Talk:Argentines of European descent/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Article

This articule is more wrong, only habe white people in the capital of Argentina, Buenos Aires. I'm sorry but what you are saying has no meaning..:S Fercho85 18:30 january 2008 (UTC)

Obviously, you really don't know Argentina. Immigrants came to Argentina through the Capital but they spread out everywhere in the country. Majority of all the Provinces and Cities of Argentina are predominantly White and have a strong connection to their Immigrant past. Why is the biggest celebrations of Argentina's Immigration past are outside Buenos Aires, Oberá and Rosario, Santa Fe? There is more beyond Buenos Aires. Lehoiberri (talk) 17:20, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The census may say that 95% are white (later I'll check in the INDEC index) but it's still a case of hyperdescent. Anecdotically, I have a totally kolla-like friend that aim's to be criollo because he has an spanish grand grand grandfather.

Argentina's myth of being the "Sudamerican White Country" is totally supported by all mixed people, that claim to be white. Nattelsker (talk) 18:55, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

But the majority of Argentines are not descendants of the Criollos, Spaniards who lived in Argentina during the colonial times. Argentines are descendants of immigrants who came during the post-Independence immigration wave. That Immigration wave changed Argentina demographically and that is why it is a White majority nation. So it is not a myth, like you claim. My mother is Argentinian, and her family can trace their roots back to Italy. My mother is not a Criollo, but she is White. Lehoiberri (talk) 20:23, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

"White" Argentine Pop.

While many Argentines are in fact of only European descent, many more are of mixed ethnicity. Some say that according to the Caste sytems, those with a small portion of Amerindian ancestry only count as White. This is true for some, nonetheless, the facts should be shown. Two sources, there are more, indicate that many Argentines have Amerindian ancestry and some also posses Afro-Argentine ancestry. These figures are not in this article. My question is "why not?". The statements about White Argentines being 87-95% of the population is very misleading. Many have Non-White ancestry, and this information is not shown. Does anybody see this hole in the article? Cali567 (talk) 05:33, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

http://coleccion.educ.ar/coleccion/CD9/contenidos/sobre/pon3/index.html

http://www.clarin.com/diario/2005/01/16/sociedad/s-03415.htm

Somes genetic sutudies also says that the Finns have african and asian ancestry. Should we say that the Finland is a "Mulato" country?

The UBA statistic says that have at least one amerindian ancestry does not affect the fenotype necessarily. If you chack the genetic studies, you'll find that there is not 100% pure races. Asian an african ancestries you can find in italians, iberians, rusians, etc. In a in a minimal percentage.

Tahat don't make you mixed race. Look at Cameron Diaz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Diaz), for example. She is white, but she has an cherooke ancestry.

If we’ll talk about “cast sistem”. Remember that “mestizo” is a people with 50% european ancestry and 50% indigenous. Castizo is 75% european and 25% indigenous (more on less). If you have 1,5,3% of ameriendian blood and 97% of european, your’re white. Most of those 56% percent has an insignifican percentage of amerindian blood.

Check that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mestizo)

--Shrewsbury333 (talk) 16:52, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Figures completely wrong

I know the Department of State still gives this more-than-80% figures, but they are today completely wrong. You just have to take a bus in Buenos Aires and will see that at least half of the people is Latino or mixed race. Argentina received almost 4 million Peruvian and Bolivian immigrants in the 90s. --Againme (talk) 18:27, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, "Latino" is not a race; one can be Hispanic or Latino and be of any race (white, black, mestizo, mulatto, asian). Secondly, taking a bus ride through Buenos Aires to determine percentage of white Argentines would be original research. Kman543210 (talk) 18:31, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I'm using Latino with the meaning of "mixed race". As per the bus issue... that is like saying that you have to avoid the obvious because aknowledging it would be original research... Take the word of those who live here.--Againme (talk) 18:53, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

You bother me to bring back this "Argentine are not White" argument. I already experience this from a bad-faith user.

For your information Latino does not mean "mixed race," don't make up your own definitions, ok. Also, Argentines are descendants of Italians and Spanish people, and Italian and Spaniards are not pale skinned, blond, blue eyed Germanic looking people. You tell me to go to Argentina (which I have gone many times b/c I have family their), and you said you live there, I wonder have you been throughout Argentina? Argentines look like typical Italians and Spaniards, with a pinch of Germans, Arabs, Slavs, or Irish in many areas. They don't look like mestizo like many throughout of Latin America. You mention that "Argentina received almost 4 million Peruvian and Bolivian immigrants in the 90s." According to Spanish wikipedia, in the 2001 census, 233,464 Bolivians and 140,000 Peruvian, plus you add 325,000 Paraguayans and 212,429 Chileans which you did not mention, you have in total is 910,893 not the 4 million that you claim. Maybe you are counting the undocumented immigrants in Argentina, which that number is unknown. Lehoiberri (talk) 03:59, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry to bother you, but: The number of illegal immigrants is well known. Argentines do look like mestizos more and more. I'll try to give some sources... Regards --Againme (talk) 12:38, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

This 97% percent that the CIA shows is completely wrong (at leat today). But if you check, most of statistics shows a percentage of white people between 75-85%.

That's the range.

--Shrewsbury333 (talk) 16:55, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Man, I am an European, and I have only been twice to South America, twice to Buenos Aires. I must say that there are evidently some non white people in Buenos Aires, but those 1) are not Argentines but recent immigrants and 2) were a minority.

I thought most of Brazilians were non white (say, some 80 or 90%) but then when I went to Sao Paulo I realised that is true that half of the people there are white. You cannot compare Buenos Aires to São Paulo, Buenos Aires is way whiter than São Paulo. However I've never been to the Argentine countryside.

Remember also that most of the people who come here saying that Argentina is not white through their whiteness and almost first world conditions gain an advantage over the other peoples of America. This people have an agenda.

To say that Argentina is not white because it has recieved non white migrants is the same as to say that the United States and Canada are not white any more. Argentina is the whitest country in Latin America after, perhaps Uruguay and Canada. However, the United States and Canada have greater porpotions of blonde people if that's what you mean by white. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.180.187.81 (talk) 15:56, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Of course the USA is no longer white... How you been in NYC lately? People spoke more Spanish than English... --Againme (talk) 17:39, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Last Census

Can you establish a link to the last Argentinean Census?--83.35.181.1 (talk) 21:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Middle Eastern people

Are not white they are arabs. Semites. Non Europids and Caucasoids. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wis (talk • contribs) 14:51, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Look at this

There is no exist a ethnic group called "White Argentine", this article looks like a original research. In this link you could see why these article was erased in spanish. [1]--82.59.194.81 (talk) 22:36, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Joshua Project

Is it a reliable source to be used in WP? Kavas (talk) 15:09, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

The place to ask this is here: WP:RSN HupHollandHup (talk) 17:25, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

on Joshua Project

Hello, Kavas; I'm Pablo Zeta from Argentina. I'm the one who's rebuilding the article "White Argentine" Joshua Project is a reliable source -at least to me- for it gives very detailed info on ethnic groups. I am doing a research on the different races and I'm loading the data from the JP on an Excel grid and it gives me similar results to those of the CIA Factbook or Worldstatemen.org. For example, the CIA Factbook states that the US have 79.9% Whites and 12.8% Blacks, and after summing up all the "white" and "black" ethnic groups from the JP the result was 77.8% Whites and 14.1% Blacks. The same with Argentina; World Statesmen.org states 86.4% Whites + 3.3% Arabs, and my calculation results were Whites 82.9% + 2.9% Arabs. The same happened with Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Canada, Costa Rica, Puerto Rico and other countries; there may be variations of 2-3% on the percentages, but the results are surprisingly similar to those of another sources. --Pablozeta (talk) 03:13, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Jews?

It's been a long time since I edited this article, and it has transformed nicely. Nice work Pablozeta. I've been noticing this article and one thing has been bothering me, the lack of mention of Jews in the article. Argentina has well-known famous Jews throughout it history, and it'd be nice to see some mentions of famous Argentinian Jews. We have Juan Gelman, Jorge Guinzburg, Daniel Barenboim, Cecilia Roth, Lalo Schifrin, Cesar Milstein, Miguel Najdorf, Mauricio Borensztein, Horacio Verbitsky, Samuel Gelblung, Ernesto Tenembaum, Jorge Telerman, and so many more. Anyways, keep up the good work. Lehoiberri (talk) 05:00, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I didn't forget the Argentine Jews

Hello, Lehoiberri. Thanks for the complimment. I'm Pablo Zeta from Argentina, the one who is rebuilding this article. I saw your interventions in the talk page of the article, and you defended the real -although decreasing- majority of Whites Argentines with strong evidence. If I am not wrong, your mother is a countrywoman of mine, isn't she?

