Talk:Carlon Colker/Archive 1

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Archive 1

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Pevin Mercury Poisoning

Just a few comments on the latest addition[1] regarding the Pevin story. First, the way the the entry is written it basically implies that The New York Times reported something about Colker, when in fact it didn't. It's an example of WP:SYNTH, fusing two sources together (the NYT article and the arbitration transcript) to reach an original and, in this case, misleading conclusion/attribution. The NYT article talks only about Pevin and doesn't mention anything at all about Colker or his medical judgement. In fact, the NYT article and the arbitration transcript both indicate that a big part of Pevin being released from his contract involved procedural issues with Actor's EQUITY bylaws that had nothing to do with the medical aspect of the story. That's irrelevant to Colker and it's not reflected in the text that was added.

Second, what was added here was an arbitrator's opinion on the soundness of Colker's motives/medical opinion. This is not a court case; it was a private arbitration and the ruling was not handed down by a judge but rather by an attorney acting as arbitrator (George Nicolau, an 84-year-old New York attorney). So there is an issue with providing sufficient detail about this arbitration hearing,

The new conclusion to the Pevin entry basically implies that the NYT reported that some judge deemed Colker's decision to be sound and the sole reason for releasing Pevin from his contract. In other words, it's misleading. If this material is to be included, it should read something like "The production company for Speed The Plow contested Pevin's abrupt withdrawal from the show and brought the matter before an arbitrator. Attorneys representing the show's producers and the Actors Equity Association argued that (include summary of Mamet's arguments). The arbitrator in the case, George Nicolau (an 84-year-old New York attorney) ruled in favor of Pevin on the basis that (summarize rationale including the Equity bylaw reasons). Regarding Colker, Nicolau commented that he believed that the doctor 'was acting in good faith and that his opinion was not grounded solely on Piven’s subjective reports'."

BTW, while reading the arbitration transcript, I also found it noteworthy that Pevin was referred to Colker for medical consultation by Pevin's chiropractor, Dennis Colonello, who runs the LA-based sister clinic to Colker's Peak Wellness in CT. It's also interesting that Colker had initially diagnosed Pevin with mononucleosis and Epstein Barr virus, and later came out with the surprising mercury poisoning finding, which was Pevin's ultimate excuse for leaving the show. There a few other notable details in there as well.

I'm going to revert the edit for now pending further comment. Rhode Island Red (talk) 22:48, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

How about we separate it into:

The [[New York Times|New York Times]] reported that Piven won in arbitration.[1] The arbitrator stated Dr. Colker “ was acting in good faith and that his opinion was not grounded solely on Piven’s subjective reports".[2]

Would that address issues of synth?

References

  1. ^ http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/arbitrator-rules-in-favor-of-jeremy-piven-in-speed-the-plow-dispute/
  2. ^ http://documents.nytimes.com/pulling-back-the-curtain-on-a-broadway-dispute#p=1 pg.36
--

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:59, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Still problematic because it's so stripped of details and context as to be essentially meaningless. Pevin won what? What was the nature of the arbitration case? Who did it involve? Who was the arbitrator? What was the basis for the ruling? The text I included as an example in my comment above gives you an idea of the kind of key details and attributions that would typically be included. I was going to flesh out the last few details over the weekend and then add/propose some specific text, which we can of course discuss further if necessary. Acceptable? Rhode Island Red (talk) 23:27, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
Sure will leave it to you. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:50, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

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Diff=822978404

Hey Rhode Island Red,

Bringing the recent revert diff to your attention. Thanks in advance for working with me on this and apologize for the abridged edit summary beforehand. In researching this entry, particularly the 'MYO-X/MYO-T12' section, I found the information on myostatin banning by the World Anti-Doping Agency (including Colker's quote) to be relevant credible information, but getting offtopic. These two sentences were not eliminated, but moved to the Myostatin#Athletic_use section cross-referencing Colker to relate the two subjects. See diff here. It has since been changed from "Gene doping" to "Athletic use" fyi (not by me). Let me know your thoughts on this move and willing to work on this if more text is applicable?

