Talk:Arado Ar 196/Archive 1

Archive 1

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Romania didn't use Ar 196...

Yes they did. Romaina ordered 24 AR 196s, but only managed to assemble 2 before the Soviet Union invaded the country.MoRsE 15:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Romania did not use any Arado Ar196. So far, no record of any Arado Ar196 in Romanian service has been found. According to Jean Louis Roba, as described in two books, respectively "Les Hydroavions de la Luftwaffe, Vol.1" (Editions lela Presse, Outreau, 2008) and "Seaplanes Over the Black Sea" (Editura Modelism, Bucharest, 1995), there is a "legend" that 24 crated Arado Ar192 aicraft allegedley arrived in Romania in the summer of 1944 along with an unspecified number of Heinkel He114 seaplanes. The "legend" states that two airframes were assmebled but were not put into service before 8 August 1944 when the Soviet forces took over the Siutghiol seaplane base and allegedly confiscated all 24 Arado aircraft as well as a number of He114. This legend is based on veteran's recollections. There is no documentary evidence (thus far) to confirm this story. RaduB 10:40, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Standard Kriegsmarine aircraft?

This is kind of a "yes" and "no" sort of thing. It was the standard float plane used aboard the ships of the Kriegsmarine, but, as I understand it, the Kriegsmarine was not really allowed to operate its own aircraft, thus these would still be Luftwaffe aircraft.--172.190.57.109 (talk) 07:46, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Arado Ar 196: floatplane fighter?

On the Ar 196s German language Wikipedia page, the Arado Ar 196 is categorized as a multirole fighter (Mehrzweckkampfflugzeug) that also performed scouting and reconnaissance duties. Should it be categorized as such here as well? Semi-Lobster (talk) 02:08, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

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Romanian and Greek use?

There appears to be a bit of a dispute about whether Romania and Greece operated the Ar 196. While the cited Franks does claim that Romania operated the Ar196, Axworthy, Mark; Scafeş, Cornel; Craciunoiu, Crisitan (1995). Third Axis Fourth Ally: Romanian Armed Forces in the European War, 1941–4945. London: Arms and Armour Press. ISBN 1-85409-267-7. p. 305- claims that the Germans promised six Ar 196s in 1944 , but that they were never delivered. For Greek use, the source as given unverifiable, as the author and date details don't match the claimed book, and there is no page number.Nigel Ish (talk) 10:39, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

The author of texts The Axis air forces : flying in support of the German Luftwaffe appears to be Frank Collin, an American Nazi - and per this discussion needs to be used at best with great caution. More trustworthy sources appear to be needed to back up Josephs claims.Nigel Ish (talk) 10:55, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

I can find no mention of Greek use of the Ar 196 in either Volume I [1] -which appears to be the volume cited, or Volume II [2] which actually covers the German invasion of Greece, of The Mediterranean and Middle East. The details given in the cite match neither volume. We need a verifiable source about Greek use to include it in the article.Nigel Ish (talk) 11:56, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

I'd remove them both - Greek use was presumably postwar, and it seems doubtful that the official histories would have covered that (which seems confirmed given that you can't find the supposed reference). Collin isn't worth the paper it's written on. Parsecboy (talk) 12:02, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

I believe I had read the germans supplied some Ar 196 to Romania but they were delivered disassembled (in crates) and they had no time to re-assemble them before surrender. The crates were then taken by Soviets. Nothing I know of greek use unless there were some leftovers afte german withdrawal that they may have gotten back into use. Have not seen anythign verifyable in this case.--Denniss (talk) 12:14, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

The article currently claims that a single Ar 196 was captured by the Greeks in early April 1941 when it force-landed near "Peraia", and was subsequently reapired and pressed into use. I think that it is important to hear from the editor who posted these claims so that they can give the actual verifiable sources - INCLUDING page numbers that they got the information from.Nigel Ish (talk) 12:23, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

