Talk:Bob Newton (footballer, born 1956)

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Accident claims/charges[edit]

I've removed the various claims about Newton being convicted of drink driving and causing the death of a teammate for now, in the hope that something can be figured out here. I'm concerned that the subject denies the claims, and that the only source available is the Hartlepool Mail [1]. In particular, the Hartlepool Mail is a local paper with a very small circulation (17,000), so I'm not sure that it is sufficient for these sorts of very strong claims. I've had a look through various news databases to see if I could get a second article from a different source to corroborate this, but I couldn't find any. Which could be for one of a number of reasons - there was a serious mistake in the Hartlepool Mail; the original story is too old to be accessible in most of the archives, and it hasn't been reported again outside of the original account; or the news wasn't big enough to be covered. Thus I'm concerned enough to raise it here and see if there are any other sources available, or if it is felt that the single source is sufficient. - Bilby (talk) 02:03, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

One key would seem to be to look for the guy who died in 1978, David Wiggett. All the sources I've seen in google either parrot the wikipedia article or simply list his cause of death as "auto accident", with no details provided. There's something fishy going on here... I'm just not sure where that fish is. It's unfortunate that someone claiming to be the article's subject poisoned the well by threatening to sue, rather than perhaps shedding some light on the matter. Do the British hide the facts about drunken driving convictions? If not, where can they be found? Is the drunken driving story a hoax? Or is there a coverup going on? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:24, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Google News Archive's great, but I don't think it contains British sources at anywhere near the same level as those from other countries. There are some US sources that indicate he had form for reckless driving while playing over there in quite good sources that confirm the previous incident. Nevard (talk) 04:14, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oh yeah, and there's [2]. Nevard (talk) 04:17, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see details for the other sources, but the contemporary story from the New York Times looks like the smoking gun. That can be cited for both this and the Wiggett article in addition to the more-detailed 2007 article. However, the Times article says nothing about alcohol, so we have to be careful there. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:42, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds sensible. It's entirely possible that the Hartlepool Mail article is just making an incorrect assumption that he was intoxicated in the previous incidents. These were pre-MADD times, when driving dangerously while under the influence of alcohol was not considered to be some great evil beyond that of driving dangerously because you were an idiot. Nevard (talk) 05:23, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've linked both the Times and other article, while low-keying the comments in this and the Wiggett article. It's important for wikipedia to make it clear that Wiggett was not the driver, which is the incorrect impression left by red-link "Bob Newton's" attempt to whitewash the articles. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:32, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have indef semi-protected the article. I don't intend to take any sides on the above discussion but I want whatever the resulting decision to stick. Brandon (talk) 04:28, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, I have no bias either way on the content. I was reverting attempts to spin this article in a positive light by a COI editor. As far as the negative claims, I'm good with whatever ya'all decide.--v/r - TP 13:01, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Here is another count from the Hartlepool Mail about his fatal driving charge. Here is a man who has served nine months in prison, caused a fatal driving accident, done a hit-and-run, going to court as a defendant in 1979, 1981, 1986, and 2007. That is a 28 year long series of crimes, longer than his playing career. Yet this is all summed up with "Off the field, Newton has had several car accidents, including one in 1978 in which his passenger, teammate Dave Wiggett, was fatally injured"? Compare this to Lee Hughes#Imprisonment and Luke McCormick#Car crash and conviction.--EchetusXe 13:14, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The issue seems to be the reliability of the Hartlepool Mail as a lone source. Is there any widely known source coverage of any of these facts, e.g. in the London Times? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:35, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Why would the London Times be interested in the story? It has nothing to do with London. The story probably appeared in national newspapers at the time, but there won't be any online archives to check through. Only people in Hartlepool will be interested in him because he was a big player for them, and still well known in the area today. Here is a Hartlepool forum on the subject of Newton (note the one post mocking this site for failing to mention the incident). This is not a conspiracy or a case of mistaken identity, just a man who is trying to re-write history.--EchetusXe 14:06, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As far as this goes I don't particularly care whether the article shows him as a charity man pillar of the community or as something a little closer to reality. As it stands the article is far too favourable towards Newton (I myself just added the player if the 1980s thing), but I will leave it in the hands of you capable people. The chances of any legal action succeeding are about nil, but the article as it stands is acceptable to me.--EchetusXe 14:34, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I just moved the crash sentence to fit a chronological order. If anything this buries the unpleasant event further into the article, and the prison sentence isn't even mentioned. As I say, as long as there is at least some credibility in the article then I will not push for more detail on the crash.--EchetusXe 14:39, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • If an individual has convictions for dangerous driving, and reliable sources verify that, then mention it plainly and simply. We're not here to scandalise/criticise/judge. GiantSnowman 16:18, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I'm happy with the NYT being used to collaborate at least part of the story. That helps a lot. Having multiple sources for controversial information makes a big difference. :) - Bilby (talk) 08:46, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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