Secondly, endorsing MYO-X is not mentioned anywhere within the body of Justin Bieber's article. Where would this information be suited there? News Team Assemble![talk?] 16:28, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

(1) I have no objections to including that information in the myostatin article as well as this one. (2) I have no comment on nor interest in Bieber's page but if that's your cup of tea, have at it. Rhode Island Red (talk) 21:07, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
Hey User:Rhode Island Red, Thanks for responding. I'm going to move that information regarding Bieber's criticism to his page as the subsection on the existing page begins to go offtopic. Along those same lines, I'm revising and condensing the information regarding the SEC documents. The information pertaining to the distribution of MYO-X and Cenegenics Muscle Formula by Maximum Human Performance and Cenegenics respectively begin to veer offtopic as well, and may be more relevant in a different article.
My thinking is to focus this subsection on Colker's involvement with the supplement, from its development to selling the marketing rights and ultimately his resigning as scientific adviser. Per WP:TOPIC, these revisions should help with the entry's overall readability. News Team Assemble![talk?] 15:08, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for replying. If you'll notice, I didn't assent to a move of the content in question but rather including it in Bieber's article as well. I have reverted the latest edits for now pending further discussion of each of the specific changes. I also noticed that some source attributions were removed; I don't see why. Rhode Island Red (talk) 15:57, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Hey Rhode Island Red, stepped away for a few days and now seeing the reverts. My WL brought up the latest additions / revisions regarding this entry. The O'Neal thing stinks of promotional, so thanks for cleaning in my absence. Reading through the applicable sections, it seems like "Media appearances" hosts celebrity affiliations. Is there a better place for this information? Arguably, we may want to retitle this section as may not fit elsewhere.

Diving back into the MYO-X section, I think each sentence should be refocused to tie Colker directly to MYO-X. The purpose of these revisions is to make his connection to the supplement easier to understand. As the section exists, I find myself getting lost and confused by the high-level technical writing. By pointing out in the first sentence that Colker developed MYO-X, we can clarify his ground-floor involvement in the supplement's advancement and distribution. As to the citations I removed (#46 and #47 in the existing revision), I did so per my attempts to aid the section's readability as the sources dilute the narrative as opposed to concentrating Colker's involvement.

Bieber's use of MYO-X is what makes the supplement notable. Colker's specific involvement is that he introduced Bieber to the supplement. I don't want the aside regarding criticism Bieber received on Twitter to detract from Colker's promotion of MYO-X. But I think the source substantiating that sentence is important for context and should be cited on the sentence that directly relates Bieber to Colker. I do think the criticism Bieber received is important so I added it to his entry already.

Lastly, I noticed that the source cited for the World Anti-Doping Agency ban has rotted. I'm replacing it with an updated source featuring a PDF of WADA's Prohibited List. News Team Assemble![talk?] 10:30, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