See the revert war from may 22 or so - similar bogus claim from diverse IP and new editors. Its not in the given source and the unit, or parts of it, were not even in the area. --Denniss (talk) 12:25, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Adding basic information has become rather a chore with so much pushback from 'historians' - I simply read Η Ιστορία Τισ Ελλάδος Στον Δευτέρο Παγκόσμιο Πόλεμο Με Φωτογραφιες, where on page 16 it mentions an expatriated 196 that joined 13th Light Bombardment Squadron. I don't mind to leave it... I am a professional writer on this period and have more work to do if such basic information takes such effort to enter. AlexMehtidis (talk) 05:04, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Dennis I don't know what your sources are, I believe it was amended to Aufklärungsgruppe 126, who were operating from Skaramangas from the 9th May 1941 - their inventory listed as He 60, Ar 196s and Bv 138s. AlexMehtidis (talk) 05:10, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Here you cited Greek use to History Of The Second World War, The Mediterranean And Middle East, Volume I - which is incorrect, as there is no mention of Greek use, and that book doesn't even cover the German invasion, and Romanian use to Frank Joseph AKA Frank Collin's The Axis Air Forces: Flying in Support of the German Luftwaffe- are you now claiming that [3] you were basing the claim on something else entirely - did you look at the references you readded? If not, why did you add them? here on List of aircraft of Greece in World War II, you re-added Greek use of the Ar 196 based on a citation to Shores, Christopher (2008). Air War for Yugoslavia Greece and Crete 1940-41. Grub Street. ISBN 9781909808454., another source that does not mention Greek use, claiming in the edit summary "Clearly you did not read the source as it does". What is going on here?Nigel Ish (talk) 18:43, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Some of this is a mistake, those books I cited may have contained some surrounding contextual information which I included, whilst the actual source referencing the capture had been removed some time before. I maintained the books that referenced the capture itself above, though I was in a repeated battle with Dennis undoing and re-adding so there may have been a mistake at some points where I re-added my contextual source without the actual capture source itself. In regards to Romanian use, I know nothing of the author - though I don't understand why being a 'Nazi' would necessarily have anything to do with reliability when regarding a Romanian import. Ar 196 units in combat states "the Ar 196 never actually entered Romanian service and no photograph has surfaced of the type" with no real supporting evidence, and the fact that a photo doesn't exist doesn't necessarily mean much. "In the wake of the Graf Spee" on pg. 222 it reads "(a few Ar196A-3s were despatched in 1942 and used by the 161 Coastal Squadron), and to Romania."

So clearly sources conflict heavily on this, so it seems most pertinent to add them to the page with an 'unverified' marker next to them in the hope that a conclusive or primary source can surface. AlexMehtidis (talk) 04:37, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

The German Wikipedia article claims that 28 Ar 196 aircraft flew with the 101st and 102nd Romanian Coastal Squadron (Escadrilia, Flotila de hidroaviatie) citing page 197 in "Hans-Jürgen Becker, Elmar Wilczek: Wasserflugzeuge – Flugboote, Amphibien, Schwimmerflugzeuge. Bernard & Graefe Verlag, Koblenz 1994, ISBN 3-7637-6106-3" Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 05:21, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Unlikely, Mark Axworthy in Third Axis Fourth Ally has both units still equipped with He 114 by mid/autumn 44. I have failed to find the Ar 196 even noted there. Waffen Arsenal 126 mentions Bulgaria as the only foreign customer, Romania is not mentioned at all (but they would have gotten them as help from Germany due to a defense agreement). Reference 41 from the germany article may have some more details. The book "German aircraft industry and production 1933-45", page 263, shows 24x Ar 196 in the romanian export list for 1944.--Denniss (talk) 09:25, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

I found these two online sources Jürgen Prommersberger—Ein Seeaufklärer und das Standardbordflugzeug der Deutschen Kriegsmarine and Hans-Jürgen Becker, Elmar Wilczek—Wasserflugzeuge - Flugboote, Amphibien, Schwimmerflugzeuge Entwicklungsgeschichte der deutschen Flugboote, Schwimmerflugzeuge, Amphibien, Bodeneffektgeräte sowie Bordflugzeuge Not sure if this is just regurgitating previous sources. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 10:24, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

William Green's Warplanes of the Third Reich (Green, William (1970). Warplanes of the Third Reich. New York: Doubleday and Company, Inc. ISBN 0-385-057822.) mentions (briefly) Romanian use "The Romanian 101st and 102nd Coastal Reconnaissance Squadrons operated Ar-196A-3s from late 1943 under the Aufklärungsführer Schwazes Meer West..." (p. 42). The claim is also repeated made in an article in Air International magazine in January 1979 ("An eye for the Kriegsmarine: the Arado Ar 196". Air International. Vol. 16, no. 1. January 1979. pp. 25–31.), but the article was probably written by Green - Green was one of the editors of Air International at the time, and the wording is very similar to that used by Green in Warplanes of the Third Reich. While these are good sources (unlike Collin's, who has a reputation for sloppy hack work and nonsense (including strange fringe archaeology) they are also old and we should probably favour newer sources that will have had access to Eastern European archives for things like Romanian use. It is of course possible that any Romanian use may have been like what the Finnish use seems to have been - German aircraft temporarily loaned to the allied country while retaining German markings.Nigel Ish (talk) 10:48, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Arado Ar 196 Source

I added a source book to the bibliography and Denniss removed it. What is the rules regarding sources on Wikipedia? Is it a bad thing that I added a source? There was only ten books listed in the bibliography, is that the Wiki limit? Why would he/she deem my source book of no value? Do I need his/her permission to add books to bibliographies from now on? Troy von Tempest (talk) 03:33, 26 February 2024 (UTC)