Talk:Beatrice Regina della Scala
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Bernabò Visconti[edit]
The assessment of Bernabò Visconti sounds as if it's lifted uncritically from some 19th-century official R.C. source. It lacks nuance.--Wetman (talk) 04:49, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
- In point of fact, Barbara Tuchman listed her sources for the antagonism of Bernabò Visconti towards the Papacy as: Ferdinand Gregorovius, History of the City of Rome in the Middle Ages, Vol. VI, p.408, 1906; Henry Hart Milman, History of Latin Christianity, VIII, pp.14-16, 1867. I believe the assessment to be an accurate one, especially as he did seize the Papal fief of Bologna, he refused to appear in Avignon, he did confiscate ecclesiastical property, and he was excommunicated by Pope Urban V. Even my children's history books describe him as a cruel tyrant. (They both attend Italian schools). However, as to all of the atrocities he is said to have committed, such as eye-gouging, limb-tearing, and the murder of his huntsmen, they could well be exaggeration, which is why I did not place them in the article on Beatrice Regina. It's true that many modern historians are indeed reassessing the characters of history's so-called villains and villainesses, such as Cesare and Lucrezia Borgia, Kings John of England and Richard III; however, I do believe that Bernabò's emnity towards the Church is accurate, and not exaggerated by the Catholic church. Another pertinent fact is that historian Barbara Tuchman was not a Catholic, thus she had no pro-Catholic bias.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:17, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
- Perhaps what rouses readerly suspicion is this sentence which appears to yoke together two quite distinct claims, each in itself entirely plausible:
- Bernabò was a cruel and ruthless despot, and an implacable enemy of the Church.
- When Burckhardt identifies him as an archetypal fourteenth-century tyrant (‘The family likeness which shows itself between Bernabo and the worst of the Roman Emperors is unmistakable’, etc.[1]), he makes his case without reference to Bernabò’s conflicts with the Papacy. (The latter seem to be mostly concerned with a struggle for control of Bologna.) Ian Spackman (talk) 07:54, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- Perhaps what rouses readerly suspicion is this sentence which appears to yoke together two quite distinct claims, each in itself entirely plausible:
- Yes. I believe his conflict with the Papacy to have been a struggle for power, nothing more. He wasn't interested in religious reform or theological issues like Henry VIII. As for his despotic nature; well, my children attend Italian schools, and it's taught in their history classes that tyrants such as Bernabò Visconti symbolised the absolute and ruthless power wielded by the rulers of the medieval, Italian city-states.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:45, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- In point of fact, Barbara Tuchman listed her sources for the antagonism of Bernabò Visconti towards the Papacy as: Ferdinand Gregorovius, History of the City of Rome in the Middle Ages, Vol. VI, p.408, 1906; Henry Hart Milman, History of Latin Christianity, VIII, pp.14-16, 1867. I believe the assessment to be an accurate one, especially as he did seize the Papal fief of Bologna, he refused to appear in Avignon, he did confiscate ecclesiastical property, and he was excommunicated by Pope Urban V. Even my children's history books describe him as a cruel tyrant. (They both attend Italian schools). However, as to all of the atrocities he is said to have committed, such as eye-gouging, limb-tearing, and the murder of his huntsmen, they could well be exaggeration, which is why I did not place them in the article on Beatrice Regina. It's true that many modern historians are indeed reassessing the characters of history's so-called villains and villainesses, such as Cesare and Lucrezia Borgia, Kings John of England and Richard III; however, I do believe that Bernabò's emnity towards the Church is accurate, and not exaggerated by the Catholic church. Another pertinent fact is that historian Barbara Tuchman was not a Catholic, thus she had no pro-Catholic bias.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:17, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
- Having said "lifted uncritically from some 19th-century official R.C. source", imagin my delight to be given Tuchman's sources, Gregorovius 1906 and Milman 1867! Perhaps Wikipedia could in fact offer a more nuanced assessment of Bernabò Visconti.--Wetman (talk) 15:27, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
If you can find a reliable source which paints Bernabo in a more benevolent light, go ahead and add it to the article.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:07, 14 July 2009 (UTC)