For clarity, how about framing the proposed modifications as follows: Original text: "x1, y1, z1" | Proposed revision: "x2, y2, z2".Rhode Island Red (talk) 15:52, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
BTW, I'm OK with replacing the WADA link. There is an archive URL that could be used[2] but it makes sense to link to the latest version. Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:20, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
Hey User:Rhode Island Red:
Original text: In January 2015, Entertainment Tonight reported that entertainer Justin Bieber had credited Colker with recommending MYO-X, a dietary supplement that Bieber had allegedly used in preparation for a Calvin Klein underwear photo shoot. Bieber was criticized for "…hyping Colker’s latest “miracle” supplement MYO-X, to his 59 million Twitter fans."
SEC documents filed by the manufacturer (MYOS Corp.; dba Atlas Therapeutics until May 2012), indicate that the product consists of a powder isolated from the yolk of fertilized chicken eggs. It was developed by Colker in 2005 as a supplement formulation that was marketed initially under the trade name Folstaxan by Celldyne Biopharma LLC and, subsequently, under the trade name MYO-T12 by Atlas/MYOS. The product was implied to contain follistatin and to increase muscle mass by inhibiting myostatin.
In February 2011, Colker sold the marketing rights and trademarks for MYO-T12 to MYOS for $1.15 million and entered into a three-year employment agreement to serve as the company’s Chief Medical Officer and Executive vice-president, resigning in 2012 to serve as a scientific advisor for the company in exchange for 300,000 shares of common stock. Under the terms of licensing agreements with MYOS, MYO-T12 is distributed by Maximum Human Performance (MHP) under the brand name MYO-X, and by Cenegenics (NASDAQ:CELG) under the brand name Cenegenics Muscle Formula (Fortetropin).
Myostatin inhibitors are specifically banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA). In an August 12, 2012 interview with National Public Radio, Colker stated "when the myostatin inhibitors come along, they'll be abused. There's no question in my mind."
Proposed text: In January 2015, Justin Bieber credited Colker with recommending MYO-X, a dietary supplement that Bieber claimed to have used in preparation for a Calvin Klein underwear photo shoot.
Reasoning: Bieber's use of MYO-X is what makes the supplement notable. Colker's specific involvement is that he introduced Bieber to the supplement. I don't want the aside regarding criticism Bieber received on Twitter to detract from Colker's promotion of MYO-X.
Proposed text: The product consists of a powder isolated from the yolk of fertilized chicken eggs and claims to contain follistatin and to increase muscle mass by inhibiting myostatin. It was developed by Colker in 2005 as a supplement formulation and was marketed under the trade name Folstaxan by Celldyne Biopharma LLC and under the trade name MYO-T12 by Atlas Therapeutics.
Reasoning: I think each sentence should be refocused to tie Colker directly to MYO-X in order to make his connection to the supplement easier to understand. But as the text stands, I find myself getting lost and confused by the high-level technical writing. Instead I propose a simplified wording that clarifies what the supplement is, and Colker's ground-floor involvement in the supplement's advancement and distribution.
Proposed text: In February 2011, Colker sold the marketing rights and trademarks for MYO-T12 to MYOS and entered into a three-year agreement to be the company's Chief Medical Officer and Executive vice-president. He resigned in 2012 to be a scientific advisor for the company.
Reasoning: This wraps up Colker's ownership, ending in his resignation as Chief Medical Officer and Executive vice-president.
Proposed text: Myostatin inhibitors are specifically banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA). In an August 12, 2012 interview with National Public Radio, Colker stated "when the myostatin inhibitors come along, they'll be abused. There's no question in my mind."
Reasoning: Pre-existing text.
PS Since there was no feedback per the latest additions regarding celebrity affiliations, I'm going to replace the appropriate info in Media appearances, of course leaving off the ridiculous "championships". News Team Assemble![talk?] 21:07, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
OK, thanks. I'll go through that line by line and get back to you ASAP. BTW, to what were you referring with respect to celebrity affiliations? I don't recall discussing that; there may be objections. Rhode Island Red (talk) 00:14, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Hey User:Rhode Island Red. Sorry for the lack of clarity about the celebrity affiliations. Here's what I'm thinking:

Original text: Colker appeared as a guest physician and trainer on the ABC reality TV program Shaq's Big Challenge. In 2008 Colker promoted the inaugural National Family Fitness Day. Colker appeared in the 2008 movie Bigger, Stronger, Faster* and narrated the 2010 documentary short film LUNCH, which investigated the causes and consequences of children growing up in a junk-food culture.
Reverted 65.246 text: Colker appeared as a guest physician and trainer on the ABC reality TV program Shaq's Big Challenge.
In 2008 Colker promoted the inaugural National Family Fitness Day. Colker appeared in the 2008 movie Bigger, Stronger, Faster*. and narrated the 2010 documentary short film LUNCH, which investigated the causes and consequences of children growing up in a junk-food culture. Colker has worked with high profile personalities including Olympic snowboarder Chris Klug, Andre Agassi, Quinton Jackson and Bradley Cooper. In 2017, he began working New York Knicks power forward, Kristaps Porziņģis as his personal physician and trainer. In an article discussing his work with Porzingis, Shaquille O'Neal credited Colker with helping him to win championships.
Proposed text: Colker appeared as a guest physician and trainer on the ABC reality TV program Shaq's Big Challenge. In 2008 Colker promoted the inaugural National Family Fitness Day. Colker appeared in the 2008 movie Bigger, Stronger, Faster* and narrated the 2010 documentary short film LUNCH, which investigated the causes and consequences of children growing up in a junk-food culture. Colker has worked with high profile personalities including Olympic snowboarder Chris Klug, Andre Agassi, Quinton Jackson and Bradley Cooper. In 2017, he began working New York Knicks power forward, Kristaps Porziņģis as his personal physician and trainer.

