Talk:Bolesław I's intervention in the Kievan succession crisis/Archive 1

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Old talk

I fixed a number of problems with this article resulting from Ghirlandajo's recent edits. Among them were:

  1. Neither Thietmar nor Gallus mention any popular uprising or plundering of the city (and it is to be noted that Thietmar seems to hate Boleslaus really deeply). Indeed, Ruthenia was plundered as Boleslaus was heading towards the city, but the city itself (though probably plundered as well) was kept in a good shape and there are no traces of a popular uprising. Especially that Sviatopolk kept the throne even after the Poles left (though lost it soon afterwards).
  2. Also, Boleslaus withdrew from Kiev not because of some alleged popular uprising but because he had problems with Germans of Henry II and even more important problems with pagan reaction to christianization. Halibutt 12:52, 30 November 2005 (UTC)


Again speculations? I don't think that Thietmar was particularly concerned about domestic problems of "antiquus fornicator" as he styles Boleslaus. Furthermore, the historian died by the time of Polish retreat. Anyway, here go appropriate translations from Russian sources:

  1. "Недовольство народных масс владычеством иноземцев вынудило польские войска оставить Русь" (Great Soviet Encyclopedia),
  2. "Болеслав, с частью войска, оставался некоторое время на Руси, и только когда русские стали избивать поляков, ушел домой, захватив имущество Ярослава и заняв по дороге червенские города." (Brockhaus-Efron). --Ghirlandajo 13:22, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

When outside talk pages or national notice boards please use English not Russian-which isn't understood by many people(including me). --Molobo 13:36, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

LOL! Initially I wanted to accuse you of using the Great Soviet Encyclopedia, but thought you might feel offended. But now that you admit it yourself... Halibutt 13:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
LOL indeed. Basing on this "source" you may contribute "successfully" to articles like USA, capitalism or Spanish Civil War as well. =) This encyclopediae can be used only as a source in 1. maths 2. history of propaganda. And by the way: please, write in English. Greets, aegis maelstrom δ 07:55, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I fail to see why you find the GSE's coverage of the 11th-century topics deficient. It is as good a source of information as any others. At least it knows how to tell Kievan Rus from Ruthenia, unlike some editors here. Anyway, here go some more reputable sources, including the Hypatian Chronicle:

  1. Поляки вызвали среди населения Киевщины возмущение; русский народ стал избивать поляков «отай», т. е. тайно от властей, которые, по вполне понятным причинам, при создавшемся положении не могли стать на сторону восставших. Болеслав вынужден был поспешно возвратиться к себе домой, захватив, однако, Червенские города, недавно отвоеванные у Польши Владимиром Святославичем. (Academician Boris Grekov, [1])
  1. В новелле ПВЛ виновником ухода Болеслава представлен «безумный Святополк», который дал приказ избивать «ляхов» по городам, в результате чего Болеслав «бежа ис Кыева, воизма имение и бояры Ярославле и сестре его, и Настаса пристави десятиньного къ имению, бе бо ему вьверилъ лестью» [Ип. ,131]. [2] --Ghirlandajo 14:02, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Here goes Karamzin's version of events - for processing: --Ghirlandajo 14:04, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

За несколько месяцев до того времени страшный пожар обратил в пепел большую часть Киева: Ярослав, озабоченный, может быть, старанием утешить жителей и загладить следы сего несчастия, едва успел изготовиться к обороне. Польские Историки пишут, что он никак не ожидал Болеславова нападения и беспечно удил рыбу в Днепре, когда гонец привез ему весть о сей опасности; что Князь Российский в ту же минуту бросил уду на землю и сказав: не время думать о забаве; время спасать отечество, вышел в поле, с Варягами и Россиянами. Король стоял на одной стороне Буга, Ярослав на другой; первый велел наводить мосты, а второй ожидал битвы с нетерпением - и час ее настал скорее, нежели он думал. Воевода и пестун Ярославов, Будый, вздумал, стоя за рекою, шутить над тучностию Болеслава и хвалился проткнуть ему брюхо острым копьем своим. Король Польский в самом деле едва мог двигаться от необыкновенной толщины, но имел дух пылкий и бодрость Героя. Оскорбленный сею дерзостию, он сказал воинам: «Отмстим, или я погибну!» - сел на коня и бросился в реку; за ним все воины. Изумленные таким скорым нападением, Россияне были приведены в беспорядок. Ярослав уступил победу храброму неприятелю, и только с четырьмя воинами ушел в Новгород. Южные города Российские, оставленные без защиты, не смели противиться и высылали дары победителю. Один из них не сдавался: Король, взяв крепость приступом, осудил жителей на рабство или вечный плен. Лучше других укрепленный, Киев хотел обороняться: Болеслав осадил его. Наконец утесненные граждане отворили ворота - и Епископ Киевский, провождаемый духовенством в ризах служебных, с крестами встретил Болеслава и Святополка, которые 14 Августа въехали торжествуя в нашу столицу, где были сестры Ярославовы. Народ снова признал Святополка Государем, а Болеслав удовольствовался именем великодушного покровителя и славою храбрости. Дитмар повествует, что Король тогда же отправил Киевского Епископа к Ярославу с предложением возвратить ему сестер, ежели он пришлет к нему дочь его, жену Святополкову (вероятно, заключенную в Новогородской или другой северной области).

