Talk:Brian Jones/Archive 1
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Initial text
This article could do with a bit of an NPOVing and really sorely needs references for all this stuff. (No, that's not a {{sofixit}}) - David Gerard 20:52, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I have written the bulk of this article, yet it seems someone tried to edit it while not maintaining NPOV. Statements like "Jones was unpleasent and difficult to get along with", "Jones never contributed to Ruby Tuesday" and "Richards plays all the slide guitars on Beggars' Banquet" are blatantly untrue and certainly not NPOV. I instead edited it again to make it NPOV, adding the two disagreeing sides to each controversy over Jones and settling the matter where I have definitive proof (since I have records of studio logs and biographies to back up my claims).
Please don't mess with the article unless you are going to use a NPOV. It read almost like Jagger and Richards wrote the damn thing before I changed it. 70.176.186.10
I've made some minor grammatical changes as well as some limited editing of wording and syntax to improve clarity and coherence. Cheers, Laszlo Panaflex 00:10, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
Great research on Brian Jones but I just have some questions regarding the studio logs for Beggars Banquet: 1)how were they obtained and are they cross checked for accuracy and 2) do they indeed confirm the slide guitar contributions for the album on the songs 'No Expectations', 'Jigsaw Puzzle' and also 'Salt of the Earth'. It has also been suggested that Ry Cooder ended up doing the slide to 'No Expectations'. In the accompanying article on Beggars Banquet Ry is credited with playing on 'Prodigal Son'. Could this be a confusion? Many times Brian Jones is said to have hardly contributed to Beggars Banquet. Would love to have clarified. Thanks, Robert Strange.
Check out this site. http://www.keno.org/Songlistnlyrics.htm
The author claims to have retrieved all the information on Stones songs from studio logs, and through my checking of random books about the Stones, I can personally verify that many of them are indeed correct (see Bill Wyman's book 'Rolling With The Stones' for some info on who played what on a given track, also taken from studio logs). It lists Jones as playing the "Acoustic Slide Guitar" on No Expectations & Jig-Saw Puzzle, while Keith played the slide on Salt Of The Earth.
I'm re-editing the page once more, although I wrote most of it and tried to keep it as NPOV as possible, somebody keeps editorializing with things like "Unfortunately, A Degree Of Murder was a 1960s drug-induced haze of music" and the like. This doesn't belong on Wikipedia - put in a link to a review of the soundtrack if you want to get the point across.
Did he play bass on any Stones tracks?
Just trying to answer a trivia question here: Are there any Stones tracks on which Brian played bass? (If yes, this means that Charlie Watts is the only Stone never to have played bass on a Stones song.) I'm separated from my record collection at the moment... ProhibitOnions 14:54, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Place of death
Cotchford Farm, where Brian Jones died, is in Hartfield, Sussex, not in Essex, as the article previously stated. See headstone.
Untitled
"Jagger and Richards grew increasingly hostile towards Jones, and Jones became alienated from the rest of the group. By many accounts Jones was often a warm, friendly and outgoing person, yet these same people - including Bill Wyman - commented that Jones could often be an extremely difficult and mean person to get along with. Tensions grew, partly due to Jones's inebriated states. Other observers, again including Bill Wyman, find some fault with Jagger and Richards, claiming they were deliberately trying to push Brian out of the group. However, Jones maintained close relationships with many others outside of the Stones camp, including Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Jimi Hendrix, George Harrison and Steve Marriott."
It seems to give only nominal mention to Jones' drugs and seems to be attempting to paint Jagger and Richards as bad guys out to push him out of the group. Maybe this is the case, maybe it isn't but the aforementioned quote clearly has NPOV issues as does this statement that "Though The Stones then opened with a Johnny Winter song that was one of Brian's favorites, "I'm Yours And I'm Hers", many would say that their concert that day was the worst that they have ever given."
Who the hell is "many" any way. There are absolutely zero inline citations. There certainly are some references listed, but if anything's been used from them there's no indication in the article's text. For claims that are, judging from the comments below, contentious, more citation should be there to insure that the article "is factually accurate and verifiable."
Also, the second to last quote (a recent edit) I mentioned here has yet to be contested (though it is likely that it will be and when it does, it will probably cause article instability.
I've never reviewed one of these before but looking at this one, there are clearly some issues here that need to be addressed on the talk page to get to consensus. Good luck with that. Until then...
Also guys, sign your comments using four ~'s, like so
Jagger and Richards grew increasingly hostile towards Jones, and Jones became alienated from the rest of the group. By many accounts Jones was often a warm, friendly and outgoing person, yet these same people - including Bill Wyman - commented that Jones could often be an extremely difficult and mean person to get along with. Tensions grew, partly due to Jones's inebriated states. Other observers, again including Bill Wyman, find some fault with Jagger and Richards, claiming they were deliberately trying to push Brian out of the group. However, Jones maintained close relationships with many others outside of the Stones camp, including Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Jimi Hendrix, George Harrison, Steve Winwood and Steve Marriott."
It seems to give only nominal mention to Jones' drugs and seems to be attempting to paint Jagger and Richards as bad guys out to push him out of the group. Maybe this is the case, maybe it isn't but the aforementioned quote clearly has NPOV issues as does this statement that "Though The Stones then opened with a Johnny Winter song that was one of Brian's favorites, "I'm Yours And I'm Hers", many would say that their concert that day was the worst that they have ever given."
Who the hell is "many" any way. There are absolutely zero inline citations. There certainly are some references listed, but if anything's been used from them there's no indication in the article's text. For claims that are, judging from the comments below, contentious, more citation should be there to insure that the article "is factually accurate and verifiable."
