Talk:Arnoald

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Untitled[edit]

This Wikipedia article on "Arnoald" need to be merged with this actual Arnulf, the Bishop of Metz. It is the same guy.

Certainly not. It is not the same guy. He may have been the father of Arnulf. johanthon 09:54, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you're right. Case closed. ;o) Sundehul 17:38, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

not so fast, 2007! why, then, is Arnulf "also known as Arnold"? The two were certainly confused. --dab (𒁳) 06:28, 2 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is some confusion in later literature no doubt, but the lists of the Bishops of Metz clearly identify separate people living a generation apart. The Lists of the Bishops of Metz were very probably more reliable than a lot of Bishop lists because they were gone over by Paul the Deacon who as the Wikipedia article on hm states: "wrote at the request of Angilram, bishop of Metz (d. 791), a history of the bishops of Metz to 766, the first work of its kind north of the Alps. This Gesta episcoporum Mettensium is published in Band ii. of the Monumenta Germaniae historica Scriptores, and has been translated into German (Leipzig, 1880)." This history was written a mere 150 years after the two bishops in question and the papers and records of the Bishopric will have been extant. This Bishopric was very important to Merovingian Kings from the time of Sigebert. Villicus was Bishop at that time. He was appointed during the reign of Theudebert, the apogee of the Austrasian kingdom in the 6th century and the king who made Metz something of a royal center in Austrasia. Bishops prior to Villicus (eg Hesperius) are a little shadowy. Following Villicus were (referring to Wikipedia: List of Bishops of Metz) Peter 568?–578, Aigulf or Agilulf 590 or 591-601, Gondulf 591-??? (he was probably only a chorbishop [1]), Arnoald or Arnual or Arnoldus 601–609 or 611, Pappolus 609?–614, Arnulf 614–629 (Arnulfing). Of these, everyone following Peter appears based on nomenclature to have been of one kingroup - the see of Metz was certainly held within such a kin group (that of Arnulf) following his occupation of the see. I think it unlikely that Paul writing at that short a remove from documents still abundant and extant and having access to and the confidence of the Carolingian royal house that claimed descent from one of the two would have erred in the creation of a doublet (That phenomenon usually occurs with Gallic and Germanic Early Medieval or Roman bishoprics where there was an attempt to extend the age of the see back to before the first genuinely remembered historical bishop.) The History of the Bishops of Metz is an important work and it is not likely to be regarded by scholars as being mistaken in the era in question. And it distinguishes the two Bishops as separate men. Additionally the elements of the names of the two men are different . The first is Arnoald (Arn + Wald or Eagle + Ruler/Bold) and the second Arnulf (Arn + Wulf or Eagle + Wulf) The two names are distinct, a fact that will not have been lost on anyone down to Carolingian times however confusing they may seem now.GradyELoy (talk) 09:37, 2 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Arnoald's children[edit]

Hi,

According the article of Arnoald, he is the father of Saint Itta, married to Pippin of Landen and Dode, married ca 596 to Arnulf of Metz. The son of Arnulf, Ansegisel, marries Begga, the daughter of Pippin. This would mean they were full cousins !! If Arnoald realy is the father of Dode, he can not be the father of her husband Arnulf. If you read the article of Itta, Her brother was Saint Modoald and her sister was abbess Saint Severa. No Dode mentioned.Flipje68 (talk) 08:58, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In 1947 Dr David Humiston Kelly following up on the proposed ancestry of Arnulf suggested by J. Depoin in contravention of the traditional Carolingian genealogy proposed that although as Depoin pointed our Arnulf could not be the son of Arnoald, it may have been that Arnoald was still a great grandfather of Pepin of Heristal through Peppin's wife Ittuberga. Moriarity promoted this idea with some additional notes and it was widely published. Kelly went on to his chosen career interpreting Mayan calendars and language and the subject was finally revisited definitively and relatively thoroughly by Christian Settipani in 2002 who agrees in most material respects with Depoin and Kelly but argues out that Arnulf's paternal grandfather was not Bodegisel the elder but rather his brother Mummolinus of Soissons. He also agreed that Arnoald was a great grandfather of Pepin of Heristal but by Arnulf's wife Dode and non Peppin of Landin's wife Ittuberga. Dr. Kelly indicated that he found Settipani's arguments persuasive and had reassessed his earlier position. I doubt very much anyone other than Kelly and Settipani has in recent years done any serious investigation into the matter or presented an alternative argument regarding Arnoaldus and the question of his relationship to the Arnulfings and Pippinids though I would love to see it. GradyEdwardLoy (talk) 11:51, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]