I just wanted to tell you that I didn't forget the Argentine Jews: I already mentioned them in the History section (In the great immigratory wave in general, and Jacobo Timmerman as a victim of the military dictatorship), and in the Culture/Music/Folklore section. I also added them in the "See also" section at the bottom. In the Entertainment section they will have a very special mention (Tato Bores' photo is already inserted); and I plan to add another section named "Journalism" where they will also appear. You are invited to help me with more osbervations like this or any data you may provide.--Pablozeta (talk) 19:30, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia: No original research

The problems with this article are: a) there is no exist a ethnic group called "Argentine-white"; b) the information could be included in Demography of Argentina and Immigration in Argentina. This article mixed spanish, germanic, anglo-Saxons, slavs, mediterranean, jews, arabs, etc., whom have indeterminates degrees of mixture with Amerindian populations. No one doubts that the vast majority of Argentines are european ancestry, but don't belong to an unic ethnic group.--95.247.81.58 (talk) 18:43, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

In fact, genetic research (by University of Buenos Aires) found that nearly 60% of Argentines had mitochondrial haplogroups characteristic of the native populations. While only 36% of the population exhibits both Amerindian lineages, may be European, Asian or African. Look at this: [2]--95.247.215.62 (talk) 22:28, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Reply to the Unknown User

Hi, I'm Pablo Zeta from Argentina; from what you wrote here, I deduce three things: 1st) English is not your mother tongue, probably you are a native speaker of Spanish. 2nd) You probably are the same guy who wrote previously in the discussion page under the IP 82.59.194.81. 3rd) You use to edit WP because you know about templates, but maybe you do so in some other language.

There is no original research in this article. What happens is that -since Afro-Argentines and Amerindian-Argentines already have their articles in both WP in English and Spanish- I am expanding an existing article on the White population of Argentine. It is simple as this: some people wrote about two minorities in Argentina, now I am writing about the majority.

No one said that ehtnic Spaniards, Italians, Germans, Slavics, British and Ashkenazi Jews are a single ethnic group, but they share a common European heritage and a common Caucasian phenotype that melted in these pampas and gave shape to a great proportion of nowadays Argentina's culture and demgraphic profile. Arabs' phenotype is a little darker than Europeans' phenotype, but many definitions of White people include the original peoples from North Africa and the Middle East.

Some Argentinians and other Latin Americans have read this article and none has made any objection. A Mexican nicknamed Marrovi, a US Hispanic of Chilean/Argentine descent nicknamed Leihoberri, and an Argentine nicknamed Shrewsbury333 even have praised my work in this article. Please, next time you want to place a template, first create an account -they are free- and contact me in my talk page, and maybe we can get something good out of this difference of opinions.--Pablozeta (talk) 02:58, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Unknown User2

I have certain things to answer:

1) The study mentioned in the article that you provide as source is already mentioned in the Genetic Research section. The whole section had been erased by other wikipedist once and I restored it, for I considered it was important to keep the article's neutrality. Check the article's history if you don't believe me.

2) The same study states clearly that only a 10% -of the 320 samples, not of all Argentinians, by the way- had Amerindian ancestry in both mtDNA (maternal lineage) and Y-Chromosome (paternal chromosome), so only that proportion would be "pure" or nearly pure Amerindians. Of the remaining 90%, a 44% would be "pure Whites" and a 46% would have some Amerindian ancestry by maternal lineage, without stating a real percentage of that Amerindian contribution. The result of that study has been misinterpreted so much, that I have had to explain this many times; it does not imply that there is a 46% Mestizos in Argentina. A Mestizo is a person who has about a 50% White and a 50% Amerindian contribution in his DNA, and this is not the case of that 46% of Argentina's population. As it is explained in the Genetic Research section, a person with six or seven European great-grandparents and one or two Amerindian/Mestizo grandparents will be classified into the 56% although his phenotype will most probably be Caucasian, or "White". It is the same case of the study conducted in the US that showed that a 30% of White Americans had some Black African ancestry; it does not mean that a 30% is "Mulatto".

3) I have a more recent study -which I did not get to add to the article yet- conducted in 2009 by Daniel Corach (the same who led the study that you cite) in which the Amerindian contribution in the mtDNA was a little less than in 2005: 53.7% instead of 56% and the European contribution in the Y-Chromosome turned out to be higher: 94.1% instead of 90%. Besides the autosomal markers show an European predominance once again: 78.6% against 17.3% of Amerindian contribution. Here the link: How Argentina Became White

4) The best way to know percentages of contribution is to conduct studies of genetic admixture, and these studies done in Argentina always show an European contribution that far surpassses 75%. Although they are cited in the same Genetic research section, I bothered to provide you a direct link here Genetic Admixture in a population sample from a Hospital of Buenos Aires.

If you still think the article contains original research, please, stop placing templates. First create an account with a nickname -so we can address each other with a name, not a number- and contact me in my talk page or in the discussion page of the article, telling what statement you consider original research -I check and expand the article almost daily-. Maybe we can get something good out of this difference of opinions. --Pablozeta (talk) 13:56, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Dear Pablo, remember: wikipedia is the Free Encyclopedia. If anyone think this article contains original research and this information could be part of "demographics fo Argentina" or "immigration in Argentina",they can say it. Even if they don't have an account. In fact, "white-argentine" is not a ethnic group and this article talks about european immigration. Maybe you could merge these articles ([3]-[4]), don't you think?--95.245.17.85 (talk) 14:11, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Defense of White Argentine as a separate article

Maybe you don't understand; I'll explain it once again.

1) This article is about the White people of Argentine. Afro-Argentines and Amerindian-Argentines already have their articles in both WP in English and Spanish, so now I am writing about the majority group. Those articles speak about clusters of ethnic groups: the Amerindians all together (including Guaraníes, Tobas, Aymaras, Quechuas, etc) and Black Africans all together (including Angolans, Caboverdian Mulattoes, Yorubas, etc). So, I'm doing the same with all the Argentinians with a majority of European ancestry.

2) I don't plan to merge this article with Immigration to Argentina because here I want to focus on the European/Middle Eastern immigration only.

3) Besides -maybe you didn't read the whole article- this article is not only about immigration; I dedicated an important section to the different waves of European/Middle Eastern settlement to explain where the White people of Argentina came from. But there is much more to tell about the White people in Argentina: their influence on our language, music, culture, science, entertainment,etc.

4) The "White Argentines" is not an ethnic group that I have invented. The descendants of the European immigrants mixed in such a way among them, that now is quite difficult to separate Italo-Argentine from French-Argentines, etc. I am a big mess of European ethnic groups myself; I have Italian, French-Basque, Spanish and Criollo ancestry all together. What am I? I am a White Argentine. For example, The Joshua Project, a site that is specialized in ethnic groups, names this group Argentinians White or Argentino Blanco in Spanish, and states that we number about 29,031,000 (72.3%). It also provides a photograph as example, and it shows a White woman. I assume that your mother tongue is Spanish, so here is the link to the Spanish version of the page; if you speak other language, click on the flags at the top and change it. Grupos Étnicos de Argentina.

5) Finally, in this wikipedia there are many articles devoted to the different White communities scattered around the world: White Americans, White Brazilians, White Mexicans, White Cubans, European Australian, etc. I don't see a reason why there shouldn't be one article about the White people of Argentina.--Pablozeta (talk) 22:50, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Pablo, if you are only interesed in the european/middle eastern immigration, you could rename this article European and middle eastern immigration in Argentina. But, don't invent an "ethnic group" that doesn't exist. There is a little difference with US and Brazil, even if don't exist a ethnic group called "White brazilians", they socially use this name to designate the people of different european origin in opposition to black people. Nevertheless, in Argentina don't exist this use, maybe because most people have an european origin (more or less mixed), and it's not necesary make this difference. Finally, about mexicans and cubans, two in distress makes sorrow less?.--95.247.131.174 (talk) 21:02, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Maybe you don't understand:

1) This article IS NOT ONLY ABOUT IMMIGRATION. As the template on top reads, the article is in expansion; there is much more to tell about the White people in Argentina.

2) I already provided the link that proves the existence of an ethnic group named "Argentinians White", and I already explained the reason for that name, so it is evident that you don't want to understand. As we say in Spanish: "there is no worst deaf person than the one who doesn't want to hear" (No hay peor sordo que el que no quiere oir).

3) In Argentina the term is used to differentiate people with Caucasian phenotype (even if they are not "pure", because we don't apply the one drop rule) in contrast to the Amerindian-Argentines, the Afro-Argentines, and those who have mixed White-Amerindian ancestry (Mestizo).

4) I don't want edit warring, but if you keep on placing templates, I will keep on removing them.--Pablozeta (talk) 22:12, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

You are contradictory. On one hand, you acknowledge there is no official use in Argentina, because the argentine government did not recognize any group as "white Argentine". Unlike what happens with the amerindians and afro-descendant. On the other hand, you insist on its use without proves, based only on a not academic web-site and a confusing use of the term "White". Finally, it seems that you are just showing your own personal research. In fact, I understand you, you think there is a ethnic gruop called "W-A", and you are doing´a research to prove it. Actually you are doing a great job, but it is your "Original Reseach". Sorry.--80.117.231.232 (talk) 21:46, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Even worst, this site is not only an unscientific web, but it is a religious site [5] and you wrote this text.[6] You use as a reference a text made by you. It's not against policies of Wikipedia? Don't you think?--80.117.231.232 (talk) 22:01, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Several points in which you are wrong:

1) I never said the term "White Argentine" was used by the Argentine government, or it was official. The term is used in common speak to refer to those of predominant European ancestry.

