Talk:Caribbean Community/Archive 1

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References and External Links

Why are these two sections so full of crap? this needs to be cleaned up. If some of these are the true source of the editors knowledge, then I feel sorry for this entry.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Budyhead (talk • contribs)

So Budyhead, what exactly is "crap" in the References and External Links? The online newspaper articles? The CARICOM and CARICOM-related websites? Or the CIA Factbook? If there are references and external links that have nothing to do with the organization then they rightly might be termed as useless, but if they state verifiable facts (such as newspapers commonly do) then they are useful.72.27.88.118 21:34, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Proposal of a Merger with CSME

All,

Since CARICOM is no longer the super set, and in reality the CSME will replace it. But I am proposing the two pages be merged under a "CARICOM Single Market and Economy" heading with the body detailing the difference between the two.

any opinions on this?

Why did you (Budyhead, I assume) put this at the top of the page? I though all new sections came at the bottom of the page. As for the proposal, I oppose it since in all seriousness CARICOM is still the super set and the CSME is not replacing CARICOM, any more than the EMU and Eurozone have replaced the EU. What would be the point in merging the two pages and then detailing the differences between the two, if the CSME was really replacing CARICOM (which it isn't)? Even after the CSME is fully implemented in the 12 states that have signed on, the Bahamas, Haiti and (for now) Montserrat will still be full members of Caricom.208.131.189.213 19:56, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Opinions on name Change for "Caribbean Community and Common Market"

Hi,

I've been noticing the title of this article for sometime. As you may, or may not be aware, as recent as February 16-17, the heads of government met in Paramaribo, Suriname for the "2005 Sixteenth Inter-Sessional Meeting of The Conference of Heads of Government of the Caribbean Community."

According to the earliest news reports coming from that event it's been re-stated that CARICOM will no longer use the term "Common Market" As seen stated in this and other regional news sites http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/2005/02/21/pushes.shtml. According to some of the media houses the term "Common Market" has been simply replaced by the term "Caribbean (CARICOM) Single Market and Economy (CSME)".

Given the situation of the name change by the organization, I'm wondering if anyone here may have an opinion to an idea I have of changing the name of this article-title from "Caribbean Community and Common Market" perhaps to either just "CARICOM" or perhaps "Caribbean_Community"?

As can be noted on the CARICOM offical site, the organization no longer uses the term "Common Market" anywhere except in a few of their historical articles of that period.

What do folks here think? CaribDigita 00:35, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I see no reason not to change the name. The old name should be kept as a redirect and the current name used by the organization (CARICOM Single Market and Economy) should be used. Peregrine981 05:14, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)
I support the idea of a name change - Caribbean Community (with CARICOM and Caricom as redirects) would probably be the best fit with naming policy. Guettarda 23:43, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I appologize folks. I thought when you click on "Move", that Wikipedia sent out a note to verious forums on Wikipedia where a wider vote is allowed to be taken on if others support the move.
If I had known it was instant, I would have waited about two-three month's time for other points of view- on the name change issue. I wasn't *really* in any rush to change the name on this. I didn't know as soon as you click 'Move', the process is done in 10 seconds. Isn't it supposed to have some sort of "voting" feature in it? CaribDigita 01:02, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You only need to request a move if there is a page (something more than a Redirect) at the destination. Generally you should get consensus at the page, especially if there are other editors, which you did. The way you did it was fine. Requested Moves isn't supposed to be a voting page, but often becomes one - there is a vote going on there to change the way it works (check the Talk page on the RM page if you are interested). Nothing amiss with what you did Guettarda 14:00, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What's with the removal of the CARICOM political union template?

What's with the removal of the template for the CARICOM political/economic union? Removing the CARICOM union is like removing the EU one template from like one of the Europe countries.

If anything we should dump the West Indies one, "West Indies" who even still calls the region that anymore, other then people from outside?

CARICOM is much more importaint to the region then the West Indies banner. CARICOM *governs* the free movement of people, the proposed currency union, the Caribbean Court of Justice, the Caribbean (CARICOM) Single Market and economy, the (proposed) Single Caribbean Stock Exchange between Jamaica, Barbados and Trinidad and Tobago, the single Caribbean passport, the regional civil society charter, and the list goes on...