Злодеи не знают благодарности: Святополк, боясь долговременной опеки тестя и желая скорее воспользоваться независимостию, тайно велел градоначальникам умертвить всех Поляков, которые думали, что они живут с друзьями, и не брали никаких предосторожностей. Злая воля его исполнилась, к бесславию имени Русского. Вероятно, что он и самому Болеславу готовил такую же участь в Киеве; но сей Государь сведал о заговоре и вышел из столицы, взяв с собою многих Бояр Российских и сестер Ярославовых. Дитмар говорит - и наш Летописец подтверждает, - что Болеслав принудил одну из них быть своею наложницею - именно Передславу, за которую он некогда сватался и, получив отказ, хотел насладиться гнусною местию. Хитрый Анастас, быв прежде любимцем Владимировым, умел снискать и доверенность Короля Польского; сделался хранителем его казны и выехал с нею из Киева: изменив первому отечеству, изменил и второму для своей личной корысти. - Польские историки уверяют, что многочисленное войско Россиян гналось за Болеславом; что он вторично разбил их на Буге и что сия река, два раза несчастная для наших предков, с того времени названа ими Черною... Болеслав оставил Россию, но удержал за собою города Червенские в Галиции, и великие сокровища, вывезенные им из Киева, отчасти роздал войску, отчасти употребил на строение церквей в своем Королевстве. Please translate the text into English. --Molobo 14:09, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Molobo or Moloobo (I'm kinda confused with your names), I'm not a professional translator to render classical works of literature in English. Translating Karamzin is not easier than translating Mickiewicz, if you know who the latter is. I advise you to go to a local library (probably for the first time in your life) and to obtain a Polish translation. On the other hand, your own comments in this project, desultory as they are, should be written in English. --Ghirlandajo 14:16, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I am sorry but this is english Wiki and if you want to use a reference you have to translate its important fragments into English if you want to discuss it with other people.Not many know Russian. 'Moloobo' That was a vandal that tried to abuse my name. --Molobo 14:49, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

(Great Soviet Encyclopedia)

Tsarist and Soviet Historiography What historical legacies did Ukrainians and Russians inherit from the former USSR which they now have to grapple with? Indeed, what are these profound and often disturbing legacies? The Russian historian, Yury Afanasev, complained that, ‘there is not, nor has there ever been a people and country with a history as falsiŽ ed as ours is …’10 Soviet historiography after 1934 largely returned to the Tsarist Russian scheme of history. It was a historiography, ‘which could, for the most part, be read with approval by the tsars themselves’, Lowell Tillet commented.11 Soviet historiography after 1934 served the goals of the Communist Party’s nationalities policies in the elaboration and inculcation of new myths and legends. Crucial elements of this ‘elaborate historical myth’ which Soviet historiography aimed to propagate were:12 · rehabilitation of the past; · superiority of ‘Great Russians’ as natural leaders; · the lack of ethnic hostility now or in the past; · help in the creation of a new Soviet patriotism; · there were no conquered territories, only ‘unions’ and ‘re-unions’. Friedrich Engels, Karl Marx and Vladimir Lenin had been wrong to condemn Tsarist Russian ‘expansionism’. The views of Bolshevik historians in the 1920s, such as Mikhail Pokrovsõ´kyi, who had condemned Tsarist expansionism, were also condemned; · these ‘unions’ and ‘re-unions’ brought only positive beneŽ ts or, at a minimum, were the ‘lesser of two evils’; · greater centralisation was a positive development; · nationalist agitation was against the wishes of the narod; · the non-Russians were incapable of creating their own state; · the Russian mission civilisatrice was beneŽ cial; · the History of the USSR was in effect that of the History of ‘Russia’. The Russian Federation did not therefore have its own separate history which dealt purely with the ‘Great Russians’ or Muscovites; · non-Russian histories were treated as regional histories of ‘Russia’; · Russian control over Ukraine and Belarus was never perceived as ‘annexation’; merely the recovery of the Tsar’s patrimony. In 1947 and 1954 new theses codiŽ ed 112 T. Kuzio the eastern Slavs as historically belonging to one Rus’kii narod. Use of the terms Russian, Rus’ian and east Slavic became inter-changeable;13 · Ukrainians and Belarusians are not separate peoples, but branches of the east Slavic Rus’kii peoples. Therefore, they should not have their own independent states, which are only ‘temporary’, but should be in union with Russia.14 From: http://www.taraskuzio.net/academic/history.pdf --Molobo 13:41, 30 November 2005 (UTC) I fail to see why you find the GSE's coverage of the 11th-century topics deficient. It is as good a source of information as any others. At least it knows how to tell Kievan Rus from Ruthenia, unlike some editors here History under Soviets in relation to Russia, Ukraine, Belarus was falsfied for propaganda goals.Also please translate Russian text if you want to discuss it. --Molobo 15:02, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Article's name

