Talk:Bohdan Koziy

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Ukrainian?[edit]

Given that this man was born in Poland and never even set foot in a country called Ukraine, why is he described as Ukrainian and not as Polish?

Self-identification.... --Galassi (talk) 12:26, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have a reliable source in which he identifies himself as Ukrainian? Also, given that in the article on Anthony Sawoniuk we have a reliable source which states that Sawoniuk identified himself as Polish but the article does not describe him as Polish, is self-identification of nationality a suitable guide in this article to how we should describe the subject? If it is, should we not change the Sawoniuk article? Varsovian (talk) 12:35, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I personally knew the man. Anyway, we have unequivocal sources that he is in fact a UKe. BTW, do you do anything on UKRwiki? I need some help there.--Galassi (talk) 13:31, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Of the sources, one describes him as Ukrainian, I don't see any that describe him as Polish. The fact that he joined a Ukrainian nationalist organization seems to corroborate the description as "Ukrainian". (Sawoniuk, if we recall, identified himself as Polish after his crimes, in order to avoid being identified with the Nazis, not - as far as we know - out of any genuine feeling of belonging to the Polish nation.) At a time and place where nations didn't correspond to countries, it is of lesser importance (for the purpose of nationality descriptions) to consider countries and borders.--Kotniski (talk) 13:37, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so he is ethnically Ukrainian but also Polish (unless the part of Poland where he was born was not Polish). From my reading of the sources, Sawoniuk also identified himself as Polish before the war, which would mean that the reason given above doesn't seem to apply. Also, do we make judgements about why somebody identified themself as something or just go with their self-identification? Varsovian (talk) 13:56, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just say "Polish born Ukrainian war criminal". It's factually correct and fair. :) Malick78 (talk) 15:05, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Polish born" is still ambigous. "Ukrainian born in what was then part of Poland" would be more precise.radek (talk) 19:35, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Polish born" would be entirely accurate (unless there are reliable sources which say that the subject was a national and/or citizen of any country other than Poland). Varsovian (talk) 19:59, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, no it wouldn't. What does that mean? What's wrong with "Ukrainian born in what was then part of Poland"?radek (talk) 20:03, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Polish-born" means 'born a Polish citizen', just as the subject of this article was. Varsovian (talk) 20:11, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Says who? You? To me "Polish-born" means "born a Pole". Either way it's OR. Again what's wrong with "Ukrainian born in what was then part of Poland" which is about as un-ambiguous and precise as one can get? Or is that actually the problem?radek (talk) 20:13, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We've discussed this before - to me, "Polish-born" probably means born in Poland, but it's hard to know what any particular writer may have meant by using this kind of term, and it's probably best to avoid such phrasings if we can say what we mean unambiguously.--Kotniski (talk) 07:11, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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