Talk:Armenian–Kurdish relations

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Idealism[edit]

The second "jizyah" tax imposed on Armenians by the Kurdish tribes were obviously not done out of good will, neither were the ruthless attacks in the event that villagers failed to play, so ludicrous idealized wording such as this betrays the tone of neutrality that Wikipedia strives to maintain:

"Until the Russo-Turkish War of 1828–29, there had not been hostile feeling between the Kurds and the Armenians, and as late as 1877–1878, the mountaineers of both ethnic groups had lived fairly well together."

Not to mention, the referenced book page on this topic makes no mention of Armenians and Kurds living "fairly well together", it merely mentions that both groups had come under Russian control. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:E350:9680:E873:798D:D760:4FF (talk) 08:17, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion?[edit]

Why is this page up for deletion? Fedayee 20:38 3 September 2006 (UTC)

There are a few things that need to be added to this article but I don't think it deserves deletion. User:Cool Cat seems to think that its "obvious pov fork." The best thing that we can do is vote to keep it. -- Clevelander 01:03, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see why this should be deleted either. --Davo88 01:06, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The page is neither in accordance with WP:NPOV, WP:NOR. These are a non-negotible wikipedia policies. Page is also not inline with WP:POVFORK. --Cat out 04:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The article itself shouldn't be deleted, but I question the accuracy of it. From my understanding, most of the Kurds fled Armenia during the Karabakh war, and the Yazidis in the West of the country are treated very poorly. The U.S. Department of State human rights report clearly lists the harassment of Yazidis as a problem, so if they truly are better off in Armenia than in other countries it is only in a relative sense. -- Augustgrahl

Cleanup[edit]

I've tried to clean the article a bit. I replaced the bit about Turkey being a foe, which was bordering on being paranoid, to mentioning that both Armenia and the Kurds have suffered persecution under the Turks, a historically verifiable statement. I also added some references and rewrote the blatantly POV section about the Yezidis in Armenia. I think these changes should help to bring the article in line with Wikipedia's policies. -- Augustgrahl

Turkey is a foe for both Armenian and Kurdish nations, because Turkish governments (Ottoman and modern) have tried various ways to eliminate first the former and then the latter from approximatively the same geographic area. In Eastern Anatolia, Kurdish fate would have certainly been the same as the Armenian one if there was nobody watching. --Davo88 02:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm very aware of what the government has been doing, my own family suffered greatly during the Armenian Genocide. However, Turkey is not some kind of "sworn enemy" of Armenia. There are people in Turkey who risk their very freedom to speak out against the government, Orhan Pamuk being the most notable example, so it's not like the entire Turkish nation is out to get the Armenians and Kurds. Augustgrahl 14:41, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, there are notable exceptions like Orhan Pamuk, Fatma Muge Gocek, and many others. But unfortunately, it's a sad fact that Armenia's Turkish neighbours are hostile. The article has much improved since last time I checked. I'd like to thank those who contributed to it. --Davo88 23:31, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This is true, but one should say that relations between Armenia and Turkey are hostile. Saying that they are foes is a very strong statement that can be and was taken as being POV. There's a fine line of diction between truth and bias. Anyway, nobody has actually reverted it back, so I'm assuming it's not an issue anymore. Augustgrahl 01:03, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The article still needs work. Please add references to back up the claims, otherwise it may appear as original research. Augustgrahl 14:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

POV tag[edit]

Are there specific reasons for its addition? Usually they should be stated here on the talk page. —Khoikhoi 18:48, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's okay to take it off now. -- Clevelander 18:51, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"and mercilessly slaughtered them" is not NPOV and not encyclopaedic language. 87.80.230.138 (talk) 18:24, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Islamic conquest[edit]

The article states: "Kurds and Armenians became more and more distinct both culturally and politically as Armenians chose Christianity as official religion and Kurds chose Islam."

However it should be pointed out that the islamic conquest had very little effect on the Kurds, especially in this area. Islam began to spread for real after the 16-th century, this due to the devastation on the Kurdistan crated by the ottoman-persian war. This led the way for the spreading of the nomadic muslim Kurmanjs. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.236.237.148 (talk • contribs) 16:38, 24 October 2006.

Article is biased and hence not inline with wikipedias WP:NPOV[edit]

Article is biased many ways in practicaly every section including lead. A major cleanup is necesary before the tag is to be removed. --Cat out 04:22, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Relations[edit]

Although I am a Kurd and I do not know much about Armenians there is some false information in the article. First off the Map displaying Kurdistan is completely inaccurate as Kurdistan is much bigger then what is shown. Secondly many Armenian forums I have read state that the Kurds and Armenians were both murdered although the Kurdish people had some weaponry. Thirdly only the cowardly Kurds participated in the genocide against Armenians and most Kurds stand firmly against and feel for the victims of the genocide. Hekar 00:51, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Again[edit]

The same text with dubious reliability is added here without any changes. Again the Lacin, Kelbajar are out of Armenia, so irrelevant to "Kurds in Armenia" chapter. Also some npoving and corrections are needed. Andranikpasha (talk) 22:35, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The whole article is, like (it seems) every article connected to Kurds, attrociously badly written, full of half truths and down-and-out lies. Meowy 16:41, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kurdish participation[edit]

This article states that "some sections of the Kurdish population participated in the Armenian genocide". This sentence can be interpreted in multiple ways and is therefore misleading. If it does not have the intention to refer to the Hamidiye-irregulars and the released criminals, I'd like to see a valid, objective source supporting that claim. 82.171.125.22 (talk) 09:51, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism?[edit]

Why were my edits reverted? I still demand a neutral, valid source for that claim. Otherwise I will take matters into my own hands and remove it. 82.171.125.22 (talk) 09:51, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Turkish War of Independence[edit]

In this section it says: "Turkish revolutionaries... fought for total control of all of Anatolia in the Turkish War of Independence, alongside the Kurds," but it does not have a reference for Kurdish involvement in that conflict. The main page for the Turkish War of independence makes no reference to the Kurds fighting alongside the Turkish revolutionaries. Some citation should be required if this is to stay.