The article has just been moved to <Kiev Expedition and I moved it back with no prejudice to the editor who moved it. I just think the move has to be proposed at talk first so that others who watch this article could have a say on the issue. This issue was discussed to a degree at Polish Wikipedians' notice board. Please check the discussion there too if interested. --Irpen 00:53, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe you mean Kiev Expedition. The reason for the move is to improve the awkward English and to give the article a name that is found in the historical literature. Appleseed (Talk) 01:00, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

All I am saying, is that such moves have to be proposed first. If there is no resistance, it will be moved. If there are objections, they could be discussed. I simply object to uniletaral moves, except in cases of typos and other similar reasons, and ask everyone to propose their moves first. --Irpen 01:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

It's been over a week without any comments or objections, so I have moved the article. Appleseed (Talk) 19:50, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Move page

User:Ghirlandajo insists on moving this article to Polish Expedition to Kiev. I asked him to use the talk page to propose the move, but he accuses me of making "undiscussed", "whimsical" moves, even though no one objected to my proposal above. Appleseed (Talk) 20:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree there is no need to add nationality here, unless there are several Kiev Expeditions by various nations that could confuse people.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  06:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Now there's more edit summary accusations, but for some reason Ghirlandajo still refuses to use this talk page. This is becoming frustrating. Appleseed (Talk) 14:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
PS, I can't communicate with him on his talk page because he deletes my messages. Appleseed (Talk) 14:07, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually both titles are bad. Obviously Appleseed doesnt know Polish history: yet another "Kiev Expedition" was made by Pilsudski as stated e.g., at his fan's website pilsudski.org. Or from academic references: "Kutrzeba, T., Wyprawa Kijowska 1920 Roku, Warszawa 1937". In en: wikipedia it is known as Kiev Offensive. At the moment I have no better proposals. "Battle/invasion/operation/offensive" seem not good for this case. But one thing is for sure: Just as with kings, there should be a decent naming system for maning battles: clearly each major city was a place of dozens of battles.

Therefore I suggest that is issue must be resolved not here, but in the wikiproject "Military History", which actually has naming conventions. Who has friends there? `'mikkanarxi 21:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

From what I wrote above and saw in MilHist page, in our case the proper name would be Kiev Expedition (1018). `'mikkanarxi 21:40, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

P.S. What amuses me, not a single Battle of Kiev is linked to Polish wikipedia. Oh, yeah, here they are: pl:Józef Piłsudski#Wyprawa kijowska and, amazingly, a third wyprawa: pl:1069. `'mikkanarxi 21:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

In addition, the 1018 is actually known as "wyprawa na Ruś Kijowską", i.e., Kievan Rus Expedition `'mikkanarxi 21:40, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Hehe; acording to Thietmar of Merseburg, it turns out there was Wyprawa Kijowska of 1013, which fizzled. So only Polish Kiev Expeditions, there were at least four. In view of these findings, there must be Kiev Expedition (1013), Kiev Expedition (1018), Kiev Expedition (1069), and Kiev Expedition (1920). `'mikkanarxi 21:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

And I strongly suspect that "Kievski pokhod"/"pokhod na Kiev" will bring us a dozen more dates. Does anyone have a Cyrillic keyboard to do a google search for these phrases? `'mikkanarxi 22:19, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

