Talk:Born to Die/Archive 1

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Archive 1

'Indie pop', 'pop rock' and mucho OR

I really don't understand the obsession with labelling pop acts as 'indie pop'. So there are a handful of sources describing Lana Del Rey as indie pop, there are far more that don't. Same with 'pop rock'. Pop rock describes Busted, The Feeling, Hanson, etc, - where are the sources describing Lana Del Rey as 'pop rock'? Her music has been described as all sorts of things, from her own description "Hollywood sadcore",[1] to "quasi-cabaret balladry",[2] "pop",[3] and "woozy and sometimes soporific soundtrack soul".[4] So why the fixation with trying to label her as 'indie pop'. The music she makes is not stylistically indie pop, and there isn't anything 'indie' about her. The fact that she makes 'pop music' is undeniable, so why not leave it at a broad genre rather than including a jumble of random genres in the article?

And by the way, the Independent source above confirms the name "taking the first name of Lana Turner and the surname from a car". So there is a reliable source for it.

We need to base articles on what reliable sources actually state, not pick out those sources that back up individuals' viewpoints.--Michig (talk) 20:08, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Lana herself said she doesn't feel part of the indie community. However, the media has labelled her as indie (just google her and you'll see that it is true). The article clearly state that THE ALBUM is Pop rock (Allmusic IS a reliable source), but the first two singles were described as indie pop (Yahoo IS reliable also). - Saulo Talk to Me 20:46, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
That Yahoo source is ONE (seeing as we're shouting) source - lots of others DON'T describe it as indie pop - get it yet? The Allmusic page on the album lists it as 'Pop/Rock', which is Allmusic's generic category for Pop and Rock music (as opposed to Classical, Jazz, etc,) - nothing to do with 'Pop rock' as a genre. Is any of this sinking in? While we have individual viewpoints dominating the articles on Lana Del Rey and her releases, they're never going to be very good.--Michig (talk) 21:18, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
Lots of sources DONT clasify her as indie pop? youre kidding right? the same way lots of sources DONT say evanescence is jazz (obvously not)or foster the people is metal(obviusly not), why? just because someone DOESNT say it isnt indie pop in a review doesnt mean it actually isnt, just sayin, there are sources that say she is indie pop, i dont see whats the problem here, wikipedia doesnt care what you think, if you think she isnt, then boohoo, many people out there do think she is indie pop, and many people think she isnt, were not gona waste our time arguing about it, if it has a good ref then feel free to label her as indie pop 24.227.9.114 (talk) 03:30, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Great song, looove her voice. There should be more sources citing her real influences though.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.88.243.142 (talk) 19:32, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Video Games used in "Ringer"

This article refers to an episode on September 28 2011. The Ringer article says that episode 3 went out on September 27 2011. Can someone confirm if this was the episode concerned and correct the date ? RGCorris (talk) 11:49, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Kill Kill - album or EP ?

The link from reference 2 quotes "Kill Kill" as an album, not an EP, and that is how it is referred to in the main article on Lana Del Rey. So why is it referred to here as an EP ? RGCorris (talk) 11:55, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Because it is an EP. The main article is wrong. - Saulo Talk to Me 13:32, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Can you confirm the number of tracks and their names ? RGCorris (talk) 14:36, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Is this the track listing, 'cos if so it certainly isn't an EP :
01. Kill Kill
02. Queen of the Gas Station
03. Oh Say Can You See
04. Gramma
05. For K Part 2
06. Jump
07. Mermaid Motel
08. Raise Me Up (Mississippi South)
09. Pawn Shop Blues
10. Brite Lites
11. Little Girls
12. Smarty
13. Yayo
RGCorris (talk) 15:51, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
It's an album.--Michig (talk) 17:47, 4 January 2012 (UTC) Or are the album and the Kill Kill release two different things as this suggests (which refers to Kill Kill as an EP)? The article would still need to be changed to reflect the first album from 2009.--Michig (talk) 21:04, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
It looks like the tracklisting above is from the Lana Del Rey aka Lizzy Grant album, and according to one source Kill Kill was 3-track EP.--Michig (talk) 21:26, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Details of both EP and 1st album now included on Lana Del Rey page. RGCorris (talk) 17:22, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Track listing

official track listing per Amazon: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Born-Die-Lana-Del-Rey/dp/B005QJZ5FA. please change it. 186.223.169.134 (talk) 04:18, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Swagu?

Per the Eliot Glazer ref, what does "the polarizing indie hipstress brought her 'gangsta Nancy Sinatra' swagu" mean? Is 'swagu' a recognized word? Should we clarify it so that the reader can make sense of it?--Michig (talk) 20:34, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

iTunes Tracklisting for "Special Version" of Album

Can be found on the German iTunes as of 6/12/2012 6:23 PM (GMT). It includes a new cover with "Born To Die" in red, 3 more tracks (Without You, Lolita, and Lucky Ones) and 2 videos (Born To Die and a performance of Video Games). Here is a screenshot of the above (in case it gets removed). Please update accordingly. 82.33.34.230 (talk) 18:24, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Leak

Here: Lana Del Rey's Born To Die Leaks, MTV — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.21.39.127 (talk) 03:35, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

WP:LEAK. We do not add album leaks in articles except in extremely rare instances like Beyonce's 4, or Britney's Femme Fetale. - (CK)Lakeshade - talk2me - 05:52, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Support needed

