Talk:Berryessa family of California

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The Mexican American Experience[edit]

The ref to [[The Mexican American Experience:an Encyclopedia#this encyclopedia this encyclopedia may or not be a reliable source. Indpt of that q'n, i removed the link to the preview page, which previews the book page in question for a resourceful user, but only sufficiently to relevantly verify that the entry exists. So the Web site is not a valid ref, even if the book is.
It is implausible -- barely conceivable -- that the family or specific members or specific grants were individually mentioned in the treaty, so i reworded to avoid suggesting that they were; if tMAE seems to you to say so, provide us on this talk page with the shortest quote from it that will convince others.
--Jerzy•t 22:27, 24 &01:44, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I tweaked the wording relative to the Treaty of Hidalgo to increase the generality of the Treaty. I was not trying to say that the Berreyesa family holdings had a different legal status from the landholdings of other Californios. Binksternet (talk) 00:11, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Good; thanks! Now i'm curious about an apparent distinction between Mexican grants (and perhaps Spanish ones that were only valid if explicitly continued by Mexico) as opposed to grants held during a period. If the extra words are needed, IMO the reader probably needs to know why.
    --Jerzy•t 01:44, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Spanish grants were concessions - allowing use, but reverting to the Spanish Crown on the death of the user. There was no land ownership. The 30 or so Spanish comcessions were "confirmed" (re-granted) as grants by the Mexican governors. This more for Ranchos of California, and not burden the Berreyesa page.Emargie (talk) 02:01, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I fixed my broken lk (tho the article's use of the lk has, reasonably, been removed). But we have an article on Encyclopedia Africana, and my concern to fix my neglectful lk on this talk page is to invite consideration of one on what may be the Mexican American counterpart.
    (And i probably should have copied the ext lk, which i now fish out of the edit history:
    Meier, Matt S.; Margo Gutiérrez The Mexican American Experience: an Encyclopedia (Google-Books excerpts), Greenwood Publishing Group, 2003, p. 44. ISBN 0313316430
)
--Jerzy•t 01:44, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Even better is this link to page 44. This link has the Berreyesa paragraph, and lists two books as references. I wish I could afford to buy the very expensive Eftimeos Salonites book... Binksternet (talk) 07:50, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Questioning sources[edit]

Discussion brought here from Template_talk:Did_you_know. The hook under discussion is "[Did you know] that members of the Berreyesa family received large California land grants from Mexico but lost most of them to Americans after 1851?"

