Talk:Apollodorus of Damascus

did you know?

this article needs to be heavily added on to its Wikipedia's worst article in comparison to how important this topic is The Heakes (talk) 21:09, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Apollodorus a Syrian? How come?

Even the article's own references state that Apollodorus was a Greek born in Syria. Wikisource and the 11th edition of Britannica (from which this article heavily copies) state that

“ APOLLODORUS, of Damascus, a famous Greek architect ”

Finally, as it is mentioned below, Apollodorus comes from a very common ancient greek name, Απολλόδωρος [comes from the words Απόλλων (Apollo, the greek god) and δώρον (gift)].

If he was a Syrian, why was he named after a greek name? Moumouza (talk) 20:08, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Apollodorus of Damascus was a Roman architect born in Damascus (Syria). About the Greek origin the situation is unclear. He worked under Roman Emperor Trajan.

Every single source I turn to label Apollodorus as a "Greek". Everything you say beyond that is a POV, so please, don't revert again. Miskin 12:42, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Is not a Greek. Use please the information source.

Sorry but I think you have a biased personal agenda on the subject, and the sources don't agree [1] Miskin 12:54, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

"Nel 76-77 d.C. il padre del futuro imperatore, M. Ulpio Traiano, era stato governatore della Siria (legatus pro praetore Syriae), provincia in cui lo stesso Traiano aveva soggiornato nel 73-74 oppure nel 75-76, all'età di venti o ventidue anni, come tribunus legionis. E’ ben probabile quindi che il padre dell’architetto sia entrato nella clientela di Traiano padre, mentre questi era in Siria. Apollodoro dovrebbe essere nato intorno all'anno 60 d.C., e forse fu introdotto a Roma da Traiano già nel 91, quando era console ordinario, per essere impiegato nell'attuazione dei programmi domizianei di intenso rinnovamento edilizio della città.

Nonostante il nome greco, Apollodoro era dunque un Siriano di origine anellenica."

So is a Syrian having Elenic origin.

Yes, at that time, very possibly. Miskin 16:09, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

The term "Syrian Greek" is also used for the Hellenistic and Roman age. I think you need to refresh your history as well as your sources. The word "Syrian" describes a geographical origin, not an ethnic one, deal with it and get on with your life. This is by the way the English wikipedia, and we tend to communicate in that language. Miskin 14:35, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

The name Apollodorus is a greek name meaning "Gift of Apollo" and has been a name of many famous Greeks of the old times. Moreover his famous book "Πολιορκητικά" it was written in Greek. It is widely known that after the greek expedition of Alexander the Great and the following creation of the four Hellinistic States, many Héllenes (Greeks) settled in them. One of the Kindom was that of the Dynastie of Seulekides. King Seulecos so as to honour his father Antiochus gave his father's name to the city called Antiochia in Syria. When we arrive to Roman times, the regions of Syria and Palestine are inhabited also by Greeks who had built their own cities or settled to existed ones. Apollodorus was a Greek born, Roman citizen, at the town of Damascus,Syria, part of the Roman Empire at that time. Someone one the page for Apollodorus is mentioning Syrian with the link [2], but even the link [2] Brittanica says :"Damascus-born Greek engineer and architect who worked primarily for the Roman emperor Trajan (reigned 98–117)..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Demetrius9 (talk • contribs) 12:59, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

a geek born in Syria, sounds like we have a Syrian Greek. Plus it

seems to be the best compromise while being factual.The Heakes 20:49, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

According to historical sources he has no greek ethnic background and barely spoke the language after living there for a few years later in life. He was only greek in the sense that he was born in an area that was conquered by Alexander the Great several hundred years prior. Similar to calling someone with an ethnic Afghan, Persian or Egyptian background for "greek" even though they never had any family settled in Greece and don't know the language. Apollodurus was only greek in that sense, nobody in his family ever settled in Greece before him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.203.126.35 (talk) 07:53, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Misuse of sources

This article has been edited by a user who is known to have misused sources to unduly promote certain views (see WP:Jagged 85 cleanup). Examination of the sources used by this editor often reveals that the sources have been selectively interpreted or blatantly misrepresented, going beyond any reasonable interpretation of the authors' intent.

Diffs for each edit made by Jagged 85 are listed at Cleanup6. It may be easier to view the full history of the article.

A script has been used to generate the following summary. Each item is a diff showing the result of several consecutive edits to the article by Jagged 85, in chronological order.