The article states: "Del Rey has once described herself as a "gangsta Nancy Sinatra",[20] though she cites Britney Spears, Elvis Presley and Kurt Cobain as her musical influences." I'm having trouble finding a direct quote to support her citation of Britney Spears, though. Of the two sources for this statement, the first claims "[Del Rey] cites everyone from Elvis to John Waters to Britney Spears to Antony and the Johnsons as her influences" while linking to a blog entry; however, the blog entry itself makes no mention of her musical influences. The second source links Del Rey to Kobain. Could someone post a direct quote of Del Rey citing Spears as an influence? Countercouper (talk) 02:21, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Replaced pictures with samples. Plus, Del Rey clearly states Britney is her influence on her official Facebook page and confirmed in an interview with MTV. Plus, the info is sustained by the Out Magazine source, which is reliable. - Saulo Talk to Me 18:26, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Billboard's Review

Here! - I think it's Positive! Beyoncetan (talk) 14:26, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Release date

According to this article, the album was released on Friday, January 27th. New album releases are always on a Tuesday, and in some other countries, Monday. But NEVER on a Friday, unless there's some extraordinary occasion for this particular album that I'm unaware of. Everywhere I go, the album's earliest projected release date is the 30th. I'm so confused here. 70.29.250.165 (talk) 10:27, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

The sources clearly state the album was released January 27th in Brazil and Ireland through iTunes. The content is sourced. Check it. - Saulo Talk to Me 22:40, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Writing Credits

The booklet with the album uses the name Lana Del Rey as the songwriter, whereas the Wikipedia page uses Elizabeth Grant. Should this be amended to match ? RGCorris (talk) 13:36, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Done — Status {talkcontribs 20:18, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Belgium

Born To Die's No. 3 in both regions http://www.ultratop.be/nl/showitem.asp?interpret=Lana+Del+Rey&titel=Born+To+Die&cat=a --79.199.37.152 (talk) 13:59, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Not done: Please express your request in a 'please change X to Y' manner. The people who service the requests are not always familiar with the article being changed. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 15:53, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 8 February 2012

Position "Born to die in charts in spain: Album: 9 Single: 48

77.229.181.88 (talk) 19:05, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Bility (talk) 20:43, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

http://portuguesecharts.com/showitem.asp?interpret=Lana+Del+Rey&titel=Born+To+Die&cat=a Add No. 3 for Portugal please! --93.229.105.180 (talk) 00:40, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Not done: Please express your request in a 'please change X to Y' level of detail. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 23:48, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Mexico

Please add No. 38 for Mexico to the chart positions http://www.centrodedesarrollodigital.com/amprofon3/100.php --79.199.39.247 (talk) 00:23, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Not done: Please express your request in a 'please change X to Y' degree of detail. Thank, Celestra (talk) 01:23, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Born to die has charted also in Italy (15th position) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.15.77.49 (talk) 18:27, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

What is a true review? Redrose64

Just wanted to check why one review in the Independent is given preference over another, Redrose64 you have made a correction stating: review is already listed at position 4, with the true rating of 5/5

One rating is no more 'TRUE' than the other could you explain,

Deneuve15 (talk) 14:39, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/reviews/album-lana-del-rey-born-to-die-interscopepolydor-6295631.html Deneuve15 (talk) 14:42, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

You posted the same question at User talk:Redrose64#lana del rey born to die review three minutes earlier. Please see my response there, also WP:MULTI. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:35, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Unreliable source

Is digital spy really a reliable source, the source I added is a global album sales chart which is regularly updated. Not a case of I just don't like it so I'm going to delete (which is what you did) it is more like I'm looking for factual information really rather than a comment made in digital spy. 188.220.44.105 (talk) 10:47, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The source you added the the furthest thing you can get from a reliable source. Digital Spy is an established source that is reliable. Mediatraffic.de is not allowed on Wikipedia under WP:CONCENSUS. Their figures are 100,000s to sometimes millions off of the actual figure. They don't track every market and they don't provide information on how they do their supposed tracking. The author is not an expert in their field and the website is self-published. Because of this please do not use this as a source again. Thank you. - (CK)Lakeshade - talk2me - 20:18, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
Could you actually show me that mediatraffic is not allowed to be used as a source on Wikipedia as it appears all over Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.105.60.118 (talk) 11:55, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
Discussion One: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_15#United_World_Chart_and_aCharts.us. Deletion of the article itself: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/United World Chart. WP:BADCHARTS, meaning the website is not allowed. It fails WP:RS in every single possible manner. - (CK)Lakeshade - talk2me - 19:51, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
Also, it is not used "all over Wikipedia. It's used in a whopping 3 articles: Mediatraffic search. Don't use WP:OTHERSTUFF as an argument. There's a reason why it's not present in more articles, because it's not reliable. - (CK)Lakeshade - talk2me - 20:00, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
I think you will find if you google mediatraffic and wiki there are a lot more than 3 articles, it's used as sales ref on a few articles, I guess wiki search filter isn't that great!
No need for the sarcasm it's an ugly trait in such minor disagreements. The reason the digital spy article is incorrect is because the figure is taken from a statement made by Polydor that they shipped 900000 units world wide, not that they sold 900000 albums. There is a big difference between units shipped and album sales. The correct amount should be shown, as the figure 900000 is incorrect and is nothing more than PR spin.

14:55, 24 February 2012‎ 78.105.60.118

undo edit by Jak Fisher

You deleted a review as you said two were linked to the same source they are not so I opted to undo your edit. The two Independent reviews both go the separate links one to a review by Simon Price [34] the second is a review by Andy Gill[40] 188.220.44.105 (talk) 15:07, 29 February 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.220.44.105 (talk)

Mixed reviews?