2) The Joshua Project provides information on ethnic groups for missionary purposes -I never hid this fact, see the Estimates section- and the data it provides come from many international sources: Joshua Project datasources.

3) When I first visited the site, the ethnic group "Argentinians White" already existed, and the photo shown as example was already included by the photographer Howard Erickson. The only thing I added was the text, becaused the group profile did not have one. If you don't believe me, contact the Project and ask them.

4) Anyone can collaborate with the Project; I also provided them an article as source so they added the Caboverdian Mulattoes to the list.

5) I did not created the article on Wikipedia either; it was already created on 14 June 2007, and I first edited it on 13 April 2010. Check the article's history, and you'll see how many other wikipedians had already edited the article before I started to expand it; some of them have congratulated my work on it.--Pablozeta (talk) 22:42, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

In fact, the "White Argentineans" exist

The ethnic group white in Argentina is not an invention of wikipedist PabloZeta - this in fact exists. The immigration from Europe and Middle East occurred in the past, but the comsequences of that immigration is clearly evident nowadays in Argentina, in every aspect of daily life - music, culture, entertainment, etc. I invite the person who says that the Argentine White article contains original research and criticizes the existance of the article, if he has the chance, to find an Argentinean, and ask him "What ethnic group are you from?" and unless he is evidently from Mestizo or Indian origin, he will tell you "I'm White". The article indeed only describes the characteristics of an ethnic group, which really exists, and their impact in Argentine population and nowadays life.

Trying to understand the reasons why the user "80.117.231.232" criticizes the article, I only can think in the chance, that he considers the article "racist" - he probably thinks that the article glorifies the whites in Argentina and understimates the other ethnic groups. Far from truth. There is not anything racist in the article, it is absolutely impartial, and if 80.117.231.232 reads it attentatively , he will realise that criticizes racism, and even criticizes "The Myth of the White Argentina". Not all Argentineans are white. There are (Thank God) thousands of person from other ethnic origins. But no less of 75% of us are white, and THAT IS A FACT. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rusoargentino (talk • contribs) 21:30, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

There is no doubt about the massive European immigration in Argentina, and no one talking about "racism". The problem is another one, there is no exist a ethnic gruop called "White-Argentine". In Argentina there is a lot of people with europeans origins, but they belong to different ethnic groups: germans, slavics, jews, arabs, scandinavians, spaniards, italian, anglo-saxons, etc., do you understand? The only evidence presented is the religious web site (not scientific) in which he works. It is not enough.--79.47.219.164 (talk) 00:51, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't really have an interest in getting involved with debating this issue. However, here are some sources that I quickly found, that may be of some assistance ... 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.   Redthoreau -- (talk) 01:09, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

The problem is always the same. Maybe exist the "classification" "White Argentinian" (as a social gruop), as exist "America women"[7], "German blonde"[8] or "Blue eyed people"[9], but that doesn't mean the argentinian of european origin are an unic ethnic group. Pablo try to prove they really exist as a different ethnic group (and there is no one prove to confirm this, we only now the Argentinian State don't do it), and it's fair, but this is Original Research. In other words, he use this space to show his theories and use as a "reference" his own texts.--79.47.197.209 (talk) 00:05, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

The melting pot of European immigration in Argentina created the "White Argentines" and their culture.

This discussion is going round and round in circles without going anywhere. This is because "the mysterious unknown user" -who apparently has six or seven PCs at home, judging from all his IPs- does not want to understand a process that was the same in all the countries with massive European immigration and settlement, such as Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil, United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

In all those countries, the first generations of newcomers first mated within their own ethnic group/collectivity (ethnogamy); but after the second generation they began to intermingle outside their collectivities and to acquire the culture of the receiving country, and so they partially lost their original language and culture to form a new one. Thus, the culture of the Spanish, Italian, German, British, Slavic and Arab immigrants melted with the Criollo culture and, since all of them shared a common European heritage, they formed a "White Argentine" culture that became mainstream (somehow sponsored and boosted by the ruling elite), so it is not perceived as a separate "White" culture. As I explained above in this page, the 2nd generation of European immigrants and their descendants began to intermingle outside their collectivities in such a way, that most Argentineans today are of almost entire European ancestry, but from different origins, so it is impossible to separate Italo-Argentines from Spanish-Argentines, or French-Argentines, or Irish-Argentines, etc, etc, etc. If I wanted to apply for a European citizenship, I have three or four to choose, for I have Italian, French, Basque and Spanish ancestry. So, what am I? an Italo-Argentine? A French-Argentine? I am all of that: I am a White Argentine.

The same happened in the US; all the different collectivities melted in what the US Census Bureau labels as "White American" people. Although there the Anglo-Americans formed the ruling elite for some time, now any White American has more than one ethnic origin, not being possible to separate Anglo-Americans from Irish-Americans, or Italo-Americans, or French-Americans, or White Hispanic Americans, etc. And this also happens in Uruguay, Canada, Australia, etc.

As RedThoreau has proved with all the links he provided, for any foreign witness or researcher, the White population of Argentina is labeled in English as "White Argentine" or "White Argentinian". And this article is precisely devoted to them: the White population of Argentina.

Besides, in the web there are many sites that name the ethnic group "Argentino blanco", not separating by European collectivities, but clustering them under the label "White". Here are some examples: Argentinos gringos - Argentinos blancos Argentinos blancos y europeos. Although these are links from common, "non-scientist" sites, they reveal how many Argentines see themselves as "White Argentines"; and what causes an ethnic group to exist is self-recognition (autorreconocimiento in Spanish) among its members, isn't it? --Pablozeta (talk) 04:03, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I give you an example. In US, The Census Bureau use Asian american to describes the people with Asian origins, ok?. But, we know "Asian" is not a "ethnic group", beacuse include many different ethnic groups. If they aren't an ethnic group, why exist this article as one? Simple, because "Asian" exist as a officialy race category in US. Unfortunately, this is not the case in Argentina, in Argentina no body offically recognize the people who seems white as a ethnic group. You feel your self "White Argentinian", and it's fine is your opinion, in my opinion you are just an "argentinian" with european origin, and it's fine too; but this is not the problem. In fact, the answer is in your own words, when you explain the process of cultural mix of immigrants in Argentina, you are only explain how is formed the argentinian nationality. Moreover, many of these people can be perfectly "mestizos", and not really "white". I'm sorry, but an ethnic group doesn't forme in one generation. Finally, to blogs don't prove nothing. --79.47.197.209 (talk) 00:39, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

White Argentines are a real "new" ethnic group

I've already explained this; I'll explain it once again.

1) Let's go to semantics: "White" refers to White people (If you still don't know what that means, follow the link), and "Argentine" refers to being born or residing in Argentina. So, this article is about the White people of Argentine, ok? This concept includes all those with "pure" European/Middle Eastern ancestry, and those who may have a little portion of Amerindian/Mestizo ancestry in their DNA, BUT WHOSE PHENOTYPE IS CAUCASIAN. Those whose phenotype is Mestizo (i. e. the visible Amerindian contribution in their DNA is about 50%) are not included in this article, although they most probably will share their culture with White Argentines, because this has become mainstream (as it is already explained in the article).

Ok, you recognize an indeterminate number of your "white argentine" is mestizo, because his phenotype seems caucasian? But they are not white, am sorry.--79.41.56.10 (talk) 23:21, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

2) As I already said Afro-Argentines and Indigenous peoples in Argentina already have their articles in both WP in English and Spanish, so now I am writing about the Whites. Those articles beforementioned speak about clusters of ethnic groups: the Amerindians all together (including Guaraníes, Tobas, Aymaras, Quechuas, Mapuches, etc) and Black Africans all together (including Swahilis, Xhosa, Yorubas, Caboverdian Mulattoes, etc). So, I'm doing the same with all the Argentinians with a majority of European ancestry (including descendants of Italians, Spaniards, Basques, French, German, British, Slavics, Arabs, etc).

No exist a ethnic group called "Amerindio-argentinian", there are differents ethnics groups indigenous. I understand what are you doing, you are show your own personal research and your personal ideas about argentinian people. A German, an Arab or a Slavic don't belong to the same ethnic group, it's so hard to understand? And, they don't become "one ethnic gruop" only beceause born in Argentina. You may perfectly called this article Argentinian with european origins or something like that, but you are obsessed with to be recognized as a "White nation". --79.41.56.10 (talk) 23:21, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

3) The melting pot of immigration really formed a new ethnic group, with elements inherited from all the other European ethnic groups. White Argentines don't speak neither Castillian Spanish nor Italian, nor French; they speak Rioplatense Spanish, a new variety formed during the years of immigration, and heavily influenced by the entonation patterns of the Italian language's southern dialects. The same with their culture: Food, for example combines Criollo, Spanish, Italian and German dishes. Whether you like it or not, White Argentines are a new ethnic group born in this Pampas out of European immigration, so it mantains its European flavor. And, of course, it wasn't formed in one generation; the process took more or less four generations, from 1850 to 1950.

