Talk:Aragonese language/Archive 1

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30,000? Crikey, mate, that's luxury. Me and my fellow Cornish speakers reckon to number less than 1000 who are truly fluent with probably another 2000 who can get by. user:sjc —Preceding undated comment added 02:03, 16 August 2002.

I guess you're right. One little difference maybe: Cornish has been revived and has passed its lowest anyway. The Aragonese are currently struggling to keep their language alive, which is not very likely to succeed. But indeed there are much smaller (and closer to extinction) languages in Europe: What about North Frisian (given 10,000, probably just 6,000), East Frisian (1,000), Tsakonian (300), Livonian (20)? Those are endangered!--Caesarion 11:23, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Numbers for Aragonese cannot be taken much seriously, as no 'scientific' statistics have been made or at least published. In my opinion, native speakers of Aragonese who still master the language are no more than 9,000 or 10,000, most of them older than 70 and already mixing it with Spanish. Numbers of 30,000 or higher are probably the result of adding those who 'know' the language, can understand it or have studied it somewhere, but who wouldn't really count as mother tonguer speakers. Much of the area where Aragonese has been traditionally spoken -central Pyrenees- is now almost uninhabited, young people going southwards to the cities (Monzón, Uesca, Zaragoza) where Spanish is used. So I would say that, if things do not change quickly, Aragonese is no doubt a seriously endangered language, probably the most endangered Romance language in Western Europe. --Info — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.25.1.82 (talk) 15:08, 14 January 2006
If you speak the language, can you please check over my translation below? Tomertalk 20:46, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Your translation is really good, specially if you don't speak the language!!
(Just one thing. The last sentence seems to say the princess is Castilian. It actually says that the Kingdom of Murcia was the dowry paid by James I of Aragon for an Aragonese princess, so the princess was Aragonese. Now I might be wrong, but this could perhaps be the dowry for James's daughter, Violant, to king Alfonso X of Castile.) --Info — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.25.1.82 (talk) 19:36, 26 January 2006‎

Non-English text added by anon

Added by anon:

L'aragonés naxió alredol d'o 8eno sieglo como uno d'os muitos dialeutos d'o Latín desembolicauus en os Pirineus sobre un fuerte sustrato de tipo Basco. O reino d'Aragón (formau a partir d'os condaus d'Aragón, Sobrarbe y Ribagorza) s'estendilló progresibamén dende as montañas enta o Sud, desplazando á os Moros más t'o Sud y estendillando a luenga aragonesa.

A unión d'o Reino d'Aragón con Cataluña baxo o mesmo rei senificó a unión de territorios linguisticamén eterochenios, con o catalán fablau en a rechión oriental y l'aragonés en l'ozidental. Antimás, o catalán estió a luenga que s'estendilló á nuebos territorios conquiestos á os moros: as Islas Balears y o nuebo reino de Balenzia. A reconquiesta aragonesa enta o sud remató en o reino de Murzia, qu fue zediu por Chaime I d'Aragón, o conqueridor á o Reino de Castiella como dote ta una prinzesa aragonesa.

— Chameleon Main/Talk/Images 16:23, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Is this a translation request? If so, here's my translation:
"The Aragonese language arose around the 8th century, as one of the many dialects of Pyrenean Latin with a strong Basque influence. The Kingdom of Aragon (formed in part by the counties of Aragón, Sobrarbe and Ribagorza) progressively extended itself toward the south (see Reconquista), displacing the Moors, and consequently extending the influence of the Aragonese language.
"The unification of the Kingdom of Aragón with Catalonia under a single monarch resulted in the political union of two distinct linguistic regions—Catalán in the east, and Aragonese in the west. Thereafter, as a result of further conquests of lands from the Moors, it was the Catalan language that gained prominence in each newly-conquered region, including the Balearic Islands and the new Kingdom of Valencia. The Aragonese reconquiesta of the southern reached as far as the Kingdom of Murcia, which was presented as a dowry by James I of Aragon, the Conqueror, for a princess of the Kingdom of Castile."
It appears most of this information is already included in the article, at least the relevant parts... Anyone who doesn't like my translation (keeping in mind I don't speak the language per se), feel free to fix it.  :-) Tomer TALK 00:10, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

Someone needs to fill in the empty phonology section. --207.235.33.94 19:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Sergio Aragonés?

I think "Aragonés" should redirect to Sergio Aragonés instead, or at least to a disambiguation page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.195.88.5 (talk) 18:49, 23 April 2005

Meanwhile, I've added a disambiguation link at the top of the page, in case people came here accidentally looking for Sergio. Tomer TALK 22:42, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

language?