The article indicates that Born to Die received mixed reviews, althought the source (Metacritic, note 30) gave the album the metascore of 61, indicating "generally positive reviews". I tried to change that part, but somebody reverted my action. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.127.151.167 (talk) 15:02, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Second paragaph of introduction

I'm not tremendously fond of the second paragraph as it sounds like it was written by a promoter of the album. I feel that this sentence could be deleted: "Del Rey sings in a soprano vocal style in the album, and evokes elements of music artists such as Elvis Presley, Britney Spears, and Antony and the Johnsons." To my untrained ear, Del Rey does not sing in a vocal range for most of the album I am also unable to find citations for the second half of the paragraph "and evokes elements..." Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seadark (talk • contribs) 02:09, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Blue Jeans, rapping?

In the "Composition" section of this article, concerning "Blue Jeans," it is stated:

Del Rey also raps in a few verses of the song such as "You’re so fresh to death and sick as cancer/Love you more than those bitches before".[28]

However, if one were to follow the source, it actually only states that the lines above "could be lifted straight out of a rap hit." It is not implied that the lines are actually rapped. So isn't the inclusion of this a little misleading, since it's inconsistent with the source? The source is a great review, but it doesn't say what we're saying it says here.

Chart positions

Whats the big deal? The album charted on the Alternative Albums and Rock Albums at #1, and also on the Tastemaker Albums, if i put it on the chart section, why was it deleted? It doesn't matter if the album is rock, or alternative, or pop, or indie. if it charted on the charts DONT remove them, it is NOT a matter of opinion, if it charted on those charts, leave the information. If it ever charted on the Hard rock albums chart (which it should not, nor will it ever), regardless of the genre, no matter what it should be added because it is a fact, understand my point? 24.227.9.114 (talk) 03:09, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Paradise Edition song 'Burning Desire'

This morning I was on iTunes on my phone, about to buy Lana's new single 'Ride'. I noticed that The Paradise Edition was up for pre-ordering, and while I was going through the newly-revealed tracklist, I saw that 'Burning Desire' was for sale already. I don't know if you're going to add the fact but yeah... I'd upload a screenshot but I can't upload it here :P 193.209.10.2 (talk) 05:09, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Pussy

The track called "Cola" keeps being changed to the name "Pussy" or the name is added constantly as a subtitle. The only source that supports this title is a youtube video posted to Lana Del Rey's (apparently) official youtube account (not VEVO). The word "Pussy" is used in the video description instead of "Cola". However, the official iTunes release calls it "Cola" with no mention of "Pussy" made.[5] To me, the exclusion of the word is apparent. No reliable third party sources cite it. And until they do, I'm going to revert any additions about this. --Thevampireashlee (talk) 19:30, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

That is Del Rey's official YouTube account. It is partnered with YouTube, the official music video for Video Games by Del Rey herself was posted there first. The track is officially called "Cola" but I do think the subtitle "Pussy" should be included. teammathi (talk) 19:36, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Either way, I don't think it should be included. It's the only source, and it's not very reliable because it's a primary source. We'll have to wait until the reissue starts to be reviewed. Edit: The exact description does not say "The song officially known as "Cola" is also called "Pussy"." so any interpretation of this text is original research in my eyes and should not be included whatsoever. --Thevampireashlee (talk) 19:54, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
NME reported that the song was called "Pussy" and they obviously used the video as their source. This causes me to re-evaluate the reliability of the news source, but regardless, I've added information about it to the article, since even Billboard mentioned the song. No source besides NME calls the song "Pussy". All other media sources called it "Cola" along with the official iTunes release. I theorize that Del Rey wanted to name the song "Pussy", but her label protested for obvious reasons. Honestly, it disappoints me. I love Del Rey, always admiring the sophistication and poetry of her lyrics. Something as "trashy" as this makes me second guess her a bit, but my opinions aside, I've added the information to the encyclopedia. Cheers and thanks for putting up with me. :) --Thevampireashlee (talk) 01:52, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
The legal title is Pussy but they're not releasing it as that. It's on HFA and ASCAP as Pussy. But lets keep it in ( ). --MrIndustry (talk) 02:12, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
I see now that you're right. "Cola" is registered as "Pussy". Sadly, we can't link directly to those pages. Would really help us solidify the material over here. Oh well, looks like I dedicate more time to "Ride". --Thevampireashlee (talk) 02:32, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
Looking through these search engine results, there almost seems to be more sources talking about Cola/Pussy than Ride itself. We might be able to scrape together an article about that song alone, just because of the controversy surrounding it. --Thevampireashlee (talk) 02:52, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
Good idea. Haven't tried searching anything, but let me see.--MrIndustry (talk) 02:58, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
I added some information on it under the Born to Die - The Paradise Edition section on this article. --Thevampireashlee (talk) 03:01, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
Should the article be called "Pussy" or Cola"? Since it was originally called "Pussy" I think it should be called that but I'd like to hear/read other editors' opinions. teammathi (talk) 10:38, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
I think Cola is the common name, so that should probably be used. --Thevampireashlee (talk) 10:44, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
I created an article for the song called Cola (song). It's still a stub but can be extended. teammathi (talk) 11:26, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Release date

According to you BTD: Paradise Edt will be released on Nov 1213 and 16, but iTunes says that the release date is Nov 9.... 193.209.10.3 (talk) 20:31, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Please provide a link to this statement, because I'm looking here and it clearly says November 12th. --Thevampireashlee (talk) 02:34, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
It's November 13 in US on my iTunes. http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/paradise/id564997103 but it's probably different in each country.--MrIndustry (talk) 02:36, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm in the US too, but somehow I was viewing mine from the Thailand version? --Thevampireashlee (talk) 02:40, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
lol they were first to get it so you were probably just looking from there.--MrIndustry (talk) 02:43, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Paradise EP

iTunes has it as a separate EP release. I think we should consider it an EP and create a separate article for it. Any thoughts on this? Samlikeswiki (talk) 00:08, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