You are right in one point, all these people have developed a new culture and speak a new dialect (in fact, you don't speak a real spanish). Influenced by the different immigrant communities. But this new group is practicly all the people of Argentina, even if you are "mestizo" a "cabecita negra", you are the same culture and speak the same lenguage. --79.41.56.10 (talk) 23:21, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

4) The blogs prove a feeling of self-recognition, of belonging to an ethnic group. And you forget all the links that RedThoreau provided, that prove that White Argentineans are seen as a separate and distinct ethnic group by researchers and outsiders. Sometimes, certain things can be seen more clearly from a distance than from the inside. I asume that you are Argentine or Hispanic, and maybe your perspective from the inside of our society does not let you see what is evident for any outsider witness.

Blogs are not considered a valid source, unless was made by an author or organization academically recognized. The links provided by RedThoreau don't prove that White Argentineans are seen as a separate and distinct ethnic group, am sorry. Only prove that this name is used to say people with europeans origins, but don't say nothing about their ethnic origin --79.41.56.10 (talk) 23:21, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

5) There is a book that names White Argentine as a distinct ethnic group. Here is the link: Argentine People by Ethnic Or National Origin: Afro Argentine, List of Argentine Jews, White Argentine, Asian Argentine, Slovene Argentines. And there is also a book of Argentine sociology written by José Ingenieros that mentions several times the argentinos blancos. Here's the link: Sociología Argentina. And here goes another one: Antisemitismo en Argentina I will provide more sources, and "the unknown User" will have to admit the existence of the White Argentines.--Pablozeta (talk) 02:34, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Finally I admit exist white people in Argentinan, in fact I have never doubted, but they aren't a ethnic group separated from the rest of the argentinians. If you exist as a ethnic group, all of you belong to same one, and they are called simply "argentinians" (white and "mestizos" together). You said your reasons, I explained mine. Let other users think about it, and say their opinions. Meanwhile, don't remove the warnings about neutrality and original research. Don't forget that this article was deleted from the Wikipedia in Spanish, because the arguments offered by the argentinian users. See you.--79.41.56.10 (talk) 23:21, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

It is far more common in english-language sources to speak about "white" populations than in spanish-speaking literature. Factbooks and statistics around the world tend to classify the mainstream Argentine ethnicity as "white argentine". Albeit uncommon in Spanish, this notion is quite common and far more acceptable in eng-lang based sources. Take a look at the "ethnic" classifications for most countries (including the vastly diverse "White American" concept). Salut, --IANVS (talk) 23:28, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Look at this "Ethnic groups worldwide: a ready reference handbook, Autor: David Levinson, Editor Greenwood Publishing Group, 1998, ISBN 1573560197, 9781573560191 maybe serve to resolve this matter. --79.41.56.10 (talk) 23:35, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, this is a single source categorizing "European-Argentines". But this definition takes away from the mix the Arabs and Caucasians, which are usually considered along with the Europeans. In fact, in the source you brought they are neither considered as Asians (along with East Asians, and that would be absurd), neither as a distinct group. They are simply not taken into account. Not a very reliable source.--IANVS (talk) 23:45, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

BTW, to simply identify the euro/middleeastern/caucasian mix in Argentina as an "Argentine ethnicity" would obliterate Amerindian, Asian and Afro ethinicities in Argentina as "non-Argentine" ethnicities. To classify a mainstream ethinicity as one more distinct ethinicity do some justice to the minorities. Salut, --IANVS (talk) 23:38, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Why would this article cause hostility?

This article is called White Argentine, and thus the fact that the country is being filled with illegal immigrants from Peru, Paraguay and Bolivia does not change the fact that the vast majority of Argentines are White. Those immigrants are more than 10% of the inhabitants of Argentina nowadays, and most are in Buenos Aires. But they are not Argentines in any way, they are exactly that: foreign immigrants.

Please take some time to read about European immigration in Argentina. In 1895, Italians alone were 12,2% of the total population. In 1914 one fourth of the population was European. Nearly seven million Europeans immigrated to Argentina since the beginning of the nation to 1940. That is without counting the Arabs and Northern Africans, who may be considered White by some standards. Seeing these facts, I don’t understand why anyone would be surprised at Argentina’s White population. Finally, I really don’t understand why anyone would oppose to the creation of an article for White Argentines, if an article for Amerindian and African minorities already exist without any troubles. Isn’t the majority actually more representative of the nation?

Honestly, I believe that those people (if there is a variety of people because sometimes it seems like it was the same individual) are ideologically-biased, because no one that truly knows Argentina would say that it's not a White country. And even if it was not, the White community would nonetheless deserve an article.

190.247.117.68 (talk) 20:42, 2 November 2010 (UTC)Zerux190.247.117.68 (talk) 20:42, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

This article is not meant to make a reductionist difference between "white" Argentines vs. "non-white" immigrants to Argentina. Or, worst, "illegal" immigrants. That would be a quite unencyclopedic and uninformed generalization. Salut, --IANVS (talk) 23:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Tango, Sports and Rock & Roll

I fully understand the idea of describing the influence of the" White Argentine" in culture and sport, but these paragraphs are too long. Can you make a summary? The article is not about music and sports. See other similar articles.--79.47.219.115 (talk) 18:17, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Anonymous User

Unless you cannot prove here at the talk page your multiple claims about OR, reliable sources, etc., you are commiting WP:Vandalism. You have not reach consensus here, in case you didn't know. Salut, --IANVS (talk) 23:29, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

As an outside observer (a newbie contributor who just finds this discussion of interest), can I point out that what 'anonymous' is doing isn't vandalism. This is a content dispute, where both editors appear to be trying to improve Wikipedia. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:39, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

As long as anon user cannot reach consensus regarding his claims, his edit warring is vandalism. See how WP is edited. Salut, --IANVS (talk) 23:43, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

That is not what it says at WP:Vandalism: "edits/reverts over a content dispute are never vandalism, but edit warring". And a single person cannot reach a consensus - this is an agreement between people. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:55, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Ok, this is edit warring. You are right. The same penalties apply--IANVS (talk) 00:04, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't look like an edit war either, from the article history. Or if it is, both parties are equally involved, as far as I can see. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:17, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

As far as the anon editor didn't reach consensus and continued to repeat his editions over and over again, against more than other 3 eeditors, failing to convince any of them of the validity of his rationale, he is warring against the consensus. BTW, he already violated several times this policy. Salut, --IANVS (talk) 00:30, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

The Myth of White Argentina

Befeore proceeding with your personal reserch, please read and consider that:

The myth of Argentina as a white country pervaded the state-sponsored discourse on race and effectively precluded Argentines from adopting even a self-serving and romanticized view of subordinated ethnic groups. The turn-of-the-century elite not only created this myth but also succeeded in exporting it abroad. Even today, some English language reference works, such as the Columbia Encyclopedia and CIA World Factbook, describe the Argentine population as 98 percent white. This myth, although vaguely supported by the existence of a relatively large and sustained European immigration, was even more deceptive than the myth of mestizaje. In fact, the part of the Argentine population that was either European-born or of European descent could not have reached more than 60 percent at its peak in the 1920s. The myth did not account for the racial identity of the remaining 40 percent of the Argentine population. Furthermore, a sizable indigenous population existed in several parts of the country at the same time that Buenos Aires was exporting the white country myth to foreign investors.[10]. --79.47.219.115 (talk) 17:30, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

This quote goes in the same direction than this article, and my take on this discussion with you. You are the one that imagined there was a single Argentine ethnicity encompassing all europeans, and that's precisely what this quote denies (i.e: you are the one who denies amerindian argentine ethnicity as an authentic argentine ethnicity, etc). So it is an argument in our favor to develop an article like this on just one more single ethnicity in Argentina.

In other words, the article deny the myth of "White Argentina", a country almost 100% European; not the fact that there is a sizable population that can be identified as White Argentines.

Regarding the figure estimations, I don't know how they were constructeed, but it seems that the author is denying european ethnicity to everyone who is not 100% of european descent, and that's probably not the case in Argentina, when obvious mestizos are fully integrated into white ethnicity. Anyway, this opinion should be used to discuss figures, at most. Salut, --IANVS (talk) 19:26, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Am sorry but, the problem is always the same. This article is an original research. First, doesn't exist "White Argentine" as a ethnic or social group. Second, it is just a term that descrives an indeterminated group of people, nothing else. In fact, I give you some reference to save this article (for exemple, The myth of Argentina as a white; or the other book about ethnicity). But, unfortunly you don't listen, because you think I have "some against you", and is not true. --79.47.219.115 (talk) 22:03, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Who said there is not such thing as a "white argentine" group? of course there is, not just in the obvious reality, but in many publicatios wich refers to the white argentines as "criollos", "gringos", "descendientes de inmigrantes", and of course "blancos". You can find it in many places. The is not an official census, or an official figure of "white argentine", claim by the goverment, but, that’s not the Only source.