On a funny note, google says there was a "Czech trolleybus invasion of Kiev", in addition ot Nazi and Mongol ones :-) `'mikkanarxi 22:19, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Mikkalai, I do in fact know a bit of Polish history, and even if I didn't, Kiev Offensive is linked from the See Also section of the short article, so it's hard to miss. Ghirlandajo, too, knows that there were multiple battles at Kiev (I know this because he mentioned it on my talk page), but, strangely, instead of adding a year to the title in order to disambig, his solution was to add "Polish", which does not disambig.
I agree with your proposal to add the year to all the Kiev Expedition articles. See how many entries there are for Battle of Warsaw, and it seems to work well enough. Appleseed (Talk) 22:47, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Good. Surely this approach simplifies naming conventions. A year IMO is enough for disambig. If there are two batles same place/same year, one can add month as, e.g., in Battle of Krasnoi (August 1812) I keep forgetting to make a stub. `'mikkanarxi 23:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I certainly support year version, it makes the most sence.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  00:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Lord knows I've had my differences with Ghirla in the past, but I'm going to have to back him up on this one. It seems common sense that given the number of campaigns aimed at capturing Kiev by different parties (Polish 1013, Polish 1018, Mongol, Timurid, Crimean, German WWI, Polish, Soviet, German WWII, Soviet again...) the identity of the campaigners should be included. I think the date should be included as well. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 20:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Like I said above, we have Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history#Naming conventions. And like I said too, every major city has the same problem of being sacked numerous times by various foes. So there is no reason to invent special rules for Kiev and I say let's follow the suggestian of MilHistWikipedians, who probably slept over the issue much longer than we. `'mikkanarxi 22:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Kiev Expedition (1018) seems quite reasonable if there's a need to disambiguate with other "Kiev Expedition"s, as far as I can tell; using the year avoids messy disputes over the exact names of the parties involved. :-) Kirill Lokshin 14:33, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Is there such a dispute? --Ghirla -трёп- 15:54, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure, personally; Sviatopolk's role in all this isn't very clear from the article, but it could be that the expedition is universally regarded as "Polish" regardless.
(Having said that, from the discussion above it seems that there have been multiple Polish expeditions to Kiev; so adding "Polish" to the title wouldn't help to disambiguate, as we'd still need a date. Unless there's some particular reason why the Polish aspect needs to be indicated in the title, I think we ought to go with the normal naming convention and use just the geographic name and the year.) Kirill Lokshin 16:30, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

We now have four (Mikkalai, Piotrus, Kirill Lokshin, and myself) in favor of moving to Kiev Expedition (1018). Briangotts opposes, and it seems that Ghirlandajo does too. Shall we make the move? Appleseed (Talk) 19:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I oppose, too. There were plenty Kiev expeditions. What about the pechenegs, the polovtsy. You need to be more precise. Wikipedia is not an egocentric Polish schoolbook. Voyevoda 19:42, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
The year provides the precision. Can you explain what about the proposed title is egocentric and Polish? Appleseed (Talk) 19:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I am suprised our esteemed editors from the east are supporting 'Polish something' in the title - usually they are the ones clamoring for removal of 'Polish' part. Why the change of heart?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  23:19, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
No, it's the absence of a specification like Muscovite wars that is highly polonocentric. The Poles obviously think that it is self-explaining to everybody that everything refers to them and that they are the navel of the world. Voyevoda 18:50, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Indeed. --Ghirla -трёп- 07:34, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Let me reiterate and expand my argument: the title does not necessarily have to reflect the content in full exactness. Unlike the "Muskovite Wars" example "Kiev + year" sufficiently narrows down the event. Take a look into Battle of Berezina (disambiguation). Does it really matter that the title must say that it was battle between these and these. I think it is a Russian mentality that forces to use words "elektronno-vychislitelnaya mashina", where an American says "computer". Of course, the Russian term is more exact, but it is totally unusable. Even "EVM" is terrible: you cannot create an adjective or verb from it. `'mikkanarxi 23:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

We now have four in favour of Kiev Expedition (1018), three against. Is this sufficient to make the move? Appleseed (Talk) 19:08, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
No. Voting is evil. Search for consensus. --Ghirla -трёп- 11:22, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was No consensus Duja► 10:56, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Polish Expedition to Kiev → Kiev Expedition (1018) — Concise title with a date to disambig between other expeditions to that city (including more than one by the Poles). Appleseed (Talk) 18:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