We can create a separate article. I don't have enough info on it but if someone else wants to do some research and make it.--MrIndustry (talk) 00:29, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
Ok, then I'll hold off on editing the atrociously written track listing. Samlikeswiki (talk) 00:53, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
Why is it written atrociously? teammathi (talk) 12:57, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
Paradise--MrIndustry (talk) 01:28, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
I agree with this. Including a subsection devoted to the Paradise Edition of the album on this page is confusing and makes the page unnecessarily bulky. The information would be better suited to have its own wiki entry, with a link to it and brief explanation on this page. I will create a new page for it since nobody else has yet. Scottdoesntknow (talk) 07:22, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
Scratch that, looks like someone else already has. I will transplant all the necessary info from this page and do a bit of clean-up. There is far too much information about the Paradise EP on this page. A summary of what the "Paradise Edition" of the album is is good enough with a link provided.
The EP is ONLY being released in the US (as of right now). It still needs to be formated as a re-release like Teenage Dream.--MrIndustry (talk) 15:20, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Since the album can be bought as a "deluxe" so to speak, while at the same time a person could just buy "Paradise" as a stand alone EP. Similar to The Fame Monster. Teenage Dream: The Complete Confection was re-released, but there was no option of simply buying the 6 new songs as a separate EP, similar to Good Girl Gone Bad. Therefore, this qualifies as an EP, not a re-release.

Of course it's an EP. But it's not an EP globally. I'm not familiar with how Wikipedia does this, but Lana Del Rey doesn't release singles in the same countries. Lady Gaga would release a single and it will be global, but not Del Rey. Therefore I'm not sure if Ride should even be listed as a single under EP. This is confusing. --MrIndustry (talk) 16:32, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
Actually, Ride was released in US itunes on the 29th. --MrIndustry (talk) 16:37, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

The Paradise Edition

The article currently has a picture of Del Rey's EP Paradise in place of a photo of The Paradise Edition. This is wrong, Paradise is not a version of Born to Die but an EP. The picture should be replaced with the artwork for Born to Die - The Paradise Edition. teammathi (talk) 07:58, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Two versions of the file were uploaded. One that I personally uploaded and another one. Somehow both of them were deleted. --Thevampireashlee (talk) 08:22, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Paradise and Ride

Re-opening this topic, since there seems to be confusion still on what should be included in this article. As I understand it, The Paradise Edition is a re-boxing of Born to Die that is also being sold as a separate EP, the way The Fame Monster did. This appears to be a trend with Interscope Records. Either way, I've encountered numerous edit wars on this article about where The Paradise Edition should be included here, or everything moved over to Paradise (EP), the article about the individual EP. Personally, I think it should be mentioned in both places, with a briefer description here that links over to Paradise (EP) in a hatnote under The Paradise Edition section. That said, there is also confusion about "Ride (Lana Del Rey song)". Is it a single from Paradise, a single from Born to Die - The Paradise Edition, or both? I would say both, since the albums are (or seem) to be treated as separate and unified albums at the same time. Hopefully we can reach some sort of consensus here about this. --Thevampireashlee (talk) 20:46, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
It should be made mention of, but I think majority of the article should be under the EP since it's basically a repeat of information. Ride is a single on both the EP and the re-release so that, too, should be included on both articles in the infobox. People just need to stop taking it away since they're obviously unaware. Originally the EP was only available in the US, but we'll see where else it's being released as well. TV | talk 22:34, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
Wasn't The Fame Monster supposed to be a re-release but was as an EP instead? That's what it says in the lead (I'm not reading the entire article, it's too long). So that's not the same as Paradise. "Ride" s a single from Paradise and Born to Die: The Paradise Edition but not Born to Die. I think it's a little confusing having it in the infobox of this page because it looks like it's a single from Born to Die. teammathi (talk) 23:11, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
I don't know. I hate Lady Gaga, so I'm not even going to read the article. Someone else brought the issue to my attention on my talk page and used that as an analogy. I falsely believed that they knew what they were talking about. --Thevampireashlee (talk) 23:21, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
I just look at how Katy Perry did it with Teenage Dream. They list them in the infobox. It's just confusing because they're doing both. Both infoboxes should mirror each other. --TV | talk 04:41, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Certification section

The certifications section has a code break. I can't find it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robinpfox (talk • contribs) 14:22, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

I found it and fixed it. teammathi (talk) 16:19, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Amazon, single information, and headers

Recently, various changes have been made to this article, Lana Del Rey, Paradise (Lana Del Rey album), Burning Desire (song), and Lana Del Rey discography in regards to various things (all pretty much the same edits or the same types of edits). Changing digital download internal wiki links to link to Amazon (incorrectly). Adding unsourced or dubiously sourced information about when certain singles were released in certain countries or whether they were singles or promo singles, and in this article in particular, incorrectly changing headers from lowercase to uppercase when it's both grammatically incorrect and inconsistent with the formatting of the entire article. The editor is Dark Beauty Paradise, and I don't want to single them out, but I have encouraged them to come here and engage in a dialogue with us, so we can all understand why the changes are being made, if they are necessary, and where to go from here. So if anyone has any opinions, I would love to hear them. :) --Thevampireashlee (talk) 01:34, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Needle drop