Here you have some references to “white argentines” as “gringos”: http://www.naya.org.ar/congresos/contenido/49CAI/Amat.htm

http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo=830518

http://www.temariodigital.com.ar/principal/articulos/historia/308-criollos-y-gringos-en-la-pampa.html

http://www.pampagringa.com.ar/Pueblos/PROV_STA_FE/CASEROS/Casilda/NOTAS/aspect_musicales.htm

Now, what’s the problem? Its a “semantic” issue? You can call it as you wish: gringos, argentines of european descent, criollos, “hijos de inmigrantes”... but, deny the existence of this group is completely OUT of the reality.

PD: another reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Argentina_policy

--Shrewsbury333 (talk) 11:59, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

The word is used (even in the quotations submitted) to designate the population that has a European origin, but in an ambiguous way, even if they belong to different ethnic groups. No one ever said that they are an ethnic group, with a common culture, common lenguage. The argentine culture and lenguage is common to "criollos" and "mestizos", no exist a "white argentine culture". --95.245.83.207 (talk) 21:41, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

It is an umbrella term, ok? The instensity of a concept is inversely proportional to its extension. The specfics of an ethnos vary along the level we consider it: a local (Mallorcan) or regional (Balearic) culture can be more substantially described than a national culture (Spanish), or than a cross-national one (Hispanic). Yet all of them have specifics and particularities than define them, according to its extension. When considering "White" Argentines" we are contrasting them against "Amerindian Argentines", "Afro-Argentines", "East-Asian Argentines" (all of which are also umbrella terms). Yes, these concepts are unespecific and ambiguous, but they are helpful for an unfamiliar reader to have a panoramic view of the situation before entering into more substantial details. Salut, --IANVS (talk) 14:25, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

"When considering "White" Argentines" we are contrasting them against "Amerindian Argentines", "Afro-Argentines", "East-Asian Argentines" (all of which are also umbrella terms). Yes, these concepts are unespecific and ambiguous, but they are helpful for an unfamiliar reader to have a panoramic view of the situation before entering into more substantial details". Yes, but making this contrast is WP:OR, unless you can find other sources that do the same thing, surely? AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:29, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

The sources have been cited in this talk page countless times. Salut, --IANVS (talk) 15:24, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Anonymous User 2

Please take a time to review your attitude. It is evident right from the start that YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE WHOLE ARTICLE. This is why you first criticize the name, later one of the sources, then that the sports/music sections are too long, etc., etc. It is obvious that you dislike the article, and so you are looking for any little detail to criticize it. As we say in Spanish, you are searching for a cat's fifth leg (Le estás buscando la quinta pata al gato). Yesterday, as you had not obtained consensus for the changes you suggest, you attempted to force them, and in the way you violated the 3RR rule; that is why I requested the page's protection. That is not the right attitude if you want some of your suggestions to prosper.

Now, some of your criticisms may cause improvements in the article, but there has to be concensus about them. I checked the changes you tried to force in the article, so let's see them point by point:

1) The name of the article is correct. Analysing your criticism on it, IANVS and I agreed that a section explaining the usage of the term was necessary. Now the usage of "White Argentine/Argentinian" as the most common term for the group in English language sources is well referenced, and its translation argentino blanco also appears in some Argentine bibliography (José Ingenieros was a well-known and respected writer). Consider the addition of the section as a little "victory".

2) It is evident that English is not your mother tongue, so some of your edits in the text look like direct transfers from Spanish. I am not a native English speaker either, but I am an English teacher so I am more fluent with it. I will insert your attempted edit saying that the label term may include people with little non-European ancestry but Caucasian phenotype, but with the proper vocabulary and grammar.

3) On The Joshua Project. The source is valid because the sources of the data it provides are valid; I already gave you a link to the data sources page. The fact that it is a site with missionary purposes does not make it invalid. I must confess that I also had doubts about the accuracy of the site's data, but I've already checked it. I am doing a research on the different races, and I'm loading the data from the JP on an Excel grid and it gives me similar results to those of the CIA Factbook or Worldstatemen.org. For example, the CIA Factbook states that the US have 79.9% Whites and 12.8% Blacks, and after summing up all the "white" and "black" ethnic groups from the JP the result was 77.8% Whites and 14.1% Blacks. The same with Argentina; World Statesmen.org states 86.4% Whites + 3.3% Arabs, and my calculation results were Whites 82.9% + 2.9% Arabs. The same happened with Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Canada, Costa Rica, Puerto Rico and other countries; there may be variations of 2-3% on the percentages, but the results are surprisingly similar to those of other sources.

4) The sports section is right according to the purpose of it inclusion in the article. Read it with impartial eyes, and you will see that I restricted myself to enunciate on what collectivity brought such sport (Example: The British brought the practice of football in the country, and the Italians brought Cycling), and to provide lists of sportmen of European/Middle Eastern descent.

5) The Rock section may be too long, it is true. Maybe because I know too much about the genre, I found it hard to make the text brief. I agree with you to revise it and try to make it shorter.

6) The Myth of White Argentina. First of all, I am the one who found Chamosa's study on the matter and brought it in the article as a source, for it was helpful to keep the article's neutrality. The myth is true in essence, and partially false in degree; I never bought that 97-98% of White people in Argentina, but no international source provides an estimate lower than 85% of Whites in Argentina. If you read the Estimates section carefully, you'll see that I state that the 97% figure provided by the CIA Factbook seems to be exagerated, and I suppose that it is the result of the successful propaganda organized by Argentina's elite to present the country as White, and there I cite Chamosa's study again. This elite also manipulated the meaning of the word "Criollo" to count all Argentina-born individuals as White and so invent that 97% -which the CIA Factbook effectively bought-. Again, in the section Usage of the term, when I discuss on the usage of the word Criollo, I cite Chamosa's study. As the template on top reads, the article is in expansion; among all the sections I plan to add, there is one about the myth.

7) To finnish this conflict, if you have any other suggestion, make it in the proper way and seeking consensus in the talk page, and you will obtain better results. I really hope you change your attitude; we need people with your passion to make Wikipedia better, not to wear ourselves out in unproductive edit warring.--Pablozeta (talk) 14:16, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Pablo: You really don't understand. This is not your own personal article, even if your own personal research. There is not a little victory, because there is not a "battle" between us. Nevertheless, I understand your attitude, because in some way this article is the fruit of your personal research, and tried to do it in Wikipedia in Spanish and it was erased by them [11]. Excuse me, but The Joshua Project, is not a valid source, the information in unofficial, is not academic. One advice, lists of musicians, artists, footballers and other sportsmen, you could put them in an appendix. A little correction, my mother lenguage is not spanish, is italian, but who cares. Finally, am not all anonymous users, but a few of them, because in Italy the routers change automaticaly the IP number, am sorry. It's very interesting your point of view, but continues to be an original research. Maybe you understand italian "manco ci sentiamo tutti italiani qua, figurati se gli viene in mente a qualcuno pensare che siamo della stessa etnia dei tedeschi, slavi, arabi e tanti altri." Saluti. Giovanni.--95.245.83.207 (talk) 20:45, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I summarize my position

The basic problem of this article is that mixes different things, according to an interesting point of view, but that is original research. The author put together some things from the article Ethnography of Argentina with other part of Immigration to Argentina, to sustain his hypothesis of the existence of a different ethnic group born from the interweaving of different European ethnic groups in Argentina, called "White argentinian". In fact, put in the same group Arabs and Turks, with Germans and Anglo-saxons people, among others, according to ancient theory of physical anthropology, now lapsed. Adding a lot of unnecessary information about politics, music, culture and sports, which is the reproduction of articles about politics, music and sport in Argentina. However, would be different if the article was only about the term, more or less widespread, which brings together in an ambiguous way all Argentines with a some European origin. At that time, however, you could not say: White Argentines are the Argentine descendants of colonists from Spain and Portugal ..., bla, bla, bla. And you should change the whole article. In other words exist the "term" but don't exist the ethnic group, do you understand?. You are right, I don't write well in English, but I am an Antropologist, with a Master in Social Sciences and am also candidate to PhD (at Roma Tre University), and know what am talking about. If you really want a list of the specific problems of your article, when I have a bit more free time, I will tell you. Otherwise, I just let this observations, hoping someday this article will be reviewed with common sense. Regards. G.--79.43.220.9 (talk) 20:39, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I'd say this was a good summary of the problems I see in the article as well. Without evidence that 'white' Argentinians actually identify themselves as such, rather than as simply Argentinians, or as Argentinians of a particular European or Middle Eastern descent, the 'ethnic group' can hardly be said to exist, never mind merit an article. Ethnicity is a social reality not a theoretical one to be produced at will to further a particular hypothesis. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:16, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

If you are a PhD, give us your name and number, please.

1) First of all, even if the ethnic group did not exist -which unexistance is yet to be proved- this article is an equivalent to the articles White American, European Australian, White Mexican, White Brazilian, White Canadian, and White Latin American, groups that are made up of people from many different ethnicities. The article refers primarily to all the White inhabitants of Argentina. If what you are after is the removal of this article, then remove all the articles before mentioned as well. Many users here in the talk page have brought much evidence of the presence of White people in Argentina, and they have expressed their pride of being White Argentines.