Also I'm not sure if Media appearances is the right name for the header. Maybe something more like Media affiliations? I'm not sold on the idea of flaunting "Celebrity" in the header so I will defer to your judgement. News Team Assemble![talk?] 16:04, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Can't offer an opinion without seeing inline references. Overall, the proposed text strikes me as overly promotional, and no definitely would not use the word celebrity anywhere. If we're talking about Colker providing legit medical services, then the sources would have to be approaching WP:MEDRS quality and would need specific details. We're not going to have a section built on nothing more than paper thin testimonials (i.e., "athlete x says Colker is his personal physician and helped him win a championship"). Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:25, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
Hey Rhode Island Red. Went ahead and sourced the proposed text and struck through all promotional language:
Proposed text (revised): Colker appeared as a guest physician and trainer on the ABC reality TV program Shaq's Big Challenge.[1]
In 2008 Colker promoted the inaugural National Family Fitness Day.[2] Colker appeared in the 2008 movie Bigger, Stronger, Faster.[3] and narrated the 2010 documentary short film LUNCH, which investigated the causes and consequences of children growing up in a junk-food culture.[4] Colker has worked with high profile public personalities including Olympic snowboarder Chris Klug,[5] Andre Agassi, Quinton Jackson and Bradley Cooper.[6] In 2017, he began working New York Knicks power forward, Kristaps Porziņģis[7] as his personal physician and trainer.[8]

References

  1. ^ Alipour, Sam. "Shaq battles fat -- and no, not his own". ESPN Sports. Retrieved December 1, 2011.
  2. ^ "Xbox 360 and Boys & Girls Clubs of America Team Up for First National Family Fitness Day". childrensaidsociety.org. Retrieved 2 August 2014.
  3. ^ "Bigger, Stronger, Faster". www.imdb.com/. IMDB. Retrieved 2 August 2014.
  4. ^ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1684908/
  5. ^ Ken Reed (August 5, 2016). "Despite Ugliness, Olympics Still Deliver Plenty Of Spirit and Joy". Huffpost.
  6. ^ Rachel Handler (August 10, 2016). "Unlocking The Secrets of a Celebrity Body With Bieber's Dietary Guru". MTV.
  7. ^ Marc Berman (November 19, 2017). "Inside the Experimental Summer That Left Porzingis a Superstar". New York Post.
  8. ^ Stefan Bondy (December 20, 2017). "Meet the muscle-bound doctor Kristaps Porzingis is counting on to keep him on the court". NY Daily News.
PS: Where WP:MEDRS comes in here is confusing to me. Can you explain how it applies throughout the proposed text? News Team Assemble![talk?] 12:02, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Man, you;re making this more difficult than it should be. To be clear, the only new text you're proposing is the last two sentences. The parts about the TV show and the movie are already in the article. So what you're really proposing is including some promo blurbs taken from tabloid newspapers about Colker's alleged clientele. I think not. Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:58, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Hey Rhode Island Red. Would you mind explaining how a tabloid source is unreliable? Does the issue lie with how the sources are being used or is there an inherent problem with Huffington Post, MTV News, New York Post and New York Daily News as sources? News Team Assemble![talk?] 12:02, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