I removed the source in the article for the needledrop. It's self-published youtube video and that fails WP:SPS. A user reverted me here, so I've taken it to the talk page so they can explain in better detail. Andrzejbanas (talk) 22:41, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

The Needle Drop has quite enough experience and knowledge of music to be considered an expert on the topic. Judging from the article we have on the vlog program, it would seem that reliable sources consider him a reliable source. Additionally, the Pitchfork Media review says that the album employs "trip hop" beats. This has already been argued to the ground on other articles, with the main point being: trip hop songs have trip hop beats. That's not synthesis of sources, that's common knowledge, without the likelihood of being contested. Additionally, as per Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums/Sources#Sources to avoid, both iTunes and Allmusic are listed as sources to AVOID when sourcing genres on album articles, especially since we already have two reliable sources that support baroque pop and trip hop. --Thevampireashlee (talk) 00:39, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
EDIT: a quick Google search of "Born to Die genre" pulls up numerous articles that also support the trip hop genre. I added two more to the article, including Rolling Stone and New York. There's also one by A. V. Club that says: [Lana Del Rey's] aesthetic—a boutique blend of ’60s pin-up glam and indie listlessness, with a light dusting of trip-hop—was so refined that it had to have been manufactured.",read here which I chose to omit because it's more about her than the record. --Thevampireashlee (talk) 00:53, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
"A light dusting of trip hop" does not make it a trip hop album. If it had a light dusting of funk, is it a funk album too? Find more specific sources instead of scraping for things. And Needle Drop "has quite enough experience and knowledge of music", is your [[WP:OPINION

|opinion]], and you didn't address how that passes WP:SPS. We need third-party published sources, not people making video logs. Find better sources before changing things like this. Andrzejbanas (talk) 01:31, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

As for the Pitchfork one, the exact quote is " trip-hop beats and bits of 1950s twang". can I say it's a traditional country album because of that too? You can't take one and ignore the other. If it had hip hop beats, would you find Lana Del Ray next to LL Cool J in a store? Not likely. Andrzejbanas (talk) 01:40, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
Twang belongs to many different genres though. Surf rock being one which Del Rey's music has also been attributed to earlier in her career. It's not exactly the same situation, since trip hop is a genre and twang is a musical technique. Either way, I still do not fully agree with you on these points, but I think we have arrived at a compromise and the article should remain stable from here forward. --Thevampireashlee (talk) 02:43, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
Fair enough! :) I think you need to back up your points with sources. I've never heard of her being surf oriented in her career. Even if she was, that would be a 60's genre]http://www.allmusic.com/style/surf-ma0000002883 ]. If you are going to make these kind of statements. I think you need to back them up. Andrzejbanas (talk) 10:23, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
It's not really relevant to this article, but I do know that "Blue Jeans" was classified as falling under the genre. While I'm not putting sources here on this talk page, I definitely have placed them in relevant articles. Most of the mentions of her making "surf" music are radio interviews and critiques, so it's difficult to find links to them and cite them in a reliable and reference-able way. I love the singer and many of the article on Wikipedia are built up and maintained by me. --Thevampireashlee (talk) 13:52, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Problematic bias in the singles section

Currently the singles section of the article is written from a UK perspective and leaves out numerous singles released internationally including Carmen and Off to the Races. Just because a single isn't released in North America or the UK doesn't mean it is not a single. Both Carmen and Off to the Races have digital singles in a NUMBER of European countries. For instance: Carmen has a German iTunes single, and therefore, by definition is a single (https://itunes.apple.com/de/album/carmen-single/id493132396). Yet is continuely removed for singles that have had physical releases, which is an extremely dated perspective and myopic on what constitutes a single release. 142.165.122.121 (talk) 00:15, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Armbrust The Homunculus 13:17, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

– I believe that the Lana Del Rey album is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of the term Born to Die. This record pulled in 185,793 readers in the last three months, while "Born to Die" (song), Born to Die (Grand Funk Railroad album), and the disambiguation page Born to Die respectively attracted 27,102, 4,404, and 4,048 visitors in the same time frame. The three other songs listed do not have articles of their own, which implies that they lack the notability to consider for the primary topic. I was expecting the term Born to Die to be a much more generic phrase with a heftier disambiguation page, but to my surprise we are really just working with three articles for potential primacy, and the numbers clearly point to the Lana Del Rey album. WikiRedactor (talk) 20:31, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

  • Support The numbers speak for themselves, really. Littlecarmen (talk) 20:49, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose per WP:RECENT and per the requirements of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for long term encyclopedic notability more than all other topics put together... there is no primary for such a generic title. And per WP:SONGDAB removing the artist name is of little benefit to Lana Del Rey fans, let alone other users. Also, if it is okay to mention this, the wording in the nom: "really just working with three articles for potential primacy, and the numbers clearly point to the Lana Del Rey album" again WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is not Eurovision, we are not picking a winner, in most topics there is usually no primary topic, to have a primary topic is exceptional; the default is to have complete titles per WP:CRITERIA and ambiguous/generic phrases are dabs. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:40, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - massively - Regarding Ultraviolence (album), the current title of that page is unclear for Wikipedia searches, which contrasts with this page's current title. The current title is clear, consist, and consistent with other titled Lana Del Rey album/EP pages. Again, simply complying with WP:TITLE. I think changing the title is too late, this article is known as this, and its clear with its current state, so why change it? And whats with all of Lana's pages getting requested moves lately? And! Born to Die (Grand Funk Railroad album)... Meaning if this page went simply to Born to Die, people might be clicking on that, but actually meaning to click on the Grand Funk Railroad album. And I know the figures speak for themselves, but isn't Wikipedia editing about clarity and consistency? --Limbsaw ~talk~ 22:00, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose per In ictu oculi. I have nothing to add. Steel1943 (talk) 01:25, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
  • oppose WP:RECENTISM, per IIO -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 04:48, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Merger proposal (Born to Die – The Paradise Edition into Born to Die)

