Talk:Cantref

Wales Mid‑importance

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Middle Ages Low‑importance

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Duplicates[edit]

The cantrefi of Cemais and Rhos are listed under both Gwynedd and Deheubarth. Is this right? Rhos might certainly be, since it means "moor" and is perfectly plausible as a name for large swathes of Wales. But what about Cemais? A search for Cemais reveals it as a Norman lordship around Haverfordwest (hence Deheubarth); whereas Cemaes is indeed in Gwynedd. Is there a mix-up here? Edricson 08:07, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rhwng Gwy a Hafren[edit]

Does this list (from its format) not beg the question of the early status of the area between the Severn and the Wye? Furthermore, why are no cantrefi listed in southeast Wales? Peterkingiron (talk) 22:51, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I repeat this question. Peterkingiron (talk) 22:24, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

When I came across the article, there were no Morgannwg section, so I added it. That's Wikipedia, if there is missing information you should add it. FruitMonkey (talk) 22:29, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I was really referring to my first question, which relates to cantrefi in the modern county of Powys, but not medieval Powys. I was hoping some one else would sort this out, rahter than my doing so, as my knowledge of medieval Wales is imperfect and I might get it wrong. Peterkingiron (talk) 23:07, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Then someone will eventually fix it. My knowledge on Medieval Wales comes from books. All my information comes from books. Be bold. I have a bigger concern that the category for the cantrefi is classed as cantrefs, which must surely be a mistake. FruitMonkey (talk) 07:17, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If Cantref is treated as an English word of Welsh origin, the plural should be cantrefs. This is the same issue as with Latin nouns ending in -um: should the plural be -a (as Latin) or -ums as standard English. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:27, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Amended, as I had in mind, but it is still incomplete. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:41, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Importance[edit]

I have placed this article as mid importance as although the cantrefi themselves are of high importance, the explanation of the term and listing of, should be mid. Will welcome any objections. FruitMonkey (talk) 11:05, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Map[edit]

Nice map, but surely south Flintshire was not part of Powys Fadog. However the map in that article shows the same defect. The article on Maelor claims it was a cantref. That on Cynllaith only claims it was a commote, but I wonder if this was not the other cantref of Powys Fadog. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:05, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Peterkingiron, thanks for the feedback. I tried hard to follow Lloyd's written descriptions of the cantrefi and cymydau; I don't doubt that there may be errors of my own making, and I expect that I'll need to revise and update the map, which I'm willing to do.

By all accounts, Lloyd's telling is still the "gold standard" (and I like that he cites his sources). He also describes the boundaries (and if you click on the map to enlarge, they follow common sense ... boundaries are along rivers and mountain ridge lines as a rule, as one might expect).

Lloyd does list Maelor as a cwmwd (page 244, Hist. of Wales, Vol I), along with Cynllaith, Nanheudwy, Iâl, Yr Hob, and Ystrad Alun ... I think that Maelor is one of the divisions that was both a cwmwd and a cantref at different times in history.

Lloyd gives the cymydau of Tegeingl as Prestatyn, Rhuddlan, and Coleshill. Northeast of Ystrad Alun and southeast of Coleshill, along the southern bank of the Dee (ie, S. Flintshire) is perhaps a bit ambiguous but doesn't look like it belongs with Coleshill (though perhaps it does).

Further feedback and criticism welcome; I'd like to have a map that's useful in understanding history (and it needs to be accurate to do that). Am presently working on a map of the cymydau, using Lloyd as the source. Regards, Notuncurious (talk) 16:50, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Map[edit]

Both this map and the map of commotes used on several other pages include a number of bizarre errors: there's no such place as "Penilyn" (it's "Penllyn"); similarly names like "Deuddwy" (Deuddwr?) and "Cefeliog" (should be "Cyfeliog"). Svejk74 (talk) 16:23, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, thanks for spotting the "bizarre" typos :) I've fixed Penllyn on the Cantref map. But on the commotes map Deuddwr is spelled correctly (in both places) and all my sources show Cyfeiliog not Cyfeliog (I have changed it to the former). I am not the author of the other cantref and commotes maps knocking around. XrysD ^TALK 18:23, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

End of function[edit]

When did cantrefi stop having an administrative function; is there a precise date or statute? I think the article should have this information. Tony Holkham (Talk) 14:22, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]