I'm not sure it's a lanaguage. I think it's an old variety or dialect that didn't have a normal evolution — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.175.93.57 (talk) 20:16, 22 August 2005

The sources cited in the external links section don't seem to share your uncertainty. Tomer TALK 22:37, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

If it is a dialect of Spanish, then that means that it is mutually intelligible to Spanish speakers. I believe differences between dialect should be only minute ones in spelling and pronunciation. Because Aragonese sounds very different from Spanish, as far as I can tell, I would classify it as another language. --207.235.33.94 19:09, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Unless I am mistaken, it appears as if the ENTIRE province of Huesca is being shown as having Aragonese speakers. Unless I am mistaken, it is only the small valleys of the Pyrenees that have speakers, so I refuse to believe that Aragonese is as widespread as the map is suggesting. Plus the population of Huesca province is 200.000. So it is absurd to paint the entire or most of the province of Huesca if less than 15% of the population speaks Aragonese!
Catalan distribution looks appropriate though.

Eboracum 23:37, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

The painted area probably shows those municipalities included in the Draft of the Law for the Languages of Aragon. What means this is the area regarded as Aragonese-speaking, based on how well some morphosintactic traits of the language arestill used by some people, mostly old people. The truth is, except for a couple of valleys and some little villages, Aragonese is not usually heard in social contexts. Even in those places where it is best preserved, many will use it only at home, and not everyone in the same family may be able to speak the language fluently, being it mainly used by old people or linguistically conscious young people. It would be very difficult to paint an accurate map, because languages in this phase tend to be used in sociological spots rather than territorially. What we could say is, within that painted area, there are about 10,000 people able to speak it fluently and quite a few (perhaps 10,000 or 15,000 more) who can understand it completely or even speak but not on a regular basis. But Aragonese has traditionally been spoken for centuries in the area painted there -and farther below- even in towns, right until the second or third decade of the 20th century. A linguistic territory is needed for a law, that's why this is considered the Aragonese-speaking territory for linguistic and historical reasons. Some Aragonese would have liked it bigger, but southwards from that borderline, while some villages still use many words from the language, grammar traits have completely disappeared. --Estrolicador 11:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Can I just say...?

Loved it, loved the show. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.21.96.49 (talk) 08:15, 2 March 2007 (UTC).

Aragonese, was Navarro-Aragonese

No mention at all that the so-called today Aragonese was a language or dialect common to the Kingdom of Navarre and the Kingdom of Aragon. The linguistic facts are well-known. There are evident rests of this in toponymy, vocabulary and in the popular forms of Spanish, in Navarre and in Aragon even now.--2deseptiembre (talk) 17:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Navarro-aragonese is a filological term, like Megleno-Romanian or Rhaeto-Romance, without any tradion of use. Since the common romance navarro-aragonese is extint in Navarra...there is no speakers that use the term navarro to call their language, and so, the general term that we use is aragonese, or the euphemistic fabla. Some autors believe that western aragonese is the only actual continuation of romance navarro. The differences between the two branches of the language are no important and there was a gradient of total continuity between this branches. There is a diacronic difference, the early castilianization of the written language in the medieval Navarra Kingdom that can create the impresion of a difference.--ARAGONESE35 (talk) 09:29, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Featured

Coul this article be presented as a featured article? --Jeneme (talk) 12:13, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

With an immense amount of work, possibly. But definitely not in its current state. Please familiarise yourself with the criteria. Jezhotwells (talk) 09:22, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Talk:Aragonese language/Archive 1/GA1

Wrong suggestion of unity

While informally known as fabla ("talk" or "speech"), Aragonese is also commonly referred to by the names of its numerous local dialects, which arose from the fragmentation of the language over the centuries.

The lines above suggest that Aragonese was once standardised or at least unified. Languages usually evolve the other way around, i.e. start as a collection of dialects within a language continuum and end up becoming more internally homogeneous. I think the statement should be modified, unless based on evidence. Boodex (talk) 17:59, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

You're right, I'll edit it. --Jotamar (talk) 17:36, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Linguistic jargon

I have a working knowledge of linguistics, but there is way too much jargon in the Grammar section for general readers; I'd fix it if I could understand it. Miniapolis 00:20, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Could you pinpoint a few examples? --Jotamar (talk) 16:45, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

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Reformatting Opening Sentence and Two Citations

I think the opening sentence could be made clearer by moving the the fact that it is spoken "in several dialects by about 12,000 people as of 2011" to the end of the next sentence.

There is also an issue with the last citation under Early modern period in the Literature section that's resulting in a "Missing or empty |title= (help)" and the last reference, Martínez Cortés & Paricio Martín (2017), could be reformatted. Silmarlu (talk) 17:54, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

The last citation in the Early Modern Period section was originally a "Citation needed" template when it was added, but was changed as some point into a broken empty citation, I set it back into a citation needed. Erinius (talk) 21:30, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 19 January 2021 and 6 May 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Rgk50. Peer reviewers: Silmarlu.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 14:37, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

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