I would have thought it was pretty obvious already. A discussion about medical treatment and doctor-patient relationships ideally requires a fairly serious tone and in-depth documentation in sources that either meet or approach WP:MEDRS (describing for instance what the medical treatment actually entailed). The antithesis of that is a tabloid news source where some celebrity says “shout out to Doc Colker for my 6-pack abs!”, or something similar, which is essentially what you have proposed including above (i.e., MTV and tabloid rags). The Huff Po article doesn’t describe any details whatsoever and only includes a claim from Colker himself that he’s Klug’s “personal physician”; worthless for all intents and purposes. The MTV article is mis-cited and doesn’t even mention Agassi or Jackson. The others are superficial in coverage and not particularly reliable in this context. Like I said, altogether this is trivia/gossip/resume padding that cheapens what is supposed to be an article about a physician. I’d say the boundary is getting blurry as to whether Colker operates as a physician at all or merely as an overblown fitness trainer.
BTW, you timing and approach are suggestive of paid editing or some other form of WP:COI. Please bear that in mind and act accordingly. Rhode Island Red (talk) 15:20, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for bringing the questionable sourcing to my attention. I used them from a separate revert and should have vetted more thoroughly. I agree the MTV source only discusses Bradley Cooper, so I'll comb through the others and get back to you.
Really appreciate the explanation of your position on WP:MEDRS in this case. Totally makes sense. If sources relating to MEDRS existed for Colker, would they not end up promoting him and his "medical treatment" of patients (read famous people) though? It seems to me that Colker is the sports world version of somebody like Dr. Oz (blegh) -- a celeb "doctor". Celebrity affiliations seem like the only aspect where he meets WP:GNG. Without this kind of information, then diminishing him to a one-paragraph stub that merely indicates he is a dietary supplement consultant and physician. And at that point why not nominate for deletion i.e. why would a dietary supplement pusher and overblown fitness trainer merit a vanity piece on Wikipedia. News Team Assemble![talk?] 05:58, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
It would seem fair to say that Colker has tried to create a niche and market himself as a minor "celeb doctor" (not very successfully) but WP need not assist that effort (see WP:PROMO). I would agree that his primary area of notability is as a consultant to the dietary supplement industry, and a rather sketchy one at that (i.e., controversial). His notability in that area is well established by multiple WP:RS so little to fear with regard to the article being whittled down to a stub. Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:18, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
Very professional stuff here.[3] I'm stunned. Seems more like a wanna-be gangsta than an MD. A crass supplement shill to be sure. Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:24, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Lol that video… sheesh. Speaking of myostatin and WP:RS, the MYO-X section I proposed above should clarify some of his sketchy ties to that industry. Good to post? Not sure if you had a sec to look through that. News Team Assemble![talk?] 12:16, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

I couldn't tell exactly what you are proposing to add or remove form the current text on MYO-X. Could you propose it again clearly shwoing the difference between versions? Rhode Island Red (talk) 14:35, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

I proposed this using the "x1, y1, z1" etc format as you asked, on February 28. For convenience, a visual aid of the paragraph (strike-thrus have been removed and reasoning can be seen in the link above):

In January 2015, Entertainment Tonight reported that entertainer Justin Bieber had credited Colker with recommending MYO-X, a dietary supplement that Bieber claimed to have used in preparation for a Calvin Klein underwear photo shoot.[1] Bieber was criticized for “…hyping Colker’s latest “miracle” supplement MYO-X, to his 59 million Twitter fans.”[2]
SEC documents filed by the manufacturer (MYOS Corp.; dba Atlas Therapeutics until May 2012), indicate that The product consists of a powder isolated from the yolk of fertilized chicken eggs and claims to contain follistatin and to increase muscle mass by inhibiting myostatin. It was developed by Colker in 2005 as a supplement formulation that was marketed initially under the trade name Folstaxan by Celldyne Biopharma LLC and, subsequently, under the trade name MYO-T12 by Atlas/MYOS.[3][4][5][6][7]
In February 2011, Colker sold the marketing rights and trademarks for MYO-T12 to MYOS for $1.15 million and entered into a three-year employment agreement to serve as the company’s Chief Medical Officer and Executive vice-president. He resigned in 2012 to be a scientific advisor for the company. in exchange for 300,000 shares of common stock.[4][5][8] Under the terms of licensing agreements with MYOS, MYO-T12 is distributed by Maximum Human Performance (MHP) under the brand name MYO-X, and by Cenegenics (NASDAQ:CELG) under the brand name Cenegenics Muscle Formula (Fortetropin).[4][9][10]
Myostatin inhibitors are specifically banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA).[11] In an August 12, 2012 interview with National Public Radio, Colker stated “when the myostatin inhibitors come along, they'll be abused. There's no question in my mind.”[12]