The content of this article is already discussed in the articles for Born to Die and Paradise, there's no need for a third article. Littlecarmen (talk) 19:03, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

  • @Littlecarmen: I think that the articles would be fine separate by comparison with The 20/20 Experience, The 20/20 Experience – 2 of 2, and The 20/20 Experience – The Complete Experience; while TCE doesn't contain special tracks separate from the original two records, it was still a compilation album that was released on its own and charted independently in a fair amount of music markets. Not to mention that the article for Born to Die article seemed overwhelmed by just the technical details of The Paradise Edition (track listing, credits and personnel, etc.) I have barely made it past writing the background section and cleaning up the track listing and credits for The Paradise Edition in the new article and its already over 22,000 bytes. WikiRedactor (talk) 19:33, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Born to Die sales figures of 7 million are shipped not sold

Born to Die sales figures are around the 4.6 million mark not 7 million, the 7 million is shipped amount not sales. Justin Parker was awarded an industry disk accolade in Dec 2013/Jan 2014 for co writing born to Die and the total worldwide sales were 4.2 million. Since the end of 2013 Born to Die has not sold 2.5 million copies, if it had sold 2.5 million copies in 7 months everyone would have heard about it as it would have sold more than the Frozen soundtrack which received a massive amount of press due to it's high sales in the past 8 months.

It's correct to list the figure as shipped rather than sold. Please see industry confirmation of worldwide sales figures here: http://instagram.com/p/iJyGGEgRyC/

Justin Parker is the co writer of the album and that is his industry award for total worldwide sales of Born to Die that he received in Dec 2014/Jan 2014.

According to IFPI's 2013 report Born to Die sales in 2012 were 3.4 million but Born to Die is not listed in the top selling best albums of 2013 in their 2014 report, it would have to be in the top ten of the Global best selling albums in 2013 for the 7 million figure to be correct, as it is not listed this is further confirmation the 7 million figure is not based on sales and is most likely a shipment figure.

http://www.ifpi.org/downloads/dmr2013-full-report_english.pdf http://www.ifpi.org/downloads/Digital-Music-Report-2014.pdf

It would be correct to list the 7 million as what it is shipped and not sold. Also Born to DIe is not listed the top ten of this year Nielsen SoundScan's newly issued report on music sales for the first six months of 2014, confirming that high sales of Born to Die were not achieved in the first half of 2014 therefore the 7 million figure is clearly wrong: http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/music/2014/07/02/vinyl-and-streaming-strong-in-midyear-music-report/12114379/

I have already contacted the Guardian and Fader, I'm sure Sound scan will release the actual figures. The exact same thing happened with the D.O.B the media just pick up on other published stories and duplicate the numbers as the Guardian did with the Fader interview. The D.O.B has only just been corrected after 3 years due to the Rolling Stone interview pointing it out.

It was also previously listed in the page as shipped here: As of June 2014, Born to Die has shipped 7 million copies worldwide, which @Littlecarmen: changed today along with my edit in the first section: Born to Die reach the peak position on eleven international record charts, and has shipped seven million copies worldwide as of June 2014. Polydor and Interscope can say they shipped a billion records but that does not reflect actual sales, you only have to look at the amounts in the certifications to see that around 4.5 million is a much more accurate figure than 7 million. Deneuve15 (talk) 14:43, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

It may be true that seven million copies of the album have been shipped, and not sold, but both sources used use the word "sold" and we cannot change that statement them based on original research. Littlecarmen (talk) 16:40, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Yeah I though you might say that; published media versus facts. Wiki is just marketing spin central no one comes here for facts. Just wanted to know why you also changed an original edit that had been there for ages I only edited one in the first section from sold to shipped but you also changed the one that originally said shipped to sold further down the page.Deneuve15 (talk) 17:05, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
That's not fair. Just because I adhere to Wikipedia's rules doesn't mean that I am trying to paint Del Rey in a better light to promote her work or something. I originally updated the sales figure in the commercial performance section from 5 million to 7 million with this edit. I just inserted a new number without paying much attention to the wording of the sentence and when I reverted your change I noticed my mistake and corrected it. Littlecarmen (talk) 18:19, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Genre

I have concerned about the album's genre in the infobox. Seattle Post-Intelligencer says: "Laden with indie pop, sad-core soul and slight hints of hip-hop, Born To Die is a mash-up of alternative genres...". Meanwhile, MTV News shares: "As someone who was disappointed by Lana Del Rey‘s infamous “Saturday Night Live” performance yet thoroughly enjoyed every song on her debut alternative pop album, Born to Die...". According to the given references, I think it is not appropriate to change the "alternative genres" to "alternative music", which redirects to alternative rock. Moreover, both sources characterize Born to Die as an indie pop record (alternative pop redirects to indie pop), so why don't we list indie pop in the infobox instead of "alternative genres"? — HĐ (talk) 15:13, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Alternative genre

This requires a discussion, because my edits regarding this issue have been constantly reverted. "Alternative" should not be listed as a genre. The writer in the source for "alternative" writes as follows:

"Laden with indie pop, sad-core soul and slight hints of hip-hop, Born To Die is a mash-up of alternative genres that take on such soporific themes as despair, yearning, emotional freedom and the ubiquitous appeal of youthfulness in a world obsessed with the young."