2) This has been already said above here many times: If the Afro-Argentines (considered as a cluster of different ethnic groups: Bantúes, Yorubas, Caboverdian Mulattoes put all together) and the Amerindians in Argentina (Aymaras, Quechuas, Tobas, Mapuches, Guaraníes, all put together) have their own articles on WP, why not the Argentines of European/Middle Eastern descent put all together in the same article? They have more things in common among them than with the other two groups (phenotypically and culturally speaking). It is just a matter of equality, don't you think? If this matter wasn't about White people, this whole discussion wouldn't exist.

3) It is easy to come here saying: "I have a PhD on Anthropology, out of the way!" Such a professional doesn't try to force changes in an article commiting vandalism. If you want me and the other editors of this article to believe that charade, I have to know your real name and your professional number first. So far, all I have seen is IP numbers and much incivil action, close to vandalism.--Pablozeta (talk) 22:01, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia contributors have a right to anonymity. If you choose not to believe other's claims about academic qualifications, that is your right. Accusing them of 'vandalism' over a content dispute is another matter, and liable to breach WP:NPA.

And as for your arguments over other articles, the difference is presumably that Afro-Argentines or Amerindians in Argentina each consider themselves to be an ethnic group. If you can show that they don't, then this is grounds for removing those articles, not adding further ones to bring about a spurious 'equality'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:38, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

You want my name and may phone numer? or my "codice fiscale"? Why?, the next time to came in Italy you will call me?. Am sorry but I wont do it. No matter who am I or not, I presented my reasons, you could consider it or not, is your choice. I was just looking for information about impact of italian immigration in South America and came on this article. As I have edited many times before in wikipedia in Italian, I tried to show you some mistakes here. But you always took them as personal "attacks", someone even tried to justify this article saying it wasn't racist. It's clear this is a important issue for you, Pablo, and for your friends. Unfortunately this can affect your neutrality. One last thing, Indigenous peoples in Argentina is not a ethnic group, is an article about all different ethnic group that exist in Argentina.--79.43.220.9 (talk) 23:22, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

This is no my original research:

1) The origin of the name is already explained and referenced in the section Usage of the name.

2) In the alleged/supposed case of this being original research, it is not MY original research for sure. First, I did not create the article on Wikipedia. The article had been here for almost three years before I found it. It was created on 14 June 2007, and I first edited it on 13 April 2010. Check the article's history, and you'll see how many other wikipedians had already edited the article before I started to expand it; some of them have congratulated my work on it.--Pablozeta (talk) 18:05, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

New Defense of this article as it is.

1) The article is not my original research; it was created in June 2007, and I found it and first edited it in April 2010. Before I began to expand it, many other editors had already improved it. Check the article´s stroy if you don't believe me.

2) The website questioned is The Joshua Project; When I first found the site, they already had the ethnic group "Argentinians White" included in the list of Argentina's ethnic groups with a photograph taken by Howard Erickson. The profile of the group lacked a text on their history, way of life, etc; so I submitted one. That was my only contribution; the group and the photo were already there when I found the site. When I asked the source of the Argentinians White group, Mr. Duane Frasier -a member of the Project- answered this: "The source for this group is a list from decades back. This group is composed of Argentines of European descent". So the group is not my invention; it was named that way decades ago.

3) The grouping of all European/Caucasus/Middle Eastern ethnic people groups as "White people" is neither arbitrary nor lapsed. The US Census Bureau nowadays defines White people as "having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa." This definition is used to establish who is "White American" or who is not at this very moment. The same criteria of grouping European/Caucasus/Middle Eastern ethnic groups all together as White is used in the article White Latin American. All I did is to apply the same criteria to the White people born and residing in Argentina. If the article White Argentine is going to be questioned for this grouping, then all the other articles on White people should be questioned too: White Canadian, White Brazilian, European Australian, White Mexican, etc.

4) Due to the criticism of this unknown user, another editor and I agreed to add a new section about the usage of the term "White Argentine/Argentinian". This is now well explained and referenced in the correspondent section of the article.

5) The aim of the article is also to show the influence of the European immigrants and their descedants in Argentina's culture. That is why some sections were added. The Sports section is restricted to explain what ethnicity (colectividad in Spanish) brought such and such sport to Argentina (Example: the British brought football, Cycling was brought by the Italians), and to provide lists of sportmen of European/Middle Eastern descent. It is not my fault that I have so many people to name in those categories. The sections on Tango and Folklore also show European immigrant's influence on those genres, and lists of notable White Argentines. I admitted that the Rock section is too long, and I promised to make it shorter (See talk page).

6) The article Argentino blanco was erased in the Spanish Wikipedia for several reasons. First, it was the simple translation of an older version of the article "White Argentinian", and it was not even half as long and well referenced as it is now. Second, in Argentina nowadays there is such a current of "political correction", that anyone who uses the word "white" is immediately considered racist. I thought -and I still think- that English Wikipedia is different, that anyone can use the word White without being labelled as racist. Third, the consult for its deletion was in a technical draw when an Librarian came and arbitrarily deleted it before more users could express their opinions.--Pablozeta (talk) 03:49, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

As to whether the article is 'original research', this is not a question of which Wikipedia editor wrote it, but whether it is based on reliable sources that argue the same thing: that 'white Argentinian' is in fact an ethnic group. What the US Census Bureau says about ethnicity is thus irrelevant. If you (or any other Wikipedia editor) apply criteria from elsewhere, you are engaging in original research.

I note that you have not responded to my comments regarding the assignment of ethnicity to living individuals in the article. Can I ask whether you accept that this may be in breach of WP:BLP, and if not, why not?

To be clear, I do not consider the use of the term 'white' as necessarily racist, and if reliable evidence could be provided that significant numbers of Argentinians consider themselves as having 'white Argentinian' ethnicity, there would be no difficulty in my mind in having an article on the subject (provided that it conformed to WP:BLP). The difficulty is that the article provides no real evidence that such 'ethnicity' is real, rather than a category introduced by the article itself. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:23, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Joshua Project

User:Pablozeta made a query about the (un)reliability of the Joshua Project (http://www.joshuaproject.net) as a source for this article, which is to be found here: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Reliability of the Joshua Project as source. I've replied there accordingly. Cavila (talk) 10:05, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Would this whole discussion end if the article is renamed?

1) First of all, I wonder: this article had been in Wikipedia for almost three years before I found it. I subscribe to the use of the term, so I began to expand it, but it was in no way my original research. And now that I had done so much work in it, just now someone noticed that "it might contain original research". WP does not check all the articles in it? How come that an article based on (alleged) original research took three years to be discovered? In the alleged case this article was original research, this would prove an absolute lack of control of Wikipedia on the articles it contains.

2) In no part of the article reads: the White Argentines are a unique ethnic group. The introduction of the article reads clearly: White Argentines are the Argentine descendants of immigrants from Europe and the Middle East. It is a cluster of ethnic groups who have in common their European/Caucasus/Middle Eastern origin. This same criteria of grouping these ethnic groups all together is used in the articles about the White communities scattered outside Europe: White American, White Canadian, White Brazilian, European Australian, White Mexican, White Latin American, White Africans of European ancestry, etc. If this article is going to be questioned for this grouping, then go the other articles' talk pages and begin there this same discussion, but not take it up on this article only.

3) The Usage of the term section clearly explains that White Argentine appears mainly in English language sources, and few Spanish language sources use its equivalent argentino blanco. In Spanish the most common term is Argentine of European descent/ancestry. But since this article is in English, I use the most common term used in it.

4) About BLP, and since this term is not common in Spanish language sources, it is probable that all the living people I mention in the article -if asked about their ethnicity- will not answer "White Argentine", but "Argentine of European/Spanish/Italian/German/Arab/Armenian descent", because the exact term argentino blanco is not commonly used in Argentina. But this is also explained in the section Usage of the term, so we are going round in circles over and over again.

5) I just ask, if this article was renamed "Argentines of European/Middle Eastern descent" or some equivalent title, this whole discussion would end? Because this is a snowball that seems to be growin bigger and bigger out of control.--Pablozeta (talk) 18:05, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

In my opinion if this article is renamed Argentines of european descent, could be fine. But,a) without Arabs, Armenian, Turkish, and other people sof Middle East, because culturally they are very different to the peoples of Europe. In fact, the Middle East is an entire other region. b) without the part about music and sports, leaving only a very little text (to explain, in few lines, the impact of the immigration in culture, music, politics and sports) and one link to: List of Argentinian of european descent, or some thing like that. What do you think?--82.59.194.90 (talk) 18:41, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't consider that there is anything wrong in the name of this article, but taking into account that any of the well-documented explanations of Pablozeta seem to please user 82.59.194.90 (is there anything, which might please him?), he will be satisfied if the article is renamed "White Population in Argentina"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rusoargentino (talk • contribs) 18:57, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

a) Arabs and Caucasians are always considered along Europeans when considering immigrant population to Argentina. The criteria for dividing the Middle East from Europe is irrelevant from the "Ethnography of Argentina" point of view; b) The subsections can be much reduced, of course, and any new article along the lines of "List of White Argentines" can be created. Salut, --IANVS (talk) 19:00, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

"Arabs and Caucasians are always considered along Europeans when considering immigrant population to Argentina". Considered by who? Why are Africans for example not considered along with Europeans? And as I've already pointed out in discussions with Pablo Zeta, 'ethnicity' and 'descent' aren't the same thing. Any "List of White Argentinians" would almost certainly be contrary to WP:BLP policy, as applying unsourced ethnic or 'racial' categories is forbidden, and even with a source would probably be unjustified.