The CARICOM template are *the* islands, and when it makes a rulings at the Caribbean Court of Justice it can even govern island above the government on that island... The Commonwealth one I guess can go, that's not all that importaint either. The CARICOM one needs to stay I don't know any other template that would be more #1 then the CARICOM one. CaribDigita 04:30, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

One accepted measure of whether something is important enough for a template is if the fact is mentioned in the opening section. For the CARICOM countries this does not seem to be the case. - SimonP 17:39, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
This is the year when most parts of Caribbean Community are to be activated. Including the Caribbean (CARICOM) Single Market and Economy (CSME). The date for the commencment continues to change but at this point, all heads have signed an agreement that they will begin it this year (2005). I believe the only one that will have an issue is Haiti, who is temporarilly suspended from councils of CARICOM, until that member state holds democratic elections to replace a multinationally installed interim-government brought to power by violent coup. CARICOM is currently listed under "Economy" / "Politics" in all of the full memeber's profiles, but because it's transforming from an economic grouping to one that is more 'hands-on' "political" in the roles of civil-society in each of the member states, that is one thing which needs to be standardised, defined, and changed down the road once a CARICOM agreement is signed and released on the exact workings of that aspect of the union.
The Caribbean Court of Justice a unit developed by CARICOM can overturn court rulings in member states and can fine governments until they come into compliance with a ruling. One of the easilest cases the CCJ is thought to have to rule on is the issue of Gay Marriages. If even one state in CARICOM makes an appeal to the CCJ and it rules that Gay Marriages must be allowed, all other states in CARICOM will have to follow that ruling. CaribDigita 17:36, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have no objection to having both the CARICOM template and the geography one. Templates are useful and I take your word for that a significant number of users will wish to browse through the CARICOM nations. However, three or more templates quickly becomes both ugly and ungainly and every extra template significantly reduces the ease of navigation that templates are meant to service. Thus I believe that having the CARICOM template means we should not also have the one for the OAS, Commonwealth, Francophonie, Non-Aligned Movement, etc. on these pages. - SimonP 18:41, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

Full member date-of-entry template

I re-created a member template like what's on the EU's wiki-article.

Year Country
1973 Barbados, Guyana, Jamaica, Trinidad and Tobago (founding members)
1974 Antigua and Barbuda, Belize, Dominica, Grenada, Montserrat, Saint Lucia, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
1983 the Bahamas
1995 Suriname
2002 Haiti

I'm looking for feedback do other's think it is worth adding to the article? or is it a bit much and leave it out? CaribDigita 00:03, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Looks good, but is redundant with the existing members list, with the exception that the existing list does not have years for all countries. Perhaps just add the years to the existing list?--Niku 01:38, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree, looks good, but perhaps we should just add the dates to the current list (since the current list also has the flags)....unless you can add the flags to the template.

Just some thing to keep in mind.

  • CARICOM cannot fully encompass 100% full political union because the Head of Government for Jamaica stated Jamaica would probably not be interested in political union at this point. Instead Jamaica is of the view that CARICOM should remain a collection of sovereign states. On the other hand the Head of Government for Trinidad and Tobago believes CARICOM should be underpinned by political union and infact has discussed with Barbados and Guyana in 1995 a plan of political union with Trinidad and Tobago. And then in 2000-2003 a plan for poltical union instead with Saint Vincent and the Grenadines and Grenada. And then later the plan was widened to possibly include Barbados whos Head of Government was also in favour of poltical union. Currently any idea of CARICOM political union is years away.
  • At this site you can find the official institutions of the CARICOM organisation. CaribDigita 11:00, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Does anybody know where to find the details of the members nstruments by which they ratify the Treaty establishing the Caribbean community? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.73.150.20 (talk) 17:00, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

order of listings

any objections to rearranging the members in each section alphabetically instead of according to the current somewhat slipshod combination of alphabetically in places and date of ascension in others? Tomertalk 04:39, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

well, that shouldn't be a problem, for the Membership section all that needs to be done is rearrange the Associate Members alphabetically.208.131.189.213 19:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

The CARICOM Flag/Standard

Okay, recently Budyhead changed the flag that used to be displayed (the one I recently reinserted). The flag that Budyhead put in is not the official flag. Its a design based off the description of the actual flag/standard. As I pointed out in the edit summary, the version of the flag I reverted to is the one found on CARICOM's own website. Seeing as how it is CARICOM's flag, it would stand to reason that CARICOM would display their official flag (the real flag now, not variants) on their own website (unless the site administrators are truly incompetent). Nightstallion, reverted my change (which itself was a reversion to the official flag) for no apparent reason, although maybe he figured that anyone without a sign-in name is a vandal and hence their contributions = vandalism and should be reverted. So, nightstallion (and budyhead) please take a look at the flag/standard displayed at this website http://www.caricom.org/jsp/community/caricom_standard.jsp?menu=community before dragging me over coals and reflexively reverting changes. 72.27.1.194 19:39, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

We still need to use the SVG flag. Tell someone at commons:Commons:WikiProject Flags or the image's talk page at the commons that the flag needs to be changed, but we should still use the SVG version over PNG or others. —Nightstallion (?) Seen this already? 07:27, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

making a professional article

Budyhead made a few edits to the article in an effort to make it more professional. Although these edits were in good faith, some of them were inadequate (or incorrect in one case):