Also, the second to last quote (a recent edit) I mentioned here has yet to be contested (though it is likely that it will be and when it does, it will probably cause article instability.
I've never reviewed one of these before but looking at this one, there are clearly some issues here that need to be addressed on the talk page to get to consensus. Good luck with that. Until then...
Also guys, sign your comments using four ~'s, like so
TonyJoe 02:22, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
No matter what Keith Richards says: the sitar played by Jones is a tamboura. It is much like a sitar, but it has no drone strings and no frets, so you can not play a melody with it. And that's exactly what you hear: drones at the end of every chorus and at the fade out. Check the rare single version on "The Single Collections", you hear the tambouri much better here. The shehani is played by Dave Mason:
Yes there is a tamboura at the beginning (as a matter of fact) of every chorus. There is also sitar in the song; around the end of the chorus (twice: as Jagger is saying 'man' and after he says 'no') you hear a very buzzy riff. You said yourself that a tamboura cannot provide melody, only drone. The difference between the striking of the tamboura and the riff at the end of the chorus is definitely there. Another way would be to compare the riff to the tamboura in Donovan's Hurdy Gurdy Man. The shehani info provided nothing for your overall argument. To make one more point, a trained musician can make a melody out of a tamboura. Watch the movie DiG! and observe Anton Newcombe strum the tamboura using a makeshift slide out of a large bottle and listen.
It was a very strange time in France. But not only in France but also in America, because of the Vietnam War and these endless disruptions.... I wrote a lot of the melody and all the words, and Keith and I sat around and made this wonderful track, with Dave Mason playing the shehani on it live. It's a kind of Indian reed instrument a bit like a primitive clarinet. It comes in at the end of the tune. It has a very wailing, strange sound.
- Mick Jagger, 1995
About the slide guitar of Jigsaw Puzzle: To my ears it is signature Keith. The only support that I have for this, is the statements by Bill Wyman, Jimmy Miller and Mick Jagger that Brian only played harmonica, some "keyboard" and acoustic guitar on the album, but clearly no electric guitar. Also, there's about 30 takes of outtakes from the March 1968 session, and Keith is experimenting with the slide melody that shows up on the final released version. And again, it sound way too freaky to be Brian. Brian was a slide master, and I just don't see him playing such a rough slide. Someone who'se not a great slide player would play something like this: great but freaky. But nobody has proof written in stone. Also, it certainly is NOT a lap steel slide. You can hear the slide touching the strings when you listen through headphones, so it simply can't be a lap steel. Last, the whining sound is a Moog synthesizer (you can clearly hear that), and Wyman has stated various times that he was the one "playing" it. The notes are way too long to be from a recorder, you simply would choke halfway.
The slide in Stray Cat Blues: there is NO slide. Listen with good headphones, turn the volume to ten: There is no slide. So, Keith doesn't play it, Brian doesn't.
Keno's site is an amateuristic website made by a non-musician. The website is poised with mistakes. Much, much better sites are http://www.nzentgraf.de and http://www.timeisonourside.com.
By the way, I am not a Keith Richards fan, I am a Stones fan since 1983.
>>>>
Stop deleting the section I've added about Brian Jones' rejuvenation at Cotchford Farm. I've supported all that with clearcut evidence: quotes from Keith Richards, Jimmy Miller and Alexis Korner, and more will be on the way.
>>>
It's deleted since it is absolute bullshit, taken from dubious sources. If you don't believe statements by Miller and Korner, just check out the last known pictures of Brian from April 1969: bloated, drugged out, deep eyes.
>>> And stop deleting the information about Trevor Hobley! Go check out his fanclub and contact that man - his investigation is on the verge of a colossal breakthrough. >>>
His investigation is horrible, and nothing more than mere rubbish by some psychotic anoraks. Keep it of this board as it is not factual.
(Heteren 15:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC))
Hi all,
I am wondering about the electric slide guitar credit for 'Jigsaw Puzzle'. There appears to be a very divided opinion about whether it was Keith or Brian who ended up playing this part. To my ear it sounds very much in Brian's style, sound and choice of notes. Others swear it is indeed Keith who plays this part. What I would love is for someone who really knows, not just someone with wishfull thinking or an axe to grind, to present whatever evidence there is to support their opinion. 'Studio logs' have been reputed to exist for this session and if so could someone please post them somewhere on the web with a link so I can see for myself. I for one think the 'studio logs' story is bullsh*t. Secondly, many fan sites which list track credits are themselves only using guess work or repeating inaccuracies found at other sites. A Jigsaw Puzzle indeed - in good faith, Rob Strange, 15 Feb 2006
Why don't you Keith Richards and Stones fans piss off?
Go worship Richards on your own boards.
Heaven forbid that Brian Jones fans are editing information about Brian Jones. Oh no, only Keith Richards fans and Stones fans can edit information about Brian Jones, not actual Brian Jones fans.
Everything we're adding in here is supported by the facts: quotes, research and statements by people who were there with Jones in the 1960s.
Try reading some books.
Why don't you just accept that fact that Jones played a pivotal role in the Stones throughout the 1960s?
Why can't you just accept the fact that Jones was off drugs by 1968 and trying to get his life together?
Why don't you accept the fact that Jones was getting a new band together and writing songs - this is supported by Keith Richards, Jimmy Miller and Alexis Korner.
I am not responsible for the above text. That's someone named "CDB1", who chose to delete the entire discussion, and refused to leave his signature (not to mention reporting some inaccurate information).
