. Cabrera's version of things was proved entirely wrong in 2012 when Gardel's French birth certificate was authenticated. That's why this article is so emphatic about the France birthplace. Unfortunately, editors at Spanish-language Wikipedia are ruled by a clique of Uruguayan believers, which means the Spanish-language biography gives a false balance while this English one assigns accurate weight to each source, presenting the most neutral version of things. Binksternet (talk) 17:15, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

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• Carlos Gardel - Cheating muchachita (Amargura)(1934.ogg
• Carlos Gardel-Recuerdo malevo (1933).ogg
• Carlos Gardel-Sus ojos se cerraron (1935).ogg

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Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Tenor or baritone? Both?

Some sources call him a tenor, many call him a baritone, and one or two sources describe him as a combination, commenting on his wide range.

• Edmundo E. Eichelbaum's 1985 book Carlos Gardel says, "Con un caudal de voz más bien reducido , emplea con sumaria habilidad el falsete. (With a rather reduced volume of voice, he uses the falsetto with great skill.) "Carlos Gardel es un tenor que se acerca al barítono." (Carlos Gardel is a tenor close to baritone.) "Su registro es mucho más amplio, porque puede llegar desde el contralto (en falsete) hasta notas bien graves." (His range is much broader, because it can come from alto in falsetto to very low notes.)
• Simon Collier in The Life, Music, and Times of Carlos Gardel (1986), wrote in a footnote on page 315 that Gardel's New York radio appearances were announced as "Carlos Gardel – baritone." Collier notes on page 155 that Gardel's voice teacher, Eduardo Bonessi, described Gardel as having "a brilliant baritone register" with a range of two octaves. Throughout the book, Collier describes Gardel as a baritone.
• Eliseo Alvarez wrote in Carlos Gardel: biografía autorizada (1995) that Gardel had "cuerdas vocales de excepción que le permitían, siendo barítono extenderse a registros propios de un tenor o un bajo." (Exceptional vocal cords that allowed him, being a baritone, to extend to registers typical of a tenor or a bass.) See page 71.
• Harry Milkewitz wrote in Psicología Del Tango (1964) that Gardel's range stretched from "tenor a barítono, canta con un afrancesado 'vibratto', con una impostación densa, y un fraseo lento y modulado..." (Tenor to baritone, singing with a French 'vibrato', with a dense delivery, and a slow and modulated phrasing..."

I don't think we can fairly represent Gardel by just saying "tenor". Binksternet (talk) 13:28, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough. How about using your own edit summary and say He was known for his rich voice, described as "tenor close to baritone", and dramatic phrasing. MartinezMD (talk) 16:50, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Good suggestion. Before I saw your response, I threw in a similar solution describing him variously as a baritone or tenor because of his wide vocal range. See which one works better. Binksternet (talk) 19:03, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

this works fine for me. No objection. MartinezMD (talk) 01:18, 17 January 2024 (UTC)