Talk:Bear River Massacre Site

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Photos[edit]

Additional photos and/or photo uploads are needed.

HABS photos are not available for this site.
One NRHP photo linked in article is not clearly in the public domain, although if taken by a NPS employee it may be.
New photos would be helpful.

I happen to live about 20 miles from the site of this event. In fact, the photos that you are using are ones that I took with a rather inexpensive digital camera (the photo quality shows when mangnified). I'm curious about what other kinds of photos you would be interested in trying to capture for this site... as there really isn't much here.

I would like to get some photos of the hot springs area that was used by the Shoshoni bands prior to the event, and perhaps get a photo of the survey map prepared by the National Park Service that documented its submission as a historical site. This survey map is in the Utah State University archives, and I've scanned through it for some additional details of the massacre.

Considering that other Indian massacre sites have obtained national monument status, there is an effort on the part of the Shoshoni people to try and preserve the site by some means other than its current semi-protected status. Preston, Idaho is a growing city now officially in a Metropolitan Statistical Area... technically an urban corridor now. In fact the Preston Municipal Airport uses the site as a part of its approach area. Except for the area immediately around the monument that holds enough room for maybe a dozen automobiles, and about 2 acres with a couple of trees right next to the monument, all of the rest of the site is in private hands and used for agricultural purposes. Highway 91 isn't just adjacent to the site, but in fact runs right through the middle of the whole thing. The Shoshoni encampment was actually on the other side of the highway from where the monument is located at. The Bear River has also shifted to the south by about 1/2 mile from where it was when the massacre happened. In theory, the whole site could comprise a couple thousand acres if it were fully developed into a national monument of some sort. Similar areas of Franklin County are now being developed into subdivisions, so I can understand why some sort of protection is sought.

In its current form, there is a whole lot of nothing to photograph besides what is currently on Commons. I could photograph the site in winter, which might have some merit considering that the event took place about this time of the year, as the anniversary of this event just took place. Other than staying on Highway 91, going off road is not something to do unless you have a snowmobile this time of the year in Preston. --Robert Horning (talk) 02:13, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for taking the photos. Please do appreciate u r the only photographer that I have ever given the royal treatment to, in the presentation of the scrolling kind because the pic is really big and wide and nice like that. (And I have probably created 1,000 articles on historic places by now.) Photographs in winter would be helpful, too, especially as you point out that winter photographs have a particular historical resonance. In general, a wikipedia article about a place is enriched by having multiple pictures, lots of them even, which might be organized into a Commons category about the specific place and linked to by a Commons category link. I know that a wikipedian and photographer in New Orleans did a great job along those lines, creating a separate Commons category for each of many New Orleans landmarks. Please, take a snowmobile out and take more pics, and share them! I for one would appreciate it. doncram (talk) 02:17, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

a source[edit]

From the Talk page of California in the American Civil War article, a source that seems very relevant to get and use:

BEGIN QUOTE Generous, Tom. "Over the River Jordan: California Volunteers in Utah During the Civil War." California History 1984 63(3): 200-211. Issn: 0162-2897. Describes the western campaigns of the California Volunteers under the command of Colonel Patrick Edward Connor during the Civil War. Although the Volunteers hoped to fight Confederates, their infantry regiment and five cavalry companies were assigned to patrol the overland mail route between St. Louis and Placerville. Connor hated Indians, and his forces were responsible for several Indian massacres, most notoriously at Bear River in January 1863. In their relations with the Mormons, Connor and his men had political rather than military confrontations, but tensions between the Volunteers and Brigham Young's people were almost constant. The nativism and prejudice of the Volunteers formed a bridge of hostility between the Know-Nothings of the 1840's and the imperialism and Jim Crow era of the 1890's. END QUOTE —Preceding unsigned comment added by Doncram (talk • contribs) 05:06, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I do appreciate this reference, and I would like to incorporate this reference into the main article of Bear River Massacre, at least as an additional reference source. This article isn't so much about the event itself, but rather the physical location and its status as a national historic site. What would be significantly appreciated here would be some references to organizations who seek to have this location designated as a national monument and to have additional levels of protection provided to the gravesites of those who are buried at this location. It is also likely that Highway 91 is going to be expanded through this area in the not too distant future (like I said, Preston is a growing municipality), which may also result in some archaeological studies of the site as this is required by federal highway construction policies. --Robert Horning (talk) 09:59, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Robert -- Thank you for your comments. Not sure what can be worked into this article from what you say, though what you talk about as likely does sound convincing. Glad u may find the above source helpful for the article about the massacre itself. Also, please consider also for your use in the massacre article, the Edwin C. Bearss (January 30, 1990 NRHP text) article which is listed as a source for this article on the Site; it gives an extensive account of the massacre and events leading up to it, and has an extensive bibliography itself. Since it is online, you can review it easily. doncram (talk) 10:45, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That NRHP text certainly is an incredible source of information. It glosses over some of the events a bit more than I would like, but it certainly presents an excellent case for the preservation of this site. There is a general order that was issued by General Wright of the Department of the Pacific (the overall theater commander for the western states during the U.S. Civil War) that I loved in particular and certainly want to work into the main massacre article. This is one text that I did miss when I prepared the main body of text that I added into the massacre article.

I've taken a bit of a hobby to study this particular event, and it has been very sobering to see what has happened. While I live in Cache Valley, I don't necessarily have any vested interest in defending the actions of either the California Volunteers, the Shoshoni, the miners on the Montana Trail, or for that matter the Mormons who lived in Cache Valley at the time. For most of the residents living in Cache Valley, this is ancient history and is largely ignored... and written about as if it was describing a battle between the Romans vs. the Carthaginians. --Robert Horning (talk) 15:03, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is both fascinating and sobering, to contemplate what happened. And darn worth writing about in wikipedia, in my view! (where it meets criteria for notability (it does) and verifiability, and so on) I think you may have meant to apply the wars between the romans and Carthaginians are boring, but if so that is only because we don't know enough about them, and we can make a difference about more recent history, make it more helpful and relevant, by making what is known more accessible. P.S. can you take some detail photos of flowers and such? You dismiss what is to be seen as if u think it is a whole lot of nothing, but I suspect otherwise, maybe some more pics of details would help to convey more of what you do know about the place. I have found that in photographing historic places, that detail pics are often the most helpful. (Relatedly, could you possibly take any pics of Weippe Prairie? It may be far away though. Color pics of camas flowers there are needed for another article.) doncram (talk) 02:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]