So to whom it may concern...I do not support CDB1, whomever this person is. I do not frequent any Brian Jones fan clubs or discussion boards. I do not care one whit about the reputation of this man, I am only here to keep the article NPOV and put in as much verifiable information as possible.
There is an edit war going on between the hardcore Brian Jones fans and the hardcore Stones fans - both camps have inserted biased and unsupported information into this article. I have made way too many edits to this page, and while some of my fellow editors have corrected mistakes and help out, this edit war is ridiculous.
How about we question unverified sections and quotes on the discussion board, BEFORE we start butchering this thing? I have spent quite a bit of time writing most of the article from scratch, and really don't feel like having to re-edit it over and over when either a Jones or Richards fan messes with the article (especially since most of it, as far as I know, is pretty accurate). At the same time, if someone wishes to challenge something I put in, please bring it up here first. Who knows, maybe some of the information could be re-worded, even.
But let's discuss these things first, because nobody likes an edit war. Agreed?
ChildOfTheMoon83 20:14, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
By the by, I couldn't help but notice that a shamelessly pro-Jones editor has butchered the page yet again, putting in pictures without copyright status and some dubious information.
ChildOfTheMoon83 20:20, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Cotchford Farm
Hey Child of the Moon:
Stop deleting the section I've added about Brian Jones' rejuvenation at Cotchford Farm. I've supported all that with clearcut evidence: quotes from Keith Richards, Jimmy Miller and Alexis Korner, and more will be on the way.
Dubious information? Dubious information my ass.
And stop deleting the information about Trevor Hobley! Go check out his fanclub and contact that man - his investigation is on the verge of a colossal breakthrough.
Everyone needs to go talk to Keno, who knows MORE about the Rolling Stones than any of us and he is the source of a lot of this information.
Unlike a lot of Stones fans, Keno doesn't trash the memory of Brian Jones and is a source of valuable information.
Oh and Child of the Moon - as Jones fans, we DO care about the repuation of this man - a man's who name has been dragged through the mud and spat on.
Picture
What happened to the picture?
nevermind. -5/24/06 5:34pm
Failed GA 2
Unfortunately, this article failed for "Good Article" status.
Some of it was my doing, so I fixed my own mistakes and cleaned up the article (most of which I wrote to begin with) immensely.
However, I couldn't help but notice that a lot of it was NPOV issues, and NOT because of something I wrote.
Part of the problem is the shameless pro-Jones camp, devoted to putting only favorable information about this man in here. Supposedly he wrote all their big hits. Oh, and they seem to have deleted that part I put in about him beating up his girlfriend Anita Pallenberg (which he did, several times). And the section on "Ruby Tuesday" I cleaned up.
However, there's the other camp to deal with, too. The worst Stones concert ever was the one in his memory? Please. I have a copy of the performance. It's way better than what they did at the Superbowl this year. Also Jones not being able to write anything, I deleted. It's clear he wrote a couple of songs, the Rice Krispies commercial and "Sure I Do" at the very least. What's not clear is how many songs he wrote, or how much he contributed to 3 or 4 more popular Stones songs.
I like Brian Jones. I also like Mick Jagger and Keith Richards. I have tried, and will continue to try, to keep this as NPOV as possible. I even incorporated the viewpoints of everyone. I want the reader to make their own decisions. That's really what Wikipedia is about, isn't it?
So please, stop these ridiculous edits - they are turning an otherwise good article into fan-based hysterics. If there's something here that you feel needs changing, please discuss it here first. I want this to achieve "Good article" status and if people go mucking around with the article, putting in fake "information" and unsupported claims, then I'll just have to delete it.
Whoops, forgot to sign. The above text was me, yesterday. ChildOfTheMoon83 17:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Failed by me also. Lots of opinion masquerading as fact here. Given the controversy surrounding Brian Jones and the Stones, inline citations are essential I feel. --kingboyk 12:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC) (a Cheltonian)
- I'm a completely uninterested party: I'd also have failed the GA nom for three reasons: emotional text (a.k.a. non-NPOV), it needs inline cites over just a bunch of refs (no context), and I'd like a few more pictures (although I'm pretty open for convincing otherwise). dewet|✉ 12:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Changes
An anonymous user posted the following on the entry:
"This entry is always being changed by somebody. This doesn't show much respect."
This person's IP is 84.197.13.36.
No, it doesn't show much respect, and you proved your own point by vandalizing the article. I did just edit it, yes, to add some quotes and badly-needed citations and make a couple of minor corrections. Given that I own two comprehensive books which were written by the Stones themselves (ie, the rest of the band who was there), and one of the complaints was that there aren't enough citations, I think it's safe to say that my actions improved the article.