Survey - in support of the move

  1. Support per nom. Appleseed (Talk) 18:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
  2. Support, although I would prefer Polish Kyiv Expedition (1018). --Lysytalk 23:49, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
  3. Support. No need for longer name unless there is a disambig problem. We try to put as little info in the name as possible, see manual of style.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  20:55, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  4. Support: I would support Expedition to Kiev (1018) if it is any clearer. We should not use Kyiv under any circumstances; this is the English Wikipedia. The present name is ambiguous with the actual entry into Kiev in 1920. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:28, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey - in opposition to the move

  1. Oppose as the proposed title is less informative. --Irpen 19:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
  2. Oppose. There were many Kiev expeditions: by Andrei Bogolyubsky, by Pechenegs and Polovtsians. We should mention the attacking side in the title, everything else is a Polish attempt to place oneself in the middle of the universe. Maybe good enough for Polish schoolbooks but not good enough for English wikipedia. Voyevoda 23:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
    Voyevoda, may I suggest you vote on the merits of the proposed name and not on your view of my intentions in proposing it? Appleseed (Talk) 01:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
  3. Oppose. Doesn't seem to be an improvement, and less informative. Sounds more like an expedition from Kiev to go explore the wilds somewhere, maybe something like the Belgian Antarctic Expedition a millennium later, only you forgot to put in where this expedition was going. Gene Nygaard 03:57, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
  4. Oppose - likely to cause confusion and less informative.. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 14:40, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments:

What about Polish Expedition to Kiev (1018) if there are other expedition articles? —  AjaxSmack  06:45, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

wiktionary:Expedition is a highly ambiguous word and the first association I have with it is not a military campaign but lots of other things. I think Capture would be a better word. --Irpen 07:06, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I didn't like expedition either but assumed it was a pre-established term. Capture yes, but what about "conquest" as in Polish conquest of Kiev (1018)? I would prefer Conquest of Kiev (1018), Conquest of Kiev by Bolesław I, or something to that effect to avoid anachronistic national labels for events in pre-national eras but I doubt that would fly in the hypernationalism of Wikipedia. —  AjaxSmack  19:07, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I have to disagree with Irpen, "expedition" is commonly used in a military context (e.g.). I don't think "conquest" would work as it implies longevity, and the Poles were there only briefly. In fact, as the article states, "historians sometimes dispute whether Boleslaus entered the city at all". Appleseed (Talk) 19:15, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I am not saying that the expedition is the "wrong" word that is not applicable. The military voyage is indeed one of the definitions of the word but it is not the most common one. "Capture" in the context of the "capture of Kiev" in the title leaves no ambiguity of what this article is about while "expedition to Kiev" may mean a whole set of things totally different. --Irpen 19:22, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I see one Google Books result for "Capture of Kiev", which is about as good as what I think I saw for "Kiev Expedition". I think "Kiev Expedition" sounds better, but I am not dead set against your proposal. Appleseed (Talk) 19:40, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

If you look higher in this page, there were at least four Polish "expeditions", some of which sizzled, i.e., no capture. "Expedition" is quite applicable in military context. There are even quite a few "Expeditionary Force" articles. `'mikka 19:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Again, I am not saying "Expedition" is the wrong term. I am saying it is not the best for the title due to its ambiguity. "Capture" is by far more clear.
Or is it that only ambiguous terms may be used if the Polish side was attacking and only when Poland was attacked the article titles are "invasions" and "massacres"? --Irpen 19:38, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Let's not start this again. Please focus on this article. Appleseed (Talk) 19:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Disambiguation page links