The writer clearly states that the album is a "mash-up of alternative genres". Nowhere in the review does he state that the album is full-on alternative. I stated this in one of my edits, yet the edit was reverted anyway. Aria1561 (talk) 03:16, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

That seems to be an explicit reference (in literary diction) to the album embodying the alternative genre, so that's why it has been accepted on the page for well over a year. User: SuburbanNature 14 October 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.10.135.32 (talk)
That's not what the reviewer is referring to. Like I said, he's not calling the album alternative, he's calling it a mash-up of alternative genres, and if you look at the article for alternative rock, there are many subgenres listed for it. Aria1561 (talk) 16:52, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
...which is why the album was correctly labeled as "alternative" music. It's a well-known, accepted genre by critics and wikipedia alike. ilovetati91 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:23, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

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GA Review

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Born to Die (Lana Del Rey album)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: J Milburn (talk · contribs) 11:19, 5 March 2016 (UTC)


Happy to offer a review. Josh Milburn (talk) 11:19, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

  • "moving one million units" Is this a little informal?
  • "After attaining online success after its initial premiere on June 29, 2011" Repetition
  • "performed sporadically" It's not clear to me what this means
  • "The Cedric Gervais remix of "Summertime Sadness"" Why not "Cedric Gervais's remix"?
  • "Del Rey additionally promoted" Why "additionally"?
  • "It was reissued on" Presumably by "it" you mean "The album"?
  • "with her third" Del Rey's third?
  • "she found herself in conflict with" This sounds a little euphemistic. At the very least, it seems to suggest that Del Rey was the victim of circumstance rather than a party in the disputes.
  • "final product Lana Del Ray was digitally" Clumsy- some dashes or commas would surely be required
  • "although her stage name was respelled Lana Del Rey shortly after its launch" It's not clear why this belongs as a part of the previous sentence. Why "although"? Also, this seems to be quoting words-as-words, so you should use italics.
  • "Initially, she had released the song because it was her "favorite" and had no intentions of releasing it as a single, although the video went viral on YouTube after its premiere." Where does it say this in the source cited?
  • "Taratata" Notable? Don't be scared of redlinks.
  • "The cover for Born to Die was photographed by Nicole Nodland" No- the photograph used on the cover was.
  • You're going to need to give an indication of the date on the fifty best covers list
  • "Steelfish" Notable? Again, don't be scared of redlinks.
  • Is Dale Eisinger definitely female?
  • "Its track listing" The album's tracklisting, not the cover's tracklisting.
  • " it became her major-label debut after securing a distribution arrangement with Interscope Records" This is all over the place. The "her" is unclear, and the subject seems to shift from Del Rey to the album
  • "In regards to the use of her lower vocals on the tracks, she stated that" What lower vocals? Who stated?
  • "Tim Lee of musicOMH noted the songs are extremely similar, commenting that "her (alleged) agents clearly having stumbled upon a formula with which they can (allegedly) print money and (allegedly) further consign Lana's secretive, (allegedly) real debut LP to the annals of history. You didn't hear it from us, right?".[22]" What's that all about?
  • " Del Rey has once been described" Rhetoric
  • "though she cites Britney Spears" Why "though"?
  • You don't need speech marks or the final period on the blockquote.
  • "has been lyrically described" That's not what "lyrically" means. "lyrically described" means "described in a lyrical way". What you want to say is something like "The lyrics of x have been described as"
  • ""Million Dollar Man" was likened to a sedated Fiona Apple." Surely not. A song isn't going to be compared to a human being
  • "Musically compared to" As with "lyrically".
  • " the theme, as a whole, is that of a "bitter, albeit narcotized, criticism of all of the wealth and emotional artifice Lana Del Rey is accused of embracing"" The "theme" is a "criticism"? This doesn't quite work.
  • "Vocally, NME observed that" First, you're using "vocally" wrong, as above. Second, perhaps consider naming the journalist rather than just the publication.
  • "on prime spot on The CW's Ringer on September 28, 2011" Clumsy and informal
  • "propelling Del Rey into the mainstream" Rhetoric
  • "performances in a number of live appearances" Clumsy
  • "on an intimate show" ?
  • "and was even criticized" Rhetoric
  • "quickly came to her defense" Rhetoric
  • " latter stating the criticism" that
  • "played another Del Rey song "Blue Jeans" on" Again, you're going to need to add commas/dashes or rephrase this sentence
  • "The music video was considered as the one that propelled the singer's online popularity." Passive voice/weasel words
  • "The music video received generally favorable reviews from contemporary critics." Are you basing that claim on a single source?
  • "was also released as the final single" It was also released as a single; it was the only final single. (Also, you seem to be lacking references around here.)
  • "Due to strong digital downloads following the album's release "Radio" charted at number 67 in France" This sentence needs work.
  • "through her Facebook that the" This doesn't work. Her Facebook profile, perhaps?
  • "Sputnikmusic disliked the album, saying "The worst thing about Born to Die is that even its great songs contain problems"" Check the punctuation, and again, perhaps consider naming the journalist
  • "With the release of Born to Die, Del Rey became the main focus of attention of the press, not only for her music but her image." CLumsy
  • "the singer has been causing a stir in the media, which has caused many to begin to question about her past and accuse her of trying to erase it with a different type of songs and style. Considering the album's composition and her appearance, many tabloids began to question her authenticity and said that her success was due only to her beauty." Rhetoric and weaselly.
  • "also proved to be in favor of Del Rey, declaring" Rhetoric
  • "After years of criticism and her Saturday Night Live performance being considered one of the worst of all time,[110][111][112] music magazines such as Billboard, NME and Complex listed Born to Die among the best albums of the decade.[85][113][114]" Rhetoric
  • Template:Album cover fur would perhaps be useful for your album cover.