The debate regarding this article may well raise concerns about others, but we can only discuss the relevant article here - if a more general policy decision needs to be made, this isn't the place to debate it. On those grounds, I see little point in discussing what other articles have done. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:10, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

1) Sub-saharian Africans are not considered along with europeans and middle easterners because thay came as slaves during XVI-XVIII centuries in very different living conditions from the europeans and had their cultural elements mostly marginalised from the "melting pot". There are only new Sub-saharian african migration from the late XX century on, and they are mostly not integrated into the mainstream culture either.

2) Ethnicity and Descent are not the same. You are right. If this article was to be about European descent in Argentina... well, almost 100% of Argentinians have some degree of European ascendancy nowadays. But, in fact, there is an Euro/Middle Eastern "immigrant" ethnicity in Argentina that is not the only thnicity in Argentina, so this is a culture-oriented article as well.

3) Yes, identification of people has to be in accordance to its (proved) ascendancy, as long as there are no explicit "ethnic" identifications (take note that no one is talking about "racial categories").

4) Other articles show that the defintions used in this one are not OR. Salut, --IANVS (talk) 19:29, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I don'tthink there's really any problem. The first section already provides a definition of the scope of what "white Argentine" is supposed to mean, as well as explanations of who use or don't use the term and under which meanings. The Argentine reluctance to use the term is already pointed, and may be expanded if needed. But having an article on a topic does not mean endorsing the topic, after all, we have articles about the Moon landing conspiracy theories without considering them to be correct. The thing is not whenever there is such a thing as a "white Argentine" or not, but whenever there are sources that talk about this or not. MBelgrano (talk) 19:56, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

If the idea that a "white Argentine" ethnicity exists is only supported by a minority of sources discussing ethnicity in Argentina, then an article on the subject would lack neutrality if it did not say so, and should also present the majority case. No article can simply choose its sources to 'prove' contested arguments, and then go on to apply this 'proof', particularly where it is applying categories to living people. I'm not in the best position to find the relevant sources, however. Perhaps those editors with the requisite language skills might help out here? AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:10, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I guess you'll need to find RS denying the existence of an Argentine ethnicity derived from massive Euro/Middle Eastern/Caucasian immigration + Criollo previously mainstream culture. And, let me tell you, that would be imposible. Or, you'll need to find RS stating that it is mistaken (for any reason) to denote as "White Argentine" the umbrella term encompassing these migrations and their mix. As long as there are RS stating that the ethnicity exist and that the umbrella term can be used in the way the article uses it, the "relevant RS" argument is on the side of this article, as it stands. Salut, --IANVS (talk) 20:20, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I must point that "minority" in Wikipedia means something that's only supported or proposed by conspiracy theorists, common people writing things at internet blogs, or similar cases. It is not meant as a majority vs. minority thing, to be settled by counting votes, awards, dedicated authors or whatever. That the authors that talk about white Argentines are not usually Argentine but foreign authors, do not turn them into a minority for wikipedia purposes MBelgrano (talk) 20:58, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

"I must point that "minority" in Wikipedia means something that's only supported or proposed by conspiracy theorists...". No. It means a minority opinion in reliable sources: in this case, scholarly articles discussing ethnicity in Argentina. Where they are from is of little consequence. It is how relevant they are to the discussion that matters. If only foreign editors refer to a 'White Argentine' ethnicity, it seems to me that this is evidence that it doesn't in fact exist. As I've said elsewhere, ethnicity is a sociocultural construct - it is something people attribute to themselves. Unless you can provide WP:RS that demonstrates a meaningful number Argentinians consider themselves as having 'White Argentinian' ethnicity the ethnicity does not exist. It is instead an 'ethnic category' - something subjective applied by outsiders. Wikipedia should not be in the business of labelling people according to arbitrary categories to shoe-horn them into articles. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:43, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

And in the end...

It seems that the problem from the Lazio POV is that White Middle Easterners and Caucasians are to be considered along with Europeans. It seems to me that the intention of dividing these groups (unsustainable from the History and the Ethnography of Argentina) is to be resisted. Apart from being a very arbitrary distinction (when Armenians and Sirio-Lebanese in Argentina are/were as White and as Christian as are Greeks or Bulgarians) it is extraneous from the American perspective, as demonstrated in the continent-wide consideration of these groups along the Europeans (BTW, Which are the borders of Europe?). In fact, by the time this migration took place, the Ottoman Empire stretched from Bosnia to Arabia, and was considered an European Power. Let's not mix up present-time Euro POV with all of this, please. Salut, --IANVS (talk) 19:14, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

And why not consider Africans along with White Middle Easterners and Caucasians, as they also 'migrated' to Argentina at the same time? As to whether Christianity is relevant to the article, I've no idea, but it does indicate to me at least that simplistic divisions of Argentinians into 'ethnicities' is less than helpful.

None of this is of the slightest relevance to the question of whether a 'White Argentinian' ethnic group actually exists, or is a construct of the article. Unless external WP:RS can be found to show this, there can be no justification for the article at all. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:24, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the "African Problem", again: " Sub-saharian Africans are not considered along with europeans and middle easterners because thay came as slaves during XVI-XVIII centuries in very different living conditions from the europeans and had their cultural elements mostly marginalised from the "melting pot". There are only new Sub-saharian african migration from the late XX century on, and they are mostly not integrated into the mainstream culture either."

Regarding the evidence, you neither took the job of reading through the sources, right? Salut, --IANVS (talk) 19:31, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

IANVS, can you clarify whether the section starting "" Sub-saharian Africans are not considered..." above is a quotation, and if so, where from? Without knowing the source, I can make no reasonable comment ---- EDIT ---- Sorry, I see it is from the section above.

As to reading all the sources, no I haven't. If something in the article needs to be justified by a source, the source should be cited. I've not suggested that the sources cited don't say what the article says they do. On that basis, any criticisms of the article as lacking WP:RS is due to improper citing. If it is necessary to read a source in order to satisfy WP standards, the article is at fault. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:45, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

WP standard is, precisely, WP:RS. If the inline citation is not properly done, please consider tagging the phrases or sections, as needed. Then we can discuss each one of them. As long as you don't do this, it is not clear what is to be discussed and why. Salut --IANVS (talk) 20:05, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

This article may possibly be in violation of WP:BLP policy

It has become apparent to me after studying this article that it may possibly breach WP:BLP, in that it assigns living individuals to the ethnic group/category 'white Argentinians' without providing evidence that the individuals concerned consider themselves to be members of the group, and without providing any other evidence that they in fact belong to that group (if it indeed exists, which has been contested). I raised the issue as a hypothetical question at the Village Pump, here, and though no firm conclusion was given, it seems that Wikipedia policy discourages ethnic categorisation of individuals under almost all circumstances, particularly where they have not so categorised themselves.

It seems to me also entirely possible that this unsourced categorisation falls foul of WP:OR, and on this ground also may raise questions as to the suitability of the article for inclusion in Wikipedia.

I have as yet not raised my concerns regarding this article through Wikipedi procedures, believing instead that the issue might best be dealt with informally. I look forward to seeing a response. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:10, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Given that no response to this concern has yet been made, I am considering raising the issue formally. Before I do this, I will however allow a reasonable period (24 hours) for replies. This issue isn't about semantics, but about a core principle of Wikipedia policy - that statements need to be verifiable, and in the case of WP:BLP the standard of verifiability is particularly strict. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:30, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

That thread talks about categorization, not about this case, and most comments are innaplicable. Rather than making hypothetic questions somewhere else and see what happens, you should have been clear that you were talking about this page and told so at the rigth noticeboard. And, in any case, this seems like a mere wikilawyering to enforce things that are not getting enough consensus. MBelgrano (talk) 20:42, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I had hoped to resolve this amicably, without involving formal procedures. I asked a hypothetical question in order to find out what policy was, as I have explained. If you won't further clarification on the issue, you can of course ask at the Village Pump yourself, giving more explicit details, or yourself start the formal process.