References

  1. ^ http://www.etonline.com/fashion/155940_justin_bieber_reveals_his_calvin_klein_workout/
  2. ^ http://www.theimproper.com/117405/justin-bieber-hypes-sketchy-diet-doctors-miracle-body-building-drug/
  3. ^ "MYOS Corp. Registration Statement". October 15, 2014. Retrieved September 17, 2015.
  4. ^ a b c "MYOS Corp. SEC Form 10-K". December 31, 2014. Retrieved September 17, 2015.
  5. ^ a b "MYOS Corp. Prospectus". November 9, 2012. Retrieved September 17, 2015.
  6. ^ "MYOS Corp SEC Form 10-K" (PDF). March 31, 2011. Retrieved September 17, 2015.
  7. ^ Colker, C (June 2009). "Effect on serum myostatin levels of high-grade handled fertile egg yolk powder". J Am Coll Nutr. 28 (3): Abstract #47.
  8. ^ "MYOS Corp. Intellectual Property Purchase Agreement". February 25, 2011. Retrieved September 17, 2015.
  9. ^ "Cenegenics Elite Muscle Formula". Archived from the original on October 12, 2015. Retrieved September 17, 2015. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  10. ^ "United States District Court for the District of New Jersey. Docket No.: 15-448 MYOS Corp. v. Maximum Human Performance, LLC". Feb 19, 2015. Retrieved September 17, 2015.
  11. ^ http://list.wada-ama.org/list/s4-hormone-and-metabolic-modulators/#myostatin%20inhibitors
  12. ^ http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2013/08/12/210487410/new-muscle-drugs-could-be-the-next-big-thing-in-sports-doping
-- News Team Assemble![talk?] 19:17, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
So no new content, just deletions? I don't see any reason why the attributions (SEC, Entertainment Tonight, etc.) and dollar amounts/terms of agreement with MYOS should be deleted. Same with respect to the names for the MYOS product. Don't really understand/agree with the rationale for the proposed changes. Rhode Island Red (talk) 22:22, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
Any content deleted (i.e. struck-thru) indicates original research or irrelevant tabloid attribution in the prose. If there are any non-primary sources that contain those dollar amounts, terms of agreement and/or MYOS product names, let's definitely discuss adding them. News Team Assemble![talk?] 04:43, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
“Entertainment Tonight reported” and “SEC documents filed by the manufacturer (MYOS Corp)” are not “original research or irrelevant tabloid attribution”. It’s just identifying the source that’s cited, which is proper style as per WP, as I recall. Rhode Island Red (talk) 20:44, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Lol… you and I are splitting hairs now. Those strike-thrus aside…

The other struck-thru prose and citations indicate original research, agree or disagree? News Team Assemble![talk?] 05:26, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
The latter. Rhode Island Red (talk) 14:55, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
Care to elaborate? News Team Assemble![talk?] 10:49, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
No, as you merely asked whether or not I agree, but I will anyway. Much or all of the underlined material is stated in the sources cited so it cannot possibly be WP:OR. If you want to make a case as to why you think something is OR, the onus is on you; not on me to proactively address it. Rhode Island Red (talk) 17:24, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Disagree because I'm seeing conclusions drawn from primary sources, and regardless they're being pieced together to imply conclusions not present in the original sources. Agree or disagree? News Team Assemble![talk?] 22:51, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

You asked if I thought all of the underlined material was WP:OR; I said no. If there is specific text that you maintain is WP:OR, you can make a detailed case, point by point. That would be more productive than vague polling and tail chasing. Rhode Island Red (talk) 13:26, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Detailed case for WP:OR, point 1:

Bolded phrases contain information pulled from (mostly) primary sources in an A + B, therefore C format.

In January 2015, Entertainment Tonight reported that entertainer Justin Bieber had credited Colker with recommending MYO-X, a dietary supplement that Bieber had allegedly used in preparation for a Calvin Klein underwear photo shoot.[39] Bieber was criticized for “…hyping Colker’s latest “miracle” supplement MYO-X, to his 59 million Twitter fans.[40]’’

Based on the bulleted sources above, please identify where this is clearly stated in the sources without using an A + B, therefore C format.

