Talk:Apostolic Faith Mission of South Africa

Apostolic Faith Church

Is the Apostolic Faith Church, formerly the Apostolic Faith Mission, founded by Florence L. Crawford affiliated with this church? Ltwin (talk) 00:40, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Later research has revealed that this is not affiliated with the Apostolic Faith Church. Ltwin (talk) 03:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Was the Doornfontein venue a Zionist Hall?

The orginal reference had the Doornfontein venue as a Zionist hall before the services moved on to Bree Street. The AFM 1908-2008 reference had it they rented a Doornfontein hall and then moved on to the Bree street venue which was a Zionist venue. It would be good if we can have a third reference unrelated to these two to verify the facts. My guess is the AFM 1908-2008 reference should carry slightly more weight as it is an AFM publication. ShiningWolf (talk) 09:29, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Apostolic Faith Mission of South Africa/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Pyrotec (talk · contribs) 09:29, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I will review. Pyrotec (talk) 09:29, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Initial comments

I've had a quick look at this nomination, but I've not checked any references, etc, on this basis the article appears to be at or about GA-level.

I'm now undertaking a more detailed review: starting at the History section, working down to the end and then doing the WP:Lead last. This process may take a day or so. Pyrotec (talk) 10:13, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

• History -
  • Early history: 1908-1912 -

• Y Pyrotec (talk) 18:37, 23 June 2012 (UTC) - In the first paragraph it states (and it's referenced): "First, revivals in the Dutch Reformed Church (DRC) in 1860, 1874 and 1884 ....". OK, but what does this have to do with South Africa (It's not at all clear)? For example, were these revivals in the DRC in South Africa, the DRC was active in South Africa, etc, etc?
• Otherwise, OK.

• • 1913-1969: Divisions, institutionalization, accommodation -

• The first sentence of the first paragraph states: "The return of Lake and Hezmalhalch to America was an important turning point for the AFM." It's rather vague, when did they return to the US?
• Otherwise, OK.

• • Recent history -

• Looks OK.

• Beliefs -

• Ref 19 is not fully referenced. It has a named publisher, but that is not given in the citation.

• Worship -

• Ref 20 is a book. The relevant page or page numbers should be given in the citation.
• Otherwise, OK.

• Organization -

• Looks OK.

...stopping for now. To be continued. Pyrotec (talk) 10:54, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

• Theological Training -

• The term or abbreviation AFMTS is used without explanation.
• Otherwise, OK.

• WP:Lead -

• This is intended to both introduce the article and to provide a summary of the main points.
• It's good at introducing the article, but it does not provide a particularly good summary. In respect of the "summary aspect": the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic. I'm not sure that it does.
• It includes two statements "It is a member of the Apostolic Faith Mission International, a fellowship of 23 AFM national churches. It is also a member of the South African Council of Churches.[5]" that are not mentioned in the body of the article, but I'm willing to "overlook this".

At this point, I'm putting the review On Hold for these points to be addressed. Pyrotec (talk) 21:40, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Closing review

The nominator has been inactive on Wikepedia since 7th April 2012, but did respond to an email on 11th June 2012. There are still outstanding comments above, but these are not sufficient to cause me to withhold GA. I'm therefore closing this review and awarding the article GA-status. Pyrotec (talk) 18:37, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Number of members

This article claims the AFM has 1.2 million members, but the 2001 census only counted 246,000 members. The article's claim is cited to the AFM website; I am more inclined to follow statistics from an outside organization than those produced by the AFM itself. Thoughts? - htonl (talk) 16:07, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

John G. Lake

Today (19 Oct '14) I restored this passage: "New scientific analysis of John Lake's life and work at the Apostolic Faith Mission is critical about his motives. Barry Morton states: "An analysis of the missionary career of John G. Lake shows that the initial spread of Pentecostalism and Zionism in southern Africa was facilitated by the systematic use of fraud and deception."[19] " The reason for the earlier removal by User:Ltwin was: "While this source may be very interesting and have valuable information, all we are told is that Pentecostalism is based on fraud and deception" I disagree. Ltwins words are a clear misconception of my (sourced) information, namely Barry Morton: '‘The Devil Who Heals’: Fraud and Falsification in the Evangelical Career of John G Lake, Missionary to South Africa 1908–1913'. In: African Historical Review, 44:2 (2012), pag.98-118. Morton is not saying that Pentacostalism is based on fraud and deception, but he proves that John G. Lake, one of the founders of the Apostolic Faith Mission of South Africa, was using fraud and deception. Among Morton's examples are misappropriating the AFM's funds and staging miraculous healings. If sources are available that contradict this sourced information, do not hesitate to add the information. Vysotsky (talk) 15:57, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

You cannot provide a quote by Barry Morton that begins with "An analysis of the missionary career of John G. Lake" and ends with "facilitated by the systematic use of fraud and deception" without providing any of the details of Morton's analysis. All you have told readers is that John G. Lake used fraud and deception, which doesn't really tell the reader anything but Morton's own opinion. You have not provided any meaningful portion of Morton's analysis, you have just left the reader to come up with their own conclusion about what this "fraud and deception" might be. If you had written something like the following, I would not have reverted your edit:

According to Barry Morton, "An analysis of the missionary career of John G. Lake shows that the initial spread of Pentecostalism and Zionism in southern Africa was facilitated by the systematic use of fraud and deception". Morton cites examples of misappropriation of AFM funds and the staging of miraculous healings.[19]

However, you did not add any of this. Your original did not contribute to the quality of the article. Ltwin (talk) 18:05, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

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1913-1969 - Schisma to Latter Rain 1928 or 1927?

I have got no real evidence, but [1], [2] and [3] suggest that the schism to Latter Rain Mission in South Africa ocurred one year earlier (1927). Uliraush Uliraush (talk) 10:39, 23 June 2021 (UTC)