Talk:Blue Horde

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Old talk[edit]

The Blue Horde was not founded by Orda, but rather by Batu, Orda's brother. Orda founded the White Horde. See:

Genghis Khan
Jochi
Golden Horde
The Khans of the Golden Horde & Blue Horde and
The Mongol Khans (includes map showing relative positions of Blue and White Hordes). -- Takwish 18:50, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

More references re location:

White Horde located easterly of Golden Horde [1]
"Over the first quarter of the fourteenth century, a semiautonomous Mongol khanate gradually emerged, known as the White Horde (Ak Orda) and encompassing the Syr Darya region. The khan of the White Horde, who wintered around Sygnak, controlled the steppe northwest of the Aral Sea as far as the Ishim and Sarysu rivers." [2]
" The Khanate of the White Horde of Siberia was established as one of the successor states to the Mongol Empire of Genghis Khan . The first Khan, Orda was the second son of Jochi, the eldest son of Genghis Khan. The White Horde of Siberia occupied the southern Siberian steppe from the east of the Urals and the Caspian Sea to Mongolia." [3]
"The Kazakh Khanate was established on the basis of Ak Horde (White Horde) that had been founded on the 13th century. The main founder of this khanate was Orda Ecen who was the grandson of Jenghiz Khan. Pursuant to the death of Cuci in the year of 1227, Batu Han divided the Golden Horde State into two branches as the right and left wings. He governed the western section of the Country (Ulus) and he gave the Eastern section of the country to his elder brother, Orda Ecen. From that date on, this Country was called as Ak Orda (White Horde). The capital city of this country was settled around the Balkas Lake and then, it was moved to Signak." [4]
"Europe was abandoned and Batu returned to the north of the Caspian Sea. There, he established his capital at Sarai Batu (Old Sarai), and transformed his "inherited lands" into a kingdom, or Khanate. Batu's Khanate became known as the Blue Horde. Batu's two brothers, Orda and Shiban, who also participated in the campaign also formed their Khanates. Orda's Khanate became known as the White Horde, located east to Batu's Blue Horde." [5] -- Takwish 18:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Eastern (Blue) and Western (White) Hordes[edit]

The terminology in the Turkish and English sources is the same. The only difference is some Turkish sources uses "Gök"/"Kök" (eastern) not blue ("mavi" in Turkish) as in English sources. White (western) is the same "Ak" (white). In addition, I checked Encyclopedia Americana article which is written by Edward L. Keenan from Harvard University. There Blue is used for Eastern and White for Western Hordes. However, there was a difference between Russian chronicles and islamic souces (Arabian and Egyptian) (V.G. Tiesenhausen's work in 1884). This difference is explained in B.D. Grekov and A.Y.Yakubovski's state-of-art book "The Golden Horde and its Downfall". The major work were done by Russian scientists (A.Romaskevic and S.L. Volin 1941, B.D. Grekov and A.Y.Yakubovski 1950, G.Vernadsky 1953). On the other hand, the terminology used in wiki-article is not correct. The wiki-article terminology does not reflect the common usage. ~~Actually, maybe it's better to rename these articles as Eastern and Western Hordes, which totally removes the terminology disambiguity~~ (actually there is no such difference between Turkish, Russian and English sources). Regards. E104421 15:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is confusion on this issue among the sources in English, especially on the web. See the references I provided above regarding the relative locations of the White and Blue Hordes. These references may not be in accord with the "common usage," whatever that may be, but they are certainly easy to find on the web. I think this confusion in terminology needs to be acknowledged and explained here, one way or another--both in terms of the color nomenclature used to refer to the Ulus of Batu and the Ulus of Orda, and also in terms of the relative locations of these two domains. If it is not acknowledged and explained, then we're just making it more confusing for people wh use Wikipedia as a resource. -- Takwish 20:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The primary sources sources (English, Russian, and Turkish) uses the same terminology. These are all published references from the experts of the field. Furthermore, the world wide recognized encyclopedia uses the same terminology, too. To sum up, there is no confusion. Regards E104421 20:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have cited (see above) several references on the web (easily found by Googling) that differ with the interpretation that you have presented here. Also, I am having difficulty seeing how the Balkans would be considered as bordering on the Blue Horde if the Blue Horde were the more easterly of the two, and how the capital of the White Horde would have been at Lake Balkhash if the White Horde were the more westerly of the two. I think these things ought to be explained. I'm not disputing the validity of your sources, but the fact that various accesible sources differ on this matter clearly indicates that there is some kind of controversy or confusion going on. I think an acknowledgement of this controversy is essential here, and I think some kind of explanation of it would be very useful. -- Takwish 23:15, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I got your point but please see B.D. Grekov and A.Y.Yakubovski's book "The Golden Horde and its Downfall", this explains the terminology, too. First of all the references i provided, as i mentioned above, are the primary sources written by the pioneers of the field. In addition, encyclopedias uses the same terminology. In short, this is a common usage. However, i checked the sources you provided above. The first one redirects to 1911 encyclopedia which supports the same terminology. The second one is on Kazakh History and based on Russian writings. The third one (reference.com) on uses the data base of the wikipedia which obviously shows the incorrect version, but this will probably be uptaded soon. The other one (allempires.com) is the same. For the others (friesian.com/mongol.htm) and (ozturkler.com/data_english/0006/0006_05_03.htm), i cannot consider them as reliable sources. These pages are poorly written (for the friesian.com/mongol.htm, i do not see any difference, only ozturkler.com differs but in this page there is no naming as eastern horde or western horde). To sum up, i recommend you to check the primary sources. For the geographical settlements of khanates, i'll write this in detail. If you have more questions, you're welcome. E104421 09:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The locations of the Blue and White Hrodes need to be settled, it is uterly confusign to refer to the one farthest from Europe, in Kazahkstan, as the "westernmost" portion of the golden horde" and to refer to the one closest to Europe as the "easternmost" portion of the Golden Horde, especially when you provide locations for the capital etc. -HJC —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.182.154.4 (talk) 20:05, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]