Do you have any specific problems with my recent change? If I made a mistake or something please let me know, I try very hard to proofread and preview the article before I change it. I would like to hear any suggestions you might have. But it's not going to become a better article just by leaving it alone, and your actions are not constructive. ChildOfTheMoon83 19:43, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Finally, a good article about Jones
Congrats to whomever rewrote large portions of the Brian Jones article on June 2, 2006. I feel this article is very accurate, open and fair. The article now should serve both camps of Jones's fans. (Heteren 12:52, 12 June 2006 (UTC))
That was me. Good to see that somebody appreciates what I'm doing. 70.162.99.43 00:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Damn, I keep forgetting to sign in. The last comment after Heteren's was mine. ChildOfTheMoon83 00:13, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Good Article nomination has failed
The Good article nomination for Brian Jones/Archive 1 has failed, for the following reason(s):
Hi. I wonder about the articles POV with statements like "(The same corrupt officers who harassed Jones would go on to harass Beatle John Lennon in 1969.)" "Jones was visited by Mick Jagger, Keith Richards and Charlie Watts and was told the group he formed would continue without him." In addition to this, the article doesn't go far enough in citing claims, notable examples being the lead up to Jones leaving the stones. Concerning Jones' death while his girlfriends book is cited, it's probably a good idea to reference the book in ann official inline citation (though not required). A Final problem I see is in the "Writing credits" section; there are no citations there and is at times unencyclopedic in its tone and reads more like an essay. While you're clearly going great lengths to remain neutral in your presentation of the facts (though in its uncited assertions I can argue that it is NPOV), the prose needs some work here. "To conclude" is especially jarring. TonyJoe 15:55, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
C-Quotes
Hey, isn't this article a little heavy on the block quotes? It makes the entire thing a bit hard to read. 67.40.202.100
Hopkin-Jones?
The article gives his birth surname as Hopkin-Jones. The english birth registration index for March Quarter 1942 gives "Jones, Lewis B.H.". In other words, the Hopkin is not hyphenated with the Jones but is just another middle name. Bluewave 13:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Given that his name was formally registered as Jones, not Hopkin-Jones (I checked both options in the index), I shall remove the hyphen. Bluewave 07:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Jones' vocals
It is mentioned various times that Jones did some (back-up) vocals on Stones records. Factually he did sing back-up on the very first two albums, and live until early 1965, as did Keith Richards and Bill Wyman. By 1965, Jones ceased singing back-up, while Wyman moved to Richards' side of the stage. Wyman ceased singing live in early 1966. From 1966 onwards, Keith Richards was the only one to sing back-up to Jagger, until 1973 when Billy Preston started to sing back-up. In the studio, Jones voice can only be heard on the first two records. After 1965, his voice can not be heard on any records, including Ruby Tuesday and We Love You. About Sympathy: in the "Sympathy for the Devil" movie there's a large group set around one microphone, but if you look closely, most of the group (Jones, Wyman, Watts, Faitfull and Pallenberg) is not singing. On the cue sheets of the released version, only Jagger, Richards and Jimmy Miller are noted as doing vocals. (Heteren 12:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC))
Prove it. ChildOfTheMoon83 04:29, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
No, it's true, except Wyman was doing live back-ups until the Spring of 1967. I always credit everybody round that mike on "Sympathy" with a little backing vocals, just to be sure, and the other Stones [amongst others] are almost certainly on "Sing This All Together", but otherwise, Wyman and Jones do not sing on any released studio record after mid-1964.
John M. 17:34, 26 December 2006
Even on Ruby Tuesday? There are clearly three voices in the chorus. If the third one isn't Jones, then who is it? Jimmy Miller? And where can one find the cue sheets?
By the way, technically Jones did sing on a 1965 release, "The Rolling Stones, Now!". For example, he can be clearly heard on "Everybody Needs Somebody To Love". I know, I know...it was recorded in 1964, but it should be noted.
ChildOfTheMoon83 11:41, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Ruby Tuesday: The third voice is almost always another Jagger, the vocal chorus usually [to 1968, at least] being Richard and two Jaggers. I've got a number of bootlegged tracks wherein Jagger and Richard recorded the backing vocals first, then Jagger overdubbed the lead.
Jones is not on Everybody Needs Somebody To Love - not to my ears. Jones DOES sing on a 1965 release - "I'm Alright" from Got Live If You Want It EP / Out Of Our Heads. He backs up Richard's "Come on, come on, come on" at about the 1:30 mark. Here's my list of songs you can hear Jones' voice on, leaving aside the Sympathy question:
Come On [backing up Jagger in the chorus] Poison Ivy [Versons 1 and 2][Wyman on harmony, Jones is the third voice; mostly "aahs"] Fortune Teller [Ditto] Bye Bye Johnny [Back-ups on the chorus] Money [Back-ups on the chorus] You Better Move On [Harmonies with Wyman] I Wanna Be Your Man [Unison throughout the song, starting from the last line of the first verse, deviates a little at the end] Can I Get A Witness? [perhaps; along with Wyman? Richard? Allan Clarke? Graham Nash?] You Can Make It If You Try [probably; along with Richard and Wyman?] Walking the Dog [choruses] It's All Over Now [technically, it seems like he might've been on this, but this is probably the famous instance of Oldham "turning down his mike". He certainly made an effort to sing/lip-synch the choruses in performance. But then again, you can't hear him as far as I can see. But in the interest of completism, I'm mentioning it.] Time Is On My Side [Organ version] Empty Heart ["A-yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah", sung quite loudly into his harmonica mike] It's Alright [live- as noted above; Jones had a much bigger vocal role in this song at NME Poll Winners Party in April 1964] Salty Dog [from the Charlie is My Darling soundtrack, with Richard and Jagger, and Watts making silly "proto-Python" noises.] Sing This All Together.