  • While the hook is sources to a tertiary source, much of the article is Original research in the form of [[extrapolation from primary sources. Examples of this is the use of deposition transcripts (as opposed to a court's findings of fact) as a truthful source and unquestioned use of a statement that according to the book where it is reprinted was originally published in an effort to sway an election. --Allen3 talk 23:48, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sounds like a 'yes' vote to me. Let's discuss improvement to the article on its talk page. Binksternet (talk) 08:57, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I share Allen3's concerns here, though I think Binksternet is making the point that we shouldn't go beyond the DYK rules in clearing something at DYK. Nevertheless, judgement is also supposed to be exercised in not harming WP's reputation etc in taking things to the main page. First the hook: actually, it appears that the tertiary source referred to is actually being cited to support the claim that "pre-existing land grants of Mexican-era landowners had been continued by the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo". I don't see a reliable source for the key claims that (1) the Berreyesa family received large California land grants from Mexico - ie. this specifically named family received these grants; or (2) this specifically named family lost them to Americans after 1851. As to the rest of the article, the material cited in footnotes 3, 4 and 5 are simply not reliable sources. Some others (notes 7, the material quoted in source 8, and possible the citations used in note 11) appear to be primary sources that can be used in only limited contexts. Other sources, however, appear sound. The reason i raise this detail here is that, were one to strip out the material supported by notes 3 to 5, and 7 and 8, not a lot of detail remains. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:55, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, the tertiary source, The Mexican American Experience: an Encyclopedia, is being used to support the hook. The hook, and the article, and the sourcs, claim only that members of the family received grants, not the family as a unit. The sources and the article detail which members got which grants, and describe how in many instances the lands were lost, sold, or stripped of key elements.
  • As for the challenged sources, each of the ones in question, the Berryessafamily one hosted by Comcast, the Directory De Anza one hosted by SFGenealogy and the Descendants of ... Berreyesa one hosted by FamilyTreeMaker are just as reliable as a Wikipedia article in that they list extensive footnotes and sources. In essence, those three sources are serving as tertiary collections of primary and secondary material. Their sources include:
    • Salonites, Eftimeos. Berreyesa: The Rape of the Mexican Land Grant, Rancho Cañada de Capay, 1994
    • Eldredge, Zoeth Skinner. The Beginnings of San Francisco, 1912
    • California Colonization – Frontier Settlement up to 1846
    • Fremont and ’49, Dullenbaugh, Samuel
    • Vallejo, Son of California, McKittrick, Myrtle M. 1944
    • Pioneer Register Index
    • History of California, Bancroft, pg. 306 – vol. 21, Chiles Walker. Vol. 35, Padre Viadez (priest at Mission Santa Clara)
    • History of San Jose, Hall (Berryessa)
    • History of Santa Clara County, Sawyer, Eugene Taylor
    • Saint Mary’s College, microfilm – Brother Denis 1922 (researched by Barney Langan)
    • Los Californios – a society in Willows, California
    • The Pony Express, Stories of Pioneers and Old Trails vol. XXXVI no. 5 no. 425 Sonora, California, October 1969
    • San Jose Mercury News, Wednesday, April 4, 1990, 5B
    • Antepasados, Volume VIII: Captain Juan Bautista de Anza - Correspondence on Various Subjects, 1775, Archivo General de la Nación, Provincias Internas 237, Section 3. Transcribed, Translated and Indexed (with Commentary Notes) by Donald T. Garate. Los Californianos, San Leandro, California.
    • Antepasados II, Bicentennial Issue. Rudecinda Lo Buglio, Editor. Members of the Second Anza Expedition, section II: 3-7. Presidio de San Francisco, 31 December 1776 - Section III: 21 - 32. Los Californianos, San Leandro, California, 1977.
    • Anza's California Expedition, E. H. Bolton. Volume 4, Chapter XX. "Font's Complete Diary." 1930.
    • California History Magazine. "The Story of San Jose, 1777-1869, California's First Pueblo, Part I." Oscar Osburn Winther. Volume 14, page 3. California Historical Society, San Francisco, 1935.
    • The Census of 1790 - A Demographic History of California. William Marvin Mason. Ballena Press, Menlo Park, California, 1998. 75-105.
    • Some Alta California Pioneers and Descendants, 1776-1852. Dorothy Gittinger Mutnick. PastTime Publications, Lafayette, California, 1982; Copyright 1989, Contra Costa Historical Society.
    • Thomas W. Temple Mission Abstracts (on compact disk). Los Californianos, San Leandro, California, 1972.
    • Marie E. Northrop, Spanish-Mexican Families of Early California 1769-1850, Polyanthos, New Orleans, 1976, 1987
    • Santa Clara Mission Records/USC. Lib., F869.S47 S26 Box 1 Micro Film, Burials 10/19/1804 #3216.
    • Gallagher, "Gallagher, Berryessa Family 1776--1957", (Los Californianos - #57).
    • Franki Viviano, "The Lost Paradise of the Californios," San Jose Mercury News/West June 16, 1985.
    • ...and various birth, baptismal, marriage and death certificates.
  • I put the article together knowing that I was at the mercy of the interpreters of these sources, but they all agree on the general scheme of things, and only vary in regard to little things such as spelling and whether a couple had 12 or 13 children. I'm confident that the three listed web sources have correctly interpreted their references. Binksternet (talk) 18:44, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Without trying to judge the bottom line, i note you made my hair stand on end by saying "just as reliable as a Wikipedia article", as if that were enuf! I'm glad you explained what procedures make WP reliable relative to many popular sites, but please try not to hint that WP does more than try hard!
    --Jerzy•t 19:14, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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