As for 'Wikilawyering': as I see it, the article may well breach a clear Wikipedia principle, and I have raised my legitimate concerns here first. I'd have thought a Wikilawyer would have gone straight to process... AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:57, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Having had no further response, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#White_Argentine. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:51, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

People in the article

There are a whole lot of uncited people in the article with claims that they are white Argentinians, can the names either be cited or removed , thanks. If the citations the support that these people are white Argentinians are in the article but I have missed them then can someone please point the cites out for me or present them here, thanks. Off2riorob (talk) 21:54, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

To be clear, unless there is a citation referring to a person that is in this article as a white Argentinian then they require removing from the article. Off2riorob (talk) 21:56, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

And just so nobody misses what I've posted above, see here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:02, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

templates

The templates have been added to draw attention to and help implrove problems in the article, this article is full of WP:Or original research and uncited claims of ethnicity, these items need addressing and improving or removing, while this is being attempted the templates are totally acceptable. Off2riorob (talk) 11:23, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

People who is searching for a hair in an egg

I've read this whole discussion through, and I cannot believe what I read. Detractors and critics of the article get lost in theoretical and intellectualoid arguments making this matter more and more unclear every time. They ask for sources that can't be found. In my opinion, they are just searching for a hair in an egg (le están buscando el pelo al huevo), so they won't find it.

The section Usage of the term clearly explains that the concept "white argentine/argentino blanco" is not used in Argentina, but very frequent in English language sources. So, if this term is not used by the Argentinians themselves, how can they self-identify with a term they barely use? As Pablozeta explained, White Argentines most likely self-identify with the term "Argentine of European/Middle Eastern descent".

I would like to ask Andy the Grump, the Italian anthropologist-to-be named Giovanni, and all other detractors of this article, -who criticize the grouping together of European/Caucasus/Middle Eastern ethnic groups- to go to all the other talk pages of the articles on White people (White American, White Brazilian, White Mexican, White Latin American, European Australian, etc) and start this same argument there, to see if they can change them too. Once all those articles are modified, then come back here and we'll talk again.

Since I subscribe to the point of view of users Pablozeta, IANVS, I firmly support the idea that templates must not be placed on the article until consensus is reached in this talk page first. So, I'll keep removing them as soon as I see them.--Rusoargentino (talk) 23:54, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Templates are placed in the article because there is no consensus. What else would they be for? As for other articles, they are of no direct relevance to this discussion. Either the article conforms to Wikipedia standards, or it doesn't. You may well be right that other articles need amending, but arguing that you can't change any of them until you have changed all the others is illogical.

Can I take it from your reference to 'consensus' that you will at least tell us whether you think this article conforms to Wikipedia:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality and if not, why it need not do so? A direct answer might at least make a move in the right direction. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:36, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Rusoargentino, you suggested I "go to all the other talk pages of the articles on White people (White American, White Brazilian, White Mexican, White Latin American, European Australian, etc) and start this same argument there". Having looked at the articles themselves, I can say this hardly seems a priority. None of them include the vast (unsourced) lists of 'whites' that this article does. Whether they may have broken WP rules in some cases I don't know (I'd need to look in more detail at sources), but if they are, it cannot be to anything like the same scale as seen here. I note there is also a Wikipedia article on the ethnography of Argentina, which discusses much of the same theoretical issues as this one. There are further articles on settlement from Italy, Spain, Germany and many others. Can I ask why this article is seen as necessary at all? AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:40, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Because of the need of treating all of these peoples together? Anyone would say that, according to your reasoning, the article on White Americans is as irrelevant as this one, right?. But it is not irrelevant, these populations, that happened to intermix and share a good deal of similar features in Argentina have some very important social and cultural features in common so as to deserve a common article (other than one on Argentine Ethnography). On the other hand, I agree with you regarding the "raw lists". Lists are usually created as separate articles, and this should be the case also here. Regarding the comparision between people mentioned in the other articles vs. this one, the only difference is the explicit attribution of descent, which is lacking here. Salut, --IANVS (talk) 01:47, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

And I will explain you further: Colectivities in Argentina (Polish Argentine, German Argentine, etc.) are not equal to the whole of the descendants of any of these communities, as one of the most remarkable features of the white pop of Argentina is, precisely, its intermix. 21st century White Argentinians are mostly "multiethnic" (i.e., counting on Irish, Italian, Spanish, Amerindian, Basque, Russian and German grand-grandparents, for example). As such, they aren't properly accounted for in any of these specific articles (that mostly refer to people more integrated into their ancestral ethnic identification). However, the already mentioned "mix" is quite common since first generation Argentines (that is, a century ago for most of the Euro descendants) and this common ground (colectivities + mix) is what it has to be taken into account in this article. Salut, --IANVS (talk) 02:08, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

BTW, and I excuse myself for the following ad-hominem, but I feel I have to state this before we continue debating: We've been generously answering your questions and pointing out important features of the ethnography of Argentina, about its characteristics and nature, and even going into some detail. That would be fine as part of a debate with some people unfamiliar with the subject that pose questions about it, but... some of you, that don't have even the slightiest idea about the subject, continue the discussion as if you actually knew about it (telling everybody what is of importance, what is to be considered, etc.). Please, show a little more humility for a subject about which you, admitedly so, don't have any clue. Salut, --IANVS (talk) 01:54, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

"Social and cultural features" are learned. They have nothing to do with descent. If they were dependent solely on descent, there would be no 'Argentinian culture', only individual possibly 'hybrid') 'cultures', which is just nonsensical. And if you are suggesting that 'non-whites' contribute nothing to 'white' Argentinian culture (or descent for that matter), I'd suggest you need to read the article again.

'one of the most remarkable features of the white pop of Argentina is, precisely, its intermix. 21st century Argentinians are mostly "multiethnic"'. Very true. As the article shows, DNA evidence indicates that a significant proportion of this 'intermix' is non-white. So why call it 'white' at all?

And in response to your 'generosity' and your request for 'humility', I'll not respond, beyond suggesting that (a) you can have little idea about what I do or don't know, and (b) ad-hominem arguments are usually a sign of weakness. AndyTheGrump (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:13, 9 November 2010 (UTC).

Ad hominem arguments are also a sign of nuisance. Do I have to repeat that this is an article about ethnics and not DNA? This has been stated from the first line. Now, can you show how relevant is the "non-white" contribution in cultural terms to this ethnos, or either I'd admit you are trying to pose as knowing something you really don't know. Thanks, --IANVS (talk) 02:25, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

"this is an article about ethnics and not DNA". So why does it have a section on genetic research? As for the relevance of 'the "non-white" contribution in cultural terms', I'd ask how any article that mentioned rock music could deny the 'non-white' influence on that: of course rock is hardly unique to Argentinian culture in any case. What about the Tango? the article itself points out the probable Yoroba influence. I'll ask again, why is it so important to describe a multi-ethnic society as 'white'? AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:55, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh well, did you noticed, by chance, that tango also has Spanish, German, Polish influences?? But... why it has to be stressed only the "Afro" influences (be it Yoruba or whatever) and denied the "Euro" influences on it? Why do we have to create specific articles only for minority influences on the mainstream multiethnic culture of any society, but not for the majority influences? Pablozeta already said this: if this article were titled "European Argentine" instead of "White Argentine" there would be no problem at all. But then we have some kind of extremism that, in the name of multiculturalism, ironically tolerates the grouping of numerous Sub-saharian cultures or different native american peoples into one unprecise and unconvenient umbrella term, but denies the same proceeding for a group of euro-mediterranean-caucasian cultures and peoples. Give us a break, Andy. And please, take into account, once again, the existance of other multiple similar articles for the white populations of the New World. --IANVS (talk) 05:54, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Thats right, the whole area is full of uncited opinion, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a reason not to improve this article. The first thing I would like to see brought in line with wikipedia policy and guidelines is, either cite any claims of individuals ethnicity or colour identification or remove the persons name. A simple starter to see how bad the issues are, in the infobox under white Argentinian - a picture of Gabriel Heinze is he citable as a white Argentinian ? Off2riorob (talk) 11:25, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

'Oh well, did you noticed, by chance, that tango also has Spanish, German, Polish influences?? But... why it has to be stressed only the "Afro" influences (be it Yoruba or whatever) and denied the "Euro" influences on it'? I think the article deals with the origins of the tango very well. It demonstrates the multi-culturalism inherent in the development Argentinian culture, in which those of European and of Sub-Saharan African ancestries played a part. To stress the African influence alone would be wrong, but so would a denial that Africans (more specifically, those of West African descent, e.g. the Yoroba and other relatively culturally-close groups) have played a part in the development of this iconic element of Argentine culture. With regard to the general 'grouping' of say native American peoples, I'd agree that if you are discussing their culture, it is clearly wrong to ignore differences, but if you are discussing the way they have been treated by those of European descent, it almost certainly isn't. If you think this is 'political correctness', I say so what, it is also the way neutral articles based on proper sources should be written. If you think Wikipedia policy on this should be changed, then argue this in the appropriate place, rather than just ignoring the policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:48, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Some things, about White American, White Brazilian, White Mexican. First, it's a fool's consolation to think everyone is in the same boat (White Mexican). Second, White exist as a official demographic category in USA and also in Brazil, but don't do it in Argentina. Thanks.--95.245.83.110 (talk) 15:45, 9 November 2010 (UTC)