BJ Crowning (talk) 20:24, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Kardochois[edit]

I can argue about kardochois That they are actually kurds, Please make a better research before misleading other people thank you WorldHistoryFacts (talk) 16:24, 2 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"alashkert", what's the meaning of this entry?[edit]

Dear User:Zageos21, you keep reverting my removal of this pointless section, even though it only talks about Russian army units being stationed in the Armenian Highlands during their war with Turkey.

You mention in your edit, "The sources clearly talk about it", but what exactly does it talk about? That Armenian soldiers in the Russian Army were stationed there? What's your point exactly? and what does that have to do with the relations between Armenians and Kurmanji/Sorani speakers? No part of my summary was racist, the very kurdish sources on this page say that denomadicization of kurds occurred during the 19th century, and that this was one of the catalysts of enmity between the kurds, who didn't understand how to live a rural lifestyle, and Christians (Armenians and Assyrians). There is a reason why the kurdish word for Armenians and Assyrians even today is "Fileh", meaning "City Dweller" or "Farmer".

If you continue disrupting this page, I will call in admins here to solve these disputes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zahhak1 (talk • contribs) 20:01, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

1. alashkert is the name of the region the massacre took place in. 2. the article is filled with massacres committed by kurdish irregulars and ottoman troops, why would they have anything to do with armenian-kurdish relations but a massacre committed by armenians and russians isn't? 3. the sources i cited say that the massacre was committed by russian troops alongside armenian militias, not the picture you're trying to paint. 4. by the 19th century Kurds were living in the cities that they're living in now. and "Fileh" or "Fele" means "Farmer" not "city dweller". Zageos21 (talk) 21:30, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

1. What massacre are you talking about? Post a quote or a source that accounts for a "massacre" here at all. All you posted is a statement about Russian soldiers moving into the region. 2. Because the kurdish encroachment into the Armenian highlands is a sensitive issue and it's important to document what sparked animosity between indigenous Armenians and the alien kurds. It's important to note of the loyalties of kurd tribes to the Ottoman State, whereas the Armenian militias who you are trying to paint as murderers cooperated with whoever they could in defiance to the kurdish tribes loyal to the turkish Sultan that were out to massacre Armenains. We have sources from Arabs and Turks about the status of kurds to undermine Armenians, there is very little info about Armenians attacking kurds at all. Because it doesn't make sense. Armenians were forcefully disarmed during the genocide. 3. Just like #1, post a single account of an apparent massacre taking place. You glued in Jwaideh's book when it doesn't even bring up the word "Alashkert" at all. 4. Entirely false, Armenians formed the overwhelming majority in the Six Vilayets, and Ottoman census makes accounts of the kurds in these regions being nomads loyal to their Agas. Attempts were made even from the Armenian church to help urbanize kurds, but they refused constantly, took whatever aid they were granted, and fled back to the mountains. As for your correction, that only proves my point; that your nation was not a sedentary agricultural one until recently, meaning nomadic.

I don't think you are here in good faith, especially since you leave out very important details regarding the source you are citing. I will make an edit to your entry accordingly, but I am still going to push for this entry to be removed.

since you mentioned jwaideh's book, I'm gonna quote exactly what he wrote "when the russians penetrated into the Bayazid-aleshkird region in northern kurdistan in december 1914, only one-tenth of the population is said to have survived the fury of the armenian units attached to the russian army." if you want me to continue, he also talks about the massacre of kurds by armenians in rawanduz in 1916, in erzincan in 1917, also in van, Bitlis and mush. and unless you back up your "Alien kurdish nomad theory" that has nothing to do with this subject or article, with a reliable, and unbiased sources, I'm gonna assume you're lying. Zageos21 (talk) 12:17, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, you derail the discussion about hypothetical massacres that never happened. Be on point, where in your source does it say that Armenians had anything to do with the disappearances of kurds in Alashkert? All it says is that Armenians were stationed there. Should we include every instance of army movements in this article too now? I will give you one last opportunity to pinpoint where Armenians had any involvement with the disappearance of those people. Zahhak1 (talk) 03:18, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

what do you think "only one-tenth of the population is said to have survived the fury of the armenian units attached to the russian army." means? you asked for a direct quote from the source and i gave you one, leave it alone Zageos21 (talk) 13:51, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe they died of typhus or something, maybe they had a weak immune system. You added an army movement and make Armenians out to be responsible for their disappearance, this is actual insanity. Zahhak1 (talk) 22:20, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"kurds" under Ancient Armenia[edit]

The claim that the kurds descend from Corduene's inhabitants - a province of historic Greater Armenia (and an exonym for Armenia by the Phoenicinas) - is dubious and it's basis is purely on phonetics. A lot of kurdish history is oral in nature, and they have nothing about Corduene being related to the kurds. The wiki article dedicated to Corduene only suggests that some historians believe that Corduene has a link to the kurds, while other historians don't see a connection at all (since nothing of the Corduene inhabitants is understood). Why is there a section on this wiki page, dedicated to a hypothetical that straight up contradicts itself? There's no accounts of Corduene-Armenia relations to even justify this section being here... this section needs to be removed, the kurdish revisionism here is getting really, really out of hand. Zahhak1 (talk) 22:18, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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