Talk:Banu Najjar

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Banu Najjar are arabs they came from yamen —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.138.230.251 (talk) 13:35, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Correct! Clause 31 in the Compact of Medina refers to those members of the Najjar clan who had converted to Judaism. But this was only a minority. The vast majority of Najjar were pagans until they converted to Islam in 622. Muhammad's great-grandmother was a Najjariya.Petra MacDonald 01:37, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

So they're Arabs with Jewish religion? Need citation on this. XoXo (talk) 10:14, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What is the proof that vast majority of them were pagans and not jews? They were mentioned in the charter as jews along with banu harith and banu awf.

Their origin from yemen does not mean they can't be a jewish tribe, as banu harith, banu awf and several other jewish tribes came from southern arabia.

Okay, I was wondering why so many Arab tribes' pages said they were Jewish why they weren't, I guess this is the answer. Saying "the Jews of so-and-so" in the "charter" doesn't mean the tribe itself was Jewish. Banu Aws etc were mostly polytheistic tribes. I think this (just the first 7 pages) summarizes it well enough http://www.urirubin.com/downloads/articles/constitution Dragoon17 (talk) 07:32, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This doesn't really adress anything. There were ethnic jewish tribes even in Yemen that caused many of the invading arabs to have already converted (like Banu Harith) before arriving in Madina, which was a jewish dominated city for the past 500 years. And it is historically accepted that there was intermixing and intermarriage between them due to their alliances. It is impossible to assume that the jewish ethnicity didn't spread among the arabs, especially when they are being identified as Jews. We don't find any mention of pagans in the charter of Madina, or in the entire seerah of the Prophet in Madina that any idols were broken. It is pretty clear that jewish religion was the dominant religion in Madina, even if we assume the arabs were pagans at first, it is proven they intermixed with the jews for centuries and paganism is not mentioned anywhere in the Madinan chapter of Islamic history. It is a bit absurd to assume that the jews of these tribes mentioned in the charter didn't convert, but the 'pagan majority' collectively converted and that's why we find no mention of them. If anything, if there was a pagan presence they would have resisted it even more or at least some would have joined with the Meccans.

That is fine if you believe that, but it is consensus that the Banu Khazraj and Banu Aws were pagan tribes. I'm not sure which sira you're referring to, but assuming it's Ibn Ishaq's it says pretty clearly that Manāt was the chief goddess of the Azdi tribes of Medina. The Banu Najjar of Medina were a clan of the Banu Khazraj, as were the Banu Harith of Medina mentioned in the "charter". I see on Banu Harith that all the clans named "Banu Harith" have been conflated together as though they're the same, rather than separating the Banu Harith ibn Khazraj, Banu Harith ibn Ka'b of Najran, etc, which is adding to the confusion. I will fix that when I get the chance.

Dragoon17 (talk) 18:58, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I dont believe there is any confusion. You find the intermixing between ansari jews and the jews of qurayza, qaynuqa, etc. in one of the wives of the Prophet (saw) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safiyya_bint_Huyayy who had a parent from Banu Nadir, but a grandfather from Banu Harith. Obviously these are the same banu harith mentioned as jews in the constitution. It is pretty clear that the jewish tribes had intermixed with the Ansar. In The Prophet (saw)' arrival to Madina you do not find any evidence of any pagan rituals going on but you do find many jewish habits like the fasting being noticed as soon as the Muslims arrived. 10 jewish tribes of ansaris are mentioned in the constitution of madina but pagans are not mentioned anywhere. Both these things happened before battle of badr so it's pretty clear that the 'pagans' did not even exist in Madina to the extent of forming a community. And can you link me that statement of ibn ishaq? it could just be referring to the ancestral religion of azdi tribes of Yemen who migrated all over arabia and not exactly what was being worshipped in Madina after they migrated and intermixed for 400 years with Jews.

Page 38 of Ibn Ishaq's sira (in English) says: "Manat was worshipped by al-Aus and al-Khazraj". The idol was at al-Mushallal. The Manat-worship of the Ansar is mentioned throughout the ahadith and early Islamic literature (for example: https://sunnah.com/muslim/15/286 https://books.google.com/books?id=pbrjCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA188#v=onepage&q&f=false ) Truth be told, I have never even heard anyone say that the Khazraj and Aws didn't practice polytheism... as far as I know this is essentially a unanimous position. Of course there could have been individual converts and intermixing, but the majority of people within the tribes were polytheists. Again, as I said, the "Jewish tribes" mentioned in the "charter" were not actually majority-Jewish. You're free to believe what you want but I'm afraid this is becoming WP:OR.

The claim that Safiyya is the granddaughter of the Samawal is unsourced both on her page and her mother's page, and the (also unsourced first paragraph of) Barra binte Samawal suggests that there is likely some confusion here too, based on her father's name being "Samawal". I cannot find any reliable sources stating that her father was definitely the Samawal of the Banu Harith, rather than the daughter of a man with the same name from the Banu Qurayza. I'll add a citation needed tag. Dragoon17 (talk) 06:02, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know why someone would add that claim without having any proof, but either way there is no reason to believe there was no intermixing for 400 years between the two specially when there were jewish majorities in both communities. This is not original research cause none of the Islamic primary sources claim the pagans were a majority among the ansar, none of them are reported to be worshipping idols in Madina nor performing any pagan ritual. i am not denying they existed, but they were a small minority. That hadith you mentioned says 'some men among the ansar' and not all. https://sunnah.com/urn/42440 In here it is mentioned there were both jews and pagans among the Ansar, the pagans were just few allied with the leader of the hypocrites who all converted after Badr due to fear of the growing influence of Islam. If they formed a strong majority or community like the Jews throughout Madina, this wouldn't have happened and they would be mentioned in the Constitution of Madina, it makes no sense why the pagans would be excluded from it, especially if were are a majority community. The quote from ibn ishaq is once again a very weak proof for your point. the raid against manat happened far outside Madina, and There are two versions of the account, according to one of which Ali carried out the raid, and quraysh and general arabs are mentioned as worshippers of the Manah not aws and khazraj, this doesn't really prove anything about them being majority pagans, this idol was not in Madina. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_of_Sa%27d_ibn_Zaid_al-Ashhali. The fact is we have no primary source mentioning paganism being openly practiced in Madina, any idol being broken or aws and khazraj being mainly pagans before Islam. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.190.100.250 (talk) 11:32, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the idol itself was located outside of Medina, and the Aws and Khazraj were not the only ones to worship it. But they did worship it, as the source says. I am not sure why you think it is a "weak source", since Ibn Ishaq's sira is the one you are relying upon for the "charter" in the first place and it clearly says the two tribes worshiped her. The hadith you have linked simply shows that Jews and polytheists both lived in Medina, which is indeed the case, as the tribes of Banu Qurayza and Banu Nadir show. The debate was over whether these two Azdi tribes were majority-Jewish, not them. Unfortunately, if you cannot provide any sources that mention them being majority-Jewish tribes, it cannot be included on the site as it is original research. You are free to pursue this topic on your own time, but I have already linked you to a discussion on the "charter" and I'd urge you to read it. Thanks. Dragoon17 (talk) 00:54, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]