If there's anymore, I'd love it, but that's it as far as I've researched, and I've done personnel listings that went down to counting handclaps.;-) I was always disappointed that Jones didn't have a more "Harrisonesque" role vocally, but the truth is that seems to be it, until we hear "Sure I Do" and [perhaps] "I Want You To Know". The truth is also obscured by people STILL claiming stuff like "It's Not Easy" and the like. John M. 5 March 2007
Actually Jones is clearly heard on the 1965 song "Everybody Needs Somebody To Love". He delivers the background vocal line "all the time" just before the "I need you" chorus. ChildOfTheMoon83 (talk) 11:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
If you're referring to the section at around the 3:00 mark on the UK version, that's an overdubbed Jagger to my ears. It sounds a lot like him and less like the voice singing the choruses of Walking The Dog. I did go over the vocal credits with a fine toothcomb for years, specifically detecting Jones, so I'm confident the list above stands. I'd love to be wrong, but I don't think I am. John M. 14:46, 25 Feburary 2008
Brian Does not sing on Ruby Tuesday because he is playing the flute. Silly Stone August 2007
That was recorded in the studio (and means nothing, as one can multi-track), and on the Ed Sullivan Show performance in 1967 (the same one with "Let's Spend Some Time Together" - I have it on VHS) he is clearly seen and heard singing during the chorus. ChildOfTheMoon83 (talk) 11:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
"Clearly heard" I feel is stretching it. He's singing along into Keith's live mike, but it's not like he's amazing clear. There's a quiet, undefined second voice singing along with Keith, that's all; even on DVD you can't pick him up that well. John M. 14:48, 25 February 2008
Honky Tonk Women
It is impossible that Jones' guitar can be heard on the released version of Honky Tonk Women. When recording Country Honk in early 1969 (Jones does not appear on Country Honk by the way) the Stones also attempted to record an electric version of the song. It is possible, but not likely (as Jones hardly contributed anything at this stage), that Jones contributed to one of the very early takes of this electric version. After Jones had left the band, Mick Taylor was asked to do overdubs on the acoustic Country Honk, and his country riffs and bends inspired the electric Honky Tonk Women (and inspired Keith to use one of Ry Cooder's riffs as an intro). The track was then recorded live in the studio, with Taylor and Richards playing guitar, and Richards adding numerous overdubs at a later stage. Therefore it is impossible that Jones plays on the released electric version of Honky Tonk Women: he was sacked before the song was recorded. Source of this information is interviews with all Stones members and Jimmy Miller, who produced the track and plays the cow-bell in the intro. (Heteren 14:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC))
YouTube links
This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message on the talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material violating someone's copyright. If you are not sure whether the link on this article should be removed or if you would like to help spread this message, contact us on User talk:J.smith/YouTube Linklist. Thanks, ---J.S (t|c) 00:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Brian Jones Presents The Pipes Of Pan At Jajouka and Joujouka
This talk page is designated for discussions about improving the Brian Jones article. Please go to the Brian Jones Presents The Pipes Of Pan At Jajouka and Brian Jones Presents The Pipes Of Pan At Joujouka pages to learn about or work on those articles. A user has had previously an interest in this although he and I came to a resolution on this subject today at the talk page, but still other people can help edit to improve articles. They must be kept NPOV and Tuathal has told me he will try to help in that regard. The article histories and talk page histories have relevant info but there's basically a name spelling change that a band underwent in 1972 that created some confusion and thus he and I decided to have two articles to solve a simple dispute. Emerman 20:20, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Jones state in late 68/69
Again someone edited the text with remarks how splendid Jones looked at the last stage of his live, and how wonderful he was. FACT: Jones looks terrible at the R&R Circus, and Jones looks terrible on the last known pictures of him. On the making of Sympathy: Brian is slouched in a stool, to wasted to play anything decent. He's is neglected by his bandmates, only Keith Richards throws him a cigarette (but refuses to give him his lighter). (Heteren 09:22, 5 February 2007 (UTC))
The question of whether the chicken or the egg came first comes to mind. Did the Stones neglect Jones because he was too zoned out on drugs, or did Jones get into drugs because he felt neglect from his bandmates?
I wouldn't call "Jones looks terrible" a fact, I'd call that an opinion...if you want to be specific, like "his eyes were glassy and he could barely speak", which is essentially what I put in the article, then it seems more NPOV.
ChildOfTheMoon83 11:48, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually, if you have seen the DVD and the interveiw with Pete Townshend, Pete says Brian was an emotional wreck, and was in tears most of the time. Silly Stone August 2007
I have (I own it, thank you very much) and it still doesn't answer my question. ChildOfTheMoon83 (talk) 11:59, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Gomper
I edited out the claim that he co-wrote Gomper as Brian only plays electric dulcimer (with a slide) in the verses, while adding flutes and organ in the instrumental jam. Writing credits for a jam don't exist as such. Keith Richards plays electric six- and twelve-string guitar, Watts and Jagger play percussion, Nicky Hopkins keyboards. (Heteren 08:25, 1 May 2007 (UTC))
Watched Brian Jones on the filmed SFTD sessions and he looks fine (ON Youtube they have the whole session for any to view). As for the Rock N Roll Circus, the whole group had a problem just staying up during the marathon event. Notwithstanding reports of Jones crying, he plays well on most of the gig. You kind of sense that they all know it's his last gig with the band. Brian played exceptionally well on "NO EXPECTATION. " He was a great slide player. GJ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.239.40.190 (talk) 03:42, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Jones not brass
Jones played neither trumpet nor trombone on "Something Happened To Me Yesterday", nor accordion on "Backstreet Girl"; these instruments are performed by hired session musicans. The brass on 'Citadel' is a mellotron.