I've not delved fully into the sources, but a glance doesn't throw up too many problems. However, I feel that this article falls some way short of being ready for GA promotion, due to some less-than-ideal writing and some POV issues which arise from weasel words and rhetoric. I think this may take a moderate amount of work, but I'm happy to leave the review open for now. Josh Milburn (talk) 12:15, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Josh, I'd just like to inform you that I saw this as soon as it was nominated, and it was a drive-by nom by someone who had never contributed tot he article. I'm sure you will have to fail it. dannymusiceditor what'd I do now? 14:34, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
@DannyMusicEditor: Thanks for the note. @Matt723star: It is normally preferable to consult with an article's regular editor(s) before nominating said article at GAC. If you are not willing to engage with a review, it would be advisable not to nominate articles at all. In nominating this article before it was ready and in choosing not to engage with the review you have effectively wasted my time, which is a shame. I am closing the review at this time; this article certainly isn't terrible, and with a little work (perhaps based on the comments I left above) could push it to GA ready. I encourage any interested editor to work on the article and renominate. (As a final closing comment, I note that the article is a little light on details about recording.) Josh Milburn (talk) 18:57, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 11 March 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. Consensus is that this is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Cúchullain t/c 16:20, 19 March 2016 (UTC)


– Similar to the recent move at Show No Mercy. This album was a major success all around the world and has been one of the 70 best-sellers in the US every year since its release, whilst the other one was a very low-charter in just the US and Canada. The page views also speak for themselves: less than 2,000 views in the past month for the Grand Funk Railroad album, with almost 30,000 for Lana Del Rey's in the same time period.[6] Unreal7 (talk) 15:42, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

  • Support. Even adding in pageviews for the eponymous song from the album and the related later release Born to Die: The Paradise Edition, this album article gets 64% of pagviews for "Born to Die" topics (including all others on the dab page). I don't think anyone can raise a long-term significance argument on behalf of any of the other topics, so this is a pretty clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Dohn joe (talk) 16:53, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose WP:RECENT WP:NCM and no added value to anyone who actually wants this article to ambiguate and hide it. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:08, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
I'm not even going to bother telling you this time because you just keep ignoring me. Unreal7 (talk) 02:07, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Support – clear primary topic. sst✈ 15:40, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Scholarly paper by T.Jirsa

T. Jirsa offered the following source for editors to use in the article. It's refreshing to see a high quality source some along. Binksternet (talk) 18:21, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

  • Jirsa, Tomáš (Spring 2015). "Ascension of the Pop Icon: The Creativity of Kitsch (Not Only) in a Music Video by Lana Del Rey". Moravian Journal of Literature & Film. 6 (1): 5–28.
Looks like this material could be used to help write a new section about the music video for this song. Jirsa talks about how Del Rey uses kitsch in the video's imagery. Other observers could be quoted about the video, to round out the section. Binksternet (talk) 19:26, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
Dear Binksternet, thank you for reading the paper on the Born To Die music video. I like your idea of making a new section about the music video but the problem might be that, as far as I know, there is no other scholarship on this piece, just a few magazine articles and critiques (quoted in the paper, as well). Would you please be willing to help me with making that new section? Another way to use the paper summary and analysis would be to incorporate them in the "reception" section of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_to_Die_(song)#Music_video. Please let me know what you think.--Scholarwhale (talk) 09:47, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
Scholarwhale, I found it difficult to summarize the paper for Wikipedia. The paper contains a lot of analysis and comparisons, but its conclusions are unique rather than supported by other writers. I would not like to put an outlier opinion in front of the reader while representing it as fact, especially since the writer is not well known. Binksternet (talk) 23:01, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
Dear Binksternet, thank you for your answer, you are completely right - not only about the rather subjective conclusion. However, as I still find the article quite useful, I would like to suggest two different ways how it could be used: 1) to paraphrase a more general claim about the music video´s unique visual aesthetics combining different contexts; 2) to make a new section "Further reading" (or something similar) with only mentioning the title of the article within (along with other sources, e.g. a recent special issue of Variety focused on Lana Del Rey) - for those who want to know more about it (as I still believe that such analyses based on the informed and comparative close reading are more insightful than mere journalist evaluations).

If you prefer the first option, I would then suggest paraphrasing at least the following claim (but, of course, feel free to modify it) from the article (p. 5): The music video wittily combines two emblematic spaces of cultural history (Mannerist Chapel of the Trinity of the Palace of Fontainebleau in France; American white Pontiac) and the exalted affectivity of the tragic love, imbuing the scene with Christian iconography, Baroque contrast, Mannerist gestures, and the contemporary popular culture. The initial scene, framed by the embrace of a half-naked tattooed couple against the backdrop of the fluttering flag of the United States, can be seen as an allusion to Madonna whose music video for the song “American Pie,” (dir. Philipp Stölzl) features Americans of all generations, colors, and sizes posing in front of the American flag hanging in the background, with heterosexuals, as well as gays and lesbians, kissing in front of it.

Would you agree with one of those options? --Scholarwhale (talk) 14:15, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

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GA nomination

This article is pretty far from GA standard: any issues mentioned in the previous GA review have not been adequately addressed. @Aitch & Aitch Aitch: you have addressed a few of the issues raised in the previous review but otherwise have not made any substantial contributions to this article. I see some quotes as well. I would recommend withdrawing the nomination. feminist (talk) 17:43, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

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