  • CARICOM was originally called the "Caribbean Community and Common Market". As he rightly pointed out, it is now the Caribbean Community, but removing the original name entirely is unencyclopedic - people reading about it for the first time will be a bit confused if they come across the former offical name in some publication (and probably wonder if Wikipedia is missing some info - which it would be). And the point of an encyclopedia is to provide info, not to confound.
  • The label on the map showing the CSM was originally correct. The single economy part of the process has not yet come into effect, hence it is incorrect to refer to the members as being part of something that has yet to come into being. If we wanted to get technical, it could be stated that Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. If tomorrow, most of the member states decided not to bother (and not care about the legal issues) then Wikipedia would have incorrectly been referring to these countries as being members of something that never existed.
  • The OECS-CARICOM was removed, for the stated reason that it was better suited to the OECS article....as to why a map showing both CARICOM and OECS states is better suited to an article on one organization or the other I can't say. I can say though that the map is actual best suited to a Caribbean integration article, since such an article would probably deal with both CARICOM and the OECS as well as other past and current integration efforts such as the East(ern) Caribbean Common Market, the West Indies Federation and the Association of Caribbean States. In such an article, of course the map would be fine since both organizations would be discussed, or at least referred to. I won't argue for its inclusion since as Budyhead said, it is not fully suited for this article.
  • The map under membership was removed as being redundant and unprofessional, without addressing the issue of whether people with colour vision problems can actually distinguish the very close shades of blue used in the map in the infobox. Not to mention the fact that it is hard to tell what colour some countries are because many of the states are small (and hence their shade of blue tends to get lost by the surrounding black). Also, it seems a bit strange that the European Union and African Union articles can each have two maps showing membership but this article can't. Strictly speaking the first map showing EU membership is a locator map (which is what the first map of the CARICOM article in the infobox should be, but isn't) and the second map is intended to show full member states and other countries associated with the EU but not members (i.e. candidate and acceding states - since the EU doesn't have associate members). If anything, Budyhead should leave a message with the editor of the locator map (or just edit the map himself) stating that the locator map should perform its function in locating CARICOM (full members only), while the membership maps (e.g. the one in membership and the CSM one) show the membership of the organization (full member, associate member and observer) and of the Single Market (CSM member or not) respectively.

And if Budyhead wants the article to be really professional then why not do something about the (currently incorrect) flag? Just look at the CARICOM website and you'll see that this flag is very much incorrect. What's really needed is an SVG version of the correct flag as shown on CARICOM's website.72.27.175.32 04:01, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Another anon, has brought up the issue of the membership map being an exact replica of the (very poor quality) infobox map (when actually the reverse is true since the infobox map was made as a copy of the membership map - just look at their histories). I already noted that they were the same in what they showed, but pointed out that they were different in how they showed it (I bet that the anon cannot adequately point out the associates in the blue infobox map). However, since people seem to prefer having one map (no matter what the quality) then perhaps the membership map should replace the infobox map. The same anon has said the Common Market aspect of the name was merely a nickname. I refer that anon to [1] where they will see that the Common Market was a separate legal entity (which has now been superceded by the CSM(E) and to which the Bahamas did not accede (and still has not)). The anon called it a nickname and cited the text of the original treaty as a proof, without realizing that because the Community and Common Market were two separate entities, they had to be dealt with separately (with an Agreement for the Common Market attached to the original treaty) but were referred to jointly since they were interconnected. In the past prospective members could theoretically sign onto the broad treaty and not the agreement (not so now with the revised treaty), but the agreement is still contained within the treaty and so the organization was the Caribbean Community and Common Market. I won't even begin to get into the distinction between the CSM (which is what currently exists) and the CSME (which is to come into effect in 2008). Please read the references, I'm sure there are references there referring only to the CSM.72.27.29.152 03:23, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The part about Puerto Rico joining is unlikely.

CARICOM has a Free Trade Agreement with Cuba... The USA already limits how many ties CARICOM or the OECS can have with Puerto Rico because of the Independent Caribbean's ties with Cuba. CaribDigita 03:38, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Domincan Republic

I would like to point out that there is an inconsistency between the list of membership/observer countries and the map. The map shows the Dominican Republic as a full member, but the list shows that it is just an observer nation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.212.123.19 (talk) 20:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I just looked the map and it has the Dominican Republic as an observer nation. Maybe you're confusing it with Haiti whom share the Hispaniola island with the DR and are a full member. Rasadam (talk) 00:37, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I reverted the part about Spanish because it is not actually an official language

See this source for example.

CARICOM's main language should currently be Haitian Creole since they have the most people of the entire community but- CARICOM the organisation maintains that the language will remain English as it is now.

CaribDigita (talk) 06:41, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Article: questions on if CARICOM is effectively dead?

BBC Caribbean article.

CaribDigita (talk) 20:01, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Caribbean islands are the best in the entire universe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.170.34.13 (talk) 01:25, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Infobox

For some reason the text in the "Membership" section of the infobox seems to overlap itself. I have no idea how to fix this, could someone with more skill please take a look at it? --Khajidha (talk) 18:24, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Just coming back to mention that this has been taken care of. --Khajidha (talk) 08:31, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
I was able to fix the problem by changing some things about the Geopolitical template.--Dannyboybs18 (talk) 06:57, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
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