Also, although Jones reportedly was able to play clarinet and piano, there are no known Stones recordings with Jones playing either. Jones reportedly was able to read music, but there is no proof of this. (Heteren 12:40, 12 July 2007 (UTC))
I'd like some proof of that. (User:John M. 7 September 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.219.118.21 (talk) 13:41, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
All tracks with piano have the player specifically credited (mainly to Ian Stewart, Jack Nitzsche, or Nicky Hopkins). There's not even a Stones track where Brian is 'reported' to have played the piano. The brass instruments and accordion are session musicians, as can be found in the log sheets of Bill Wyman (and the session musicians hired to play at Olympic were also hired by The Small Faces, as attested by Ian McLagan). The brass on Citadel is a mellotron; the 8-second tapes with brass sounds of the Mellotron MkII are also used by the Beatles and Family. The sounds are exactly the same. (Heteren 11:29, 24 September 2007 (UTC))
Interesting. Where do I find these log sheets? I'd be interested in any personnel listings you have, especially during the AFTERMATH/ BETWEEN THE BUTTONS era. (User: John M.) 15:26, 24 September 2007 (UTC)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.219.118.21 (talk)
It doesn't seem like Heteren has any log sheets. He/she is content to vandalize and rationalize. I await some evidence. ChildOfTheMoon83 (talk) 12:01, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
songs written about Jones upon his death
In addition to the two already cited, isn't Donovan's "Local Boy Chops Wood" about Jones? I notice it has the "Satisfaction" guitar riff at the end of the song. Jayspears 22:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)jayspears
You're absolutely right. I have no real proof, but I saw Donovan in concert late 2005 in Manhattan, NY at the Concert Hall for Ethical Culture (look it up, I'm not sure that's the exact name) and in introducing this song, he specifically stated that it was about Brian Jones. --137.238.146.17 (talk) 19:36, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Trained piano player
Jones reportedly was a trained piano player, but is there any proof of this? Fact is that Jones does not appear on any recording playing the piano, and to my knowledge not one musician or producer ever has cited Jones' skills on the piano. (Heteren 07:12, 28 September 2007 (UTC))
POV / Personal opinion
Moved from the section "Writing credits", as POV / Personal opinion / Weasel: "Many Stones fans feel Jones contributed a great deal to Stones songs and deserved credit which he never received for several earlier compositions. Other fans feel that Jones' contributions were important for the sound and music but that he lacked the talent to deserve songwriting credits." Please provide good cite(s) before replacing. -- 201.19.235.220 14:04, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
GA
I'm surprised this is up for a GAR, because there are far too many paragraphs that are not referenced.--andreasegde 10:30, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Failed GA 3
I have failed this article because of the lack of in-line citations. Someone has obviously worked hard on this article, but the lack of book page numbers and other internet references leaves me no alternative - this is what is required by Wikipedia. I actually know a lot of info in the article is true, but that's just my word against anyone else's.
Don't be despondent; all you have to do is dig out the books and put page number in-line references in, search for more references on the internet/newspapers/magazines, etc., and you will have a good article, with a little bit of work. --andreasegde 15:37, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
P.S., Please don't put this article back on the nominations list until the work has been done, because it will only be failed again, and takes up reviewers time by doing so. --andreasegde 15:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
mando-guitar
The Vox mando-guitar wasn't custom-made for Jones. It was a product that was actually on the market. It wasn't even a mandolin, either; it was a short scale 12-string. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.250.31.212 (talk) 16:37, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Again horrible editing
Childofthemoon83 has totally vandalized the article on Jones with horrible gossip and false information. All information on abortions and whatever are all gossip and heresay, and totally irrelevant for this article. Also, naming the exact 23 songs on which he played slide is redicullous: just name the one or two most important tracks. Please keep this article short and strict, with only proven facts. (Heteren 11:45, 14 November 2007 (UTC))
Exactly how is this vandalism? The abortion information is well-sourced and I have books to prove it, which I properly sourced before you deleted the references. Beats me why you are resorting to wanton deletion of well-sourced information.
Also, even if the 23 songs are "redicullous" as you say, this is an article about his life. Shouldn't the readers be entitled to all the relevant information? ChildOfTheMoon83 (talk) 11:53, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Just a small sentence change
Just felt like I should note this...
I'm changing this sentence:
"Wohlin claimed in 1999 that he had been murdered by a builder who had been renovating the house the couple shared."
This sentence, which is in the Death section, uses a misplaced modifier. It implies that Wohlin claimed that he himself was murdered. I'll change "he" to "Jones".
Sorry about the insignificance.
There's actually quite a few grammatical errors, in addition to the occasional shift from British English and American. E.g.,
Oldham's arrival marked the beginning of Jones' slow estrangement, his prominent role diminished as Oldham shifted the Stones's centre from Jones to Jagger and Richards. Oldham recognised the advantages of writing their own songs, as exemplified by Lennon/McCartney, as well as that playing covers won't keep a band in the limelight for long....
Suggested rewrite: "... Jones' role diminished as Oldham shifted the Stone's [s' or s's?] [center or centre?]... Oldham recogniz[s]ed the advantages of [having the Stones'?] write[no "ing"] their own songs, as Lennon and McCartney did in the Beatles. Oldham also recognized that playing covers would not keep the Stones in the limelight for long...."
Quite a few problems, in other words, and probably several ways to rewrite. In any case, the article might benefit from having a dispassionate editor go over it. C d h (talk) 21:49, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Backing vocals and bass guitar
Jones voice can not be heard on "Let's Spend The Night Together", "All Sold Out", "She's A Rainbow" and the 1968 recording "Sympathy For The Devil". Put on the headphones, Jones is NOT on any of these recordings. The Whoo-whoo's of Sympathy were rerecorded in LA with Jagger, Richards and Jimmy Miller. (Heteren (talk) 13:12, 11 January 2008 (UTC))
Oh why are people still adding information like this? There's a list of songs above with his vocal contributions listed. It might not be 100%, but it's a damn sight closer than mentioning stuff like "She's A Rainbow". Ridiculous.