Point 2:

SEC documents filed by the manufacturer (MYOS Corp.; dba Atlas Therapeutics until May 2012), indicate that the product consists of a powder isolated from the yolk of fertilized chicken eggs. It was developed by Colker in 2005 as a supplement formulation that was marketed initially under the trade name Folstaxan by Celldyne Biopharma LLC and, subsequently, under the trade name MYO-T12 by Atlas/MYOS.[26][41][42][43][44] The product was implied to contain follistatin and to increase muscle mass by inhibiting myostatin.

Based on the bulleted sources above, please identify where this is clearly stated in the sources without using an A + B, therefore C format.

Point 3:

In February 2011, Colker sold the marketing rights and trademarks for MYO-T12 to MYOS for $1.15 million and entered into a three-year employment agreement to serve as the company’s Chief Medical Officer and Executive vice-president, resigning in 2012 to serve as a scientific advisor for the company in exchange for 300,000 shares of common stock.[41][42][45] Under the terms of licensing agreements with MYOS, MYO-T12 is distributed by Maximum Human Performance (MHP) under the brand name MYO-X, and by Cenegenics (NASDAQ:CELG) under the brand name Cenegenics Muscle Formula (Fortetropin).[41][46][47]

Based on the bulleted sources above, please identify where this is clearly stated in the sources without using an A + B, therefore C format.

Thanks in advance for your response to the above points. News Team Assemble![talk?] 19:38, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

As for #2 and #3, there is no WP:OR in either case. All of the facts described are confirmed in the sources cited. #1 could perhaps use a bit of a tweak. But, wow, what a long tedious road to get here. A colossal waste of WP resources IMO. The COI issue is just icing on the cake. Rhode Island Red (talk) 20:31, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
Then, we have a fundamental disagreement over what constitutes WP:OR, I’ve provided the detailed case point-by-point that you said would be necessary. As the disagreement persists, I’m seeking a third opinion. News Team Assemble![talk?] 13:04, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

That's fine. You seem to not realize that identifying and naming a source (e.g., "SEC documents filed by the manufacturer ..."; "Under the terms of licensing agreements with MYOS...") does not constitute WP:OR. You also seem to be failing to acknowledge that all the details are in fact included in the sources cited (did you even bother to check before declaring OR?). And you misstated what constitutes an improper synthesis. A lot of hairsplitting and Talk page white space wasted, and for what? What exactly is the change you wish to make to resolve the issue that doesn't seem to be an issue. You have certainly provided no justification for deleting material you bolded above, as the cited sources support all of it. Rhode Island Red (talk) 15:50, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Third opinion

Response to third opinion request:
This discussion is extremely too long to comfortably plow through. At any rate, if anything, I would remove the following text: ...simply because it isn't backed up by a source. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 18:24, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for weighing in. I'm pretty sure the follistatin/myostatin/muscle mass angle was supported by at least one of the sources cited. Did you check them all? I can go back and have a look if not. Rhode Island Red (talk) 23:09, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, Erpert for your insight! Will address shortly. News Team Assemble![talk?] 16:39, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Celebrity doctor

I noticed in the Career section a sentence referring to Colker as a "celebrity doctor", a good number of sources cited there too. Based on that, are there other worthwhile figures to mention in that section? I see Piven, Justin Bieber and Porzingas there. Not sure if it's worth including others. Thanks in advance! ​ PcPrincipal (talk) 16:13, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

I think you are interpreting "celebrity doctor" as meaning a doctor who treats celebrities. See celebrity doctor. Jytdog (talk) 17:23, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
Ah okay. I understand that distinction then. In regards to his exposure then I'm seeing like three documentaries he appeared in on his IMDb, and he's mentioned on Shaq's Big Challenge. Would a filmography table or something similar work? That's what I see on Drew Pinsky's and Phil McGraw's page. Or should we just merge that into the Career section as well? A table seems more directly informational if "Media appearances" or the like carries too many promotional notions. Will defer to your judgement. Thanks as always. PcPrincipal (talk) 00:20, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
Gonna go ahead and add a table, would love to hear your thoughts. PcPrincipal (talk) 21:20, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

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