In the article on Boleslaw the Brave/Boleslav the Brave/Boleslaw I the Brave, a link to "see Kiev Expedition" was redirected to the disambiguation page at Battle of Kiev rather than to this article. I disambiguated it, but the Battle of Kiev disambiguation page still has oodles of links to it. Gene Nygaard 16:57, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Originally, Kiev Expedition was a redirect to this article. However, based on our discussions I saw fit to change it to a disambig. I later discovered the disambig Battle of Kiev. It didn't make sense to have two disambigs, so I redirected Kiev Expedition to Battle of Kiev. Your thoughts? Appleseed (Talk) 17:42, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
For now, just remain aware that it's a problem area that needs to be policed every now and then, sending those links to the proper articles. I haven't followed all the discussions, don't know all the potential pitfalls. My main reason for coming here was that the proposed change seemed less informative and more likely to cause confusion than the current name. Gene Nygaard 19:02, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
In that case, may I respectfully suggest you review the discussion so that you're able to cast an informed vote? I believe I addressed all your concerns above. To review, "expedition" is often used in a military context, not just for "exploring the wilds". Also, despite being shorter, the proposed title is more informative than the current one for several reasons. First, there was another "Polish Expedition to Kiev" in 1920 (Kiev Offensive (1920)), so having "Polish" in the title is ambiguous. Second, the parenthesized date provides the necessary disambiguation across the various armed conflicts in the history of Kiev, including the ones in which the Poles took part. Appleseed (Talk) 23:44, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
As someone else pointed out, the problem isn't that expedition doesn't have that meaning, but that it has other meanings as well, so using it for a name isn't all that helpful. Having "Polish" in the title narrows it down to two; not having Polish in the title is more ambiguous. Putting the year there may reduce the "ambiguity" but it will not increase recognizability, won't help someone pick the one they want out of a list. Having both there is clearly one better choice; there may be others that would work as well. I still don't think the proposed name is an improvement over the existing one, so there is no reason to change my opposition. Gene Nygaard 02:23, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Having both there also helps narrow down the meaning of "expedition". Perhaps a change in preposition to something other than "to" is the missing ingredient that would make a better title? How about Polish expedition against Kiev, maybe with dates or some other method of narrowing it down? In any case, that's another reason to oppose it; the "expedition" should be lowercase, since "Polish Expedition" isn't really a proper name used by anybody. Gene Nygaard 02:28, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move (take two)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.


Polish Expedition to Kiev → Kiev Expedition (1018) — We couldn't reach a consensus half a year ago, so let's try again. Reason behind the move is simple: Polish Expedition to Kiev should be a disambig, as the title can just as well refer to Kiev Offensive (1920). It is common wikipedia naming convention to disambiguate military operations by year, not participants name - see also Battle , where titles like Kiev Operation or Kiev Expedition redirect to. Note also Polish and Russian titles on their respective wikis: Wyprawa Kijowska (1018), Киевский поход (1018).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  16:09, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Survey 2

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
  • However, if my suggestion below isn't included then I would support the move. I think that the current title is a bit to wordy and that the proposed title would be better. But I would still prefer the title I suggested below. Kyriakos 22:20, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Did anything change since the last proposal was defeated? Why "expedition"? It was not a picnic. Why not invasion or plunder. Any other reason than the usual one. Changing one bad title for another one makes the situation worse since it makes a false impression that the problem is being addressed. --Irpen 07:30, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Support. Rename per nom. - Darwinek 18:32, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Support. Accurate and concise. Appleseed (Talk) 19:07, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Support per Irpen. //Halibutt 19:12, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
    WP:POINTing again? --Ghirla-трёп- 06:18, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Move to Polish invasion of Kievan Rus. Since Polish editors above are known for advocating Soviet invasion of Poland (1939), this approach would only be fair, wouldn't it. --Ghirla-трёп- 06:18, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
    For the record: "Polish invasion of Kievan Rus" - 0 hits in literature. "Invasion of Kiev 1018" - 0 hits. "Kiev invasion 1018" - 0 hits. "Polish Expedition to Kiev" - ditto. "Kiev Expedition 1018" - 1 hit. "Expedition to Kiev 1018" - 2 hits. "Soviet invasion of Poland 1939" - 200 hits :) -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  12:04, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
    • "For the record", in the lack of the single established name of the article's subject, we go by descriptive names. The proposed name is even less descriptive than the current one since it removes the perpetrator AND continues using an ambiguous word. "Expedition" can be an number of things such as picnic, field-trip, or a research enterprise to discover/describe the unknown frontiers. The current title is bad but the proposed one is worse. Moving from one bad name to another is not an improvement but the opposite. Finally, the 17th century Polish invasion of Russia is called such all around, in books, encyclopedias (even in EB) and in research papers. I hope to see now a push for the name change promoters to rename that article as well. After the successful cleanup of the geographic misnomer terminology there, this step has yes to be accomplished. --Irpen 18:17, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Support (nominator).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  12:04, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose per above. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 12:45, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Discussion 2

Any additional comments:

Comment. I think that maybe Polish Kiev Expedition (1018) might be a good title because it also highlights who the attacker was. Kyriakos 22:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Does not highlight well enough imo, needs to be highlighted stronger. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 12:44, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The purpose of choosing an article title is not to highlight aspects which we, the editors, choose to highlight. Naming is all about finding the most frequently used name in reliable sources. This article has been renamed from Polish Expedition to Kiev to Kiev Expedition (1018) as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 15:41, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

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