Piano
On the DVD "The Making of Electric Ladyland" Eddie Kramer tells about Jones adding piano on 'All Along the Watchtower', and lowers the faders on all but Jones' piano. What is heard is clearly an untrained, amateur piano player. Hence, Jones is not a 'trained piano player' as is stated in this article. Also, Kramer and Mitch Mitchel (in his autobiography "Inside the Experience") states that Jones never added anything to any jam -not sitar, not percussion. (Heteren (talk) 13:12, 11 January 2008 (UTC))
Opinion, based on one video likely recorded in his later years of heavy drug and alcohol abuse. It's irrelevant.
And I have evidence that your later statement is incorrect - Jones and Hendrix did record songs (with Mitch Mitchell, no less) at the Olympic Sound Studios Sessions in England, with Jones audibly on sitar. You can find the recordings labeled "My Little One" here.
http://www.rocksoff.org/jimi.htm
ChildOfTheMoon83 (talk) 20:38, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
User:Heteren edits a bit strange
This user deletes a lot of sourced and referenced info while changing syntax slightly. I wonder about the agenda? Opiumjones 23 (talk) 23:20, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
- Are you referring to the edit regarding his mother teaching him the piano? Stan weller (talk) 00:21, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well more the deletions here that as well see here [1] Lot of info pulled by him/her. Opiumjones 23 (talk) 02:35, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- Most are minor changes. He pulls the alternate source of the band name from Bill Wyman's book. Somehow I trust Jagger over Wyman. Other changes are specific song credits, removing harmonica on "Little Red Rooster", guitar on "All Sold Out", organ on "Backstreet Girl", mellotron on "In Another Land", lead guitar "Tell Me (You're Coming Back)", mellotron and harpsichord on "Citadel", while adding mellotron on "Jigsaw Puzzle". Also removed is the phrase Jones played percussion on an unreleased Jimi Hendrix version of Bob Dylan's "All Along the Watchtower" together with a handful of unreleased jams with Hendrix and Dave Mason of Traffic in early 1968 There are no citations for any of the song credits in the article and It seems to me the editor is well informed so I intend to believe his edits are probably accurate. Wwwhatsup (talk) 03:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- Agree. The "piano" sentence included the word "supposedly," a no-no on wikipedia. If something is wrong with syntax feel free to fix it. Stan weller (talk) 03:39, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
>> I (Heteren (talk) 12:16, 16 January 2008 (UTC)) edited the text due to following reasons:
1) "He pulls the alternate source of the band name from Bill Wyman's book". First, I don't think a chapter on the naming of the band belongs to this Jones' article. Second, the version as told by Richards has been told by many other people who were around. I don't see the need to write down every other theory claimed by people who are unknown in Stones history. 2) "removing harmonica on "Little Red Rooster": I don't see the need to name EVERY song Jones played harp on. The list gets just way too long. Just name most instruments he ever played on record and name a song as example. Don't overdo it in my opinion. 3) "guitar on "All Sold Out": listen to the track, and you'll hear all guitars are played by Richards. In fact, Jones' only guitar contribution on all Stoens albums starting with 'Between the Buttons' is slide guitar on 'No Expectations'. 4) "organ on "Backstreet Girl": the organ is played by Jack Nitsche. 5) "mellotron on "In Another Land": according to Bill Wyman, Nicky Hopkins played the mellotron. In the various outtakes of the song, Hopkins indeed is on mellotron, Jones is not present at the sessions. 6) "lead guitar "Tell Me (You're Coming Back)": lead guitar is not an instrument or technique. 7) "Also removed is the phrase Jones played percussion on an unreleased Jimi Hendrix version of Bob Dylan's "All Along the Watchtower"....etc": According to Eddie Kramer and Mitch Mitchel as stated above, Jones never added anything other than amateuristic piano.
About the "supposedly piano": Several books claim Jones was a trained piano player, but to date he does not play piano on any recorded track, and his endeavours on other keyboard instruments (organ, mellotron etc) certainly fit the music, but do not sound 'trained' in any way. Also, no one around the Stones has ever claimed Brian could play piano to any degree. Last, Eddie Kramer dismisses Brian's piano on the outtake of 'Watchtower' as "second degree level" playing. In my opinion, there is no proof Jones was a trained pianist. I have deleted any reference to this several times, but people keep reverting these edits. That's why I added the word "supposedly". (Heteren (talk) 12:16, 16 January 2008 (UTC))
Heteren, I'm a trained piano player, started when I was six and took private lessons for 20 years, classical piano, Schubert, Chopin etc. I'm pretty good. When I play rock/pop riffs on piano it suddenly sounds horrible. I heard that piano part on All Along the watchtower, it's not terribly bad but misplaced, and Brian was not at his prime in 1968. That comment by Kramer is totally pointless. Brian took piano lessons and I read an interview where he talks about theory, he was probably just a little too "serious" and "trained". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.251.108.112 (talk) 18:52, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Fair use rationale for Image:RollingStones-JumpingJackFlash20.jpg
Image:RollingStones-JumpingJackFlash20.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 08:00, 21 January 2008 (UTC) There is a LIVE version of Brian Jones playing Piano on a TV gig in England just before the Rock N Roll Circus. It's fairly obvious that Brian is playing Piano on the tune called Sympathy for the Devil. Brian Jones could read music. It is so obtuse to think otherwise. Clearly, the classic sound of the Rolling Stones had very much to do with Brian Jones being the heart and soul of that special element that the Stones haven't had since he left the band. Go up on Youtube and you'll see the track that Jones plays paino on. The whole section about Brian Jones is cluttered with Brian Jones basher and is indeed unfortunate that the truth is pushed away. Brian Jones was an extremely talented and trained musician. Most song writing peers even today recognize this fact. The famous songwriters I've managed to talk with all say the same thing. The Stones without Jones just isn't as good. Eddie Kramer has stated that he felt that Brian Jones was the heart and soul of the band. Many also feel the same way. Thx u for the great music, Brian.
GJ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.86.96.82 (talk) 07:00, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Fair use rationale for Image:Brian linda.jpg
Image:Brian linda.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 17:48, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Again Jigsaw Puzzle
On the 8 CD set by Midnight Beat "Satanic Sessions" Volume One and Volume Two, disc 8 has eleven outtakes of Jigsaw Puzzle. It is totally clear from these recordings that Keith Richards plays the electric slide, and that Brian Jones was not present at the sessions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Heteren (talk • contribs) 16:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Author's opinion not needed
The last paragraph of the first section has the following: "Despite the fact that he had fathered two children at a young age, both with women to whom he was not married, Jones showed no sign of changing his lifestyle."
This sentence, seemingly offered from the perspective of late 20th/early 21st century moralism, is the author's opinion and should be deleted. I don't think the author was passing moral judgement on Jones;he was merely stating the truth when he said "Jones showed no sign of changing his lifestyle" as Brian continued to casually produce children out of wedlock with diverse women.As the mothers of these children were all abandoned and paid-off to stay quiet,one doesn't have to be a moralist to disapprove of that type of alley-cat behaviour.This does not detract from his musical ability or charismatic image, by the way. Talent and personal morality arejeanne (talk) 05:07, 5 April 2008 (UTC) not mutually inclusive. ```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rogmath (talk • contribs) 16:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Inaccuracy
In the article, under early life, it state's:
"In the spring of 1959, Jones's 14-year-old girlfriend, a Cheltenham schoolgirl named Valerie Corbett, became pregnant. She later married one of Jones' friends, Graham Ride, an author. She was four months younger than Jones, who encouraged her to have an abortion."
If it was the spring of 1959, Jones would have been 17 years old, since he was born in 1942. It says his girlfriend was 14 years old, so how can she four months younger than him? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Twohlrab3 (talk • contribs) 09:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
This sentence is so incoherent I cannot even tell what it is trying to say: "Until the group played blues covers or instrumentals credited to "Nanker Phelge", which showed a Jagger/Jones/Richards/Watts/Wyman composition. Through a publishing construction Oldham also benefitted from the Nanker/Phelge moniker." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.188.169 (talk) 23:53, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Read this article: [2]. It disproves the claim that Brian Jones couldn't get a visa to go to the US. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.73.116 (talk) 18:51, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Pioneer surly rock star
What is the author trying to say here? How is deliberately encouraging female fans to chase him indicative of surliness on the part of Brian Jones? I would call it teasing playfulness.
jeanne (talk) 07:39, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
When did Mo(rris) pass away?
The page currently reads: "Another builder present, called Mo(rris) passed away a couple of years ago."
The phrase "a couple of years ago" should be changed to the actual year. (I don't know what year. "A couple of years ago" in relation to when?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Karl gregory jones (talk • contribs) 21:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Death section
I propose everything in this section above "There is uncertainty as to the mental and physical state..." should be removed, or at least moved outside this section. As it is, before you get to any fact regarding his death, you must read through a very long-winded prelude. CapnZapp (talk) 12:37, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Ruby Tuesday
I added several comments by Andrew Loog Oldham from his book "Stoned", and took out the section on Ruby Tuesday, as there simply isn't any controversy at all on the author of the song. (Heteren (talk) 13:26, 17 September 2008 (UTC))
There is quite a bit of controversy. See Marianne Faithfull's opinion. Also see the way in which Marianne Faithfull was removed from the credits of 'Sister Morphine'. 41.241.33.51 (talk) 20:57, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Keith Richards had the basis of the song 'Ruby Tuesday' which was finished by Jones to a large extent. He deserves a co-credit for his contribution. It's very clear! (User: zapspace) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.198.235.173 (talk) 18:24, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
- if you have a source for these statements, please state the title, author, publication year, publisher, page number and ISBN.
- or provide a link to a website that isn't a fan-forum, blog or other self-published work. see WP:RS for what is considered a citeable source. thanks. Sssoul (talk) 23:35, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
There is so much evidence that Keith Richards wrote Ruby Tuesday (including the statement "I wrote Ruby Tuesday" by Keith Richards) that there is no controversy at all. Any involvement of Brian is just wishful thinking. (Heteren (talk) 12:16, 29 November 2008 (UTC))
Even he really came up with the riff for "The Last Time" and if he really helped writing "Ruby Tuesday" (than just playing recorder), it will remain almost impossible to prove this, more than 40 years after date.
All involved during recording (including all members of the Stones, the producer and the engineer) name Richards as the writer, and Jones' only contribution to the song is to play the main vocal melody on a recorder. Further, Richards -as the writer- is entitled to grant anyone he wishes a co-auther credit, and he and Jagger have agreed to always credit each other. (Heteren (talk) 22:40, 11 December 2008 (UTC))