• Apollodorus of Damascus: [1][2][3]

Johnuniq (talk) 23:48, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Apollodorus is Syrian not Greek

someone is vandalizing this page since a decade a adding false sources to claim he's Greek when he's a Syrian of Nabataeans heritage.

All the verified sites and pages indicate apollodorus is syrian: https://kids.kiddle.co/Apollodorus_of_Damascus

So why Wikipedia allows vandalism in the English version? We are waiting for stricter measures if Wikipedia wants to be trusted and taken seriously. <IP removed> 11:46, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi there, using reliable sources is not vandalism. Encyclopedia Britannica is a very reliable source, which does reference the Greek heritage of Apollodorus of Damascus. Syria during his time was part of the Greco-Roman world. He was Greek, no matter how much some people dislike that fact. Facts can't be ignored. Gramaic | Talk 19:57, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

"Very reliable" is a bit strong; EB is okay but it's not exactly the highest quality source. Brill's New Pauly, which is the standard reference encyclopedia for the classics, calls him "Engineer and military architect of the Roman imperial period"; the Grove Encyclopedia of Classical Art and Architecture calls him a Roman architect. Unless reliable specialist sources call him either Greek or Syrian, I would be inclined to follow their lead and go with something simple and unarguable such as "architect from Roman Damascus" Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 21:38, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes true, Britannica is not a very reliable source to base an ethnic claim entirely on, According to WP:RSP there is no consensus on whether it's reliable or not. It's a tertiary source.

The following four sources were previously used to support the claim that he was Arab/Syrian. As can be seen from this revision

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Apollodorus_of_Damascus&oldid=1135262421

The Unity and Diversity of the Mediterranean World by George Sorton Osiris. 2: 406-463 [430]. published by The University of Chicago Press

Second source: Giuliana Calcani, Maamoun Abdulkarim (2003), Apollodorus of Damascus and Trajan's Column: From Tradition to Project, L'Erma di Bretschneider, p. 11, ISBN 88-8265-233-5, ...focusing on the brilliant architect Apollodorus of Damascus. This famous Syrian personage represents...

Third source:  Hong-Sen Yan, Marco Ceccarelli (2009), International Symposium on History of Machines and Mechanisms: Proceedings of HMM 2008, Springer, p. 86, ISBN 978-1-4020-9484-2, He had Syrian origins coming from Damascus

Springer is a very reliable book publishing company

Also, this source which was removed by @Gramaic

Landart, Paula (2015-01-22). Finding Ancient Rome: Walks in the city. Paula Landart.

Other reliable sources that say he was Syrian/Arab:

This Oxford book calls him Syrian: https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/acref/9780198605683.001.0001/acref-9780198605683-e-0047

This study calls him a Nabatean ( page 1) Published by HAL (open archive), Science direct, and Semantic Scholar. All of which are reliable sources.

"The Pantheon is probably the joint work of Hadrian and of the Nabatean great architect Apollodorus of Damascus"

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1350630718302668

This academic book by professor to

Edward Togo Salmon

, calls him syrian. Publsihed by Taylor & Francis Group

A History of the Roman World, 348-356, 2013

"which the Syrian architect Apollodorus had built: some of its stone pillars are still standing"

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=Apollodorus+nabatean&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1703247777987&u=%23p%3Diu9Vi_qiw50J

Whatsupkarren (talk) 13:16, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

We have our differences on the reliability of Encyclopedia Britannica. I view it as reliable, while others might disagree with my view. However, we can all agree that the Encyclopedia Britannica is an acceptable source. I rewrote the section regarding his ethnicity in more neutral terms, including all sources from all views (those claiming him as Greek, and those claiming him as Nabataean). I also added a new source from the old writer and historian, Lawrence B. Phillips, that refers to him as Greek. Whether some people like it or not, there are credible sources that refer to him as Greek, and we cannot simply remove a source, and deem it as 'unreliable' just because we don't like what is being said. We must be npov, and equally represent all views of history.

Gramaic | Talk 07:36, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

@Gramaic

Do you have reliable academic sources to support your claim?

The sources I've provided are much more reliable than yours. They are peer-reviewed publications. Per WP:VERIFY

"If available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources on topics such as history, medicine, and science"

That doesn't apply to the sources you provided

Also not sure why you think that just because a book was written 200 years ago it becomes reliable! It's preferred to avoid these per WP:AGE MATTERS.

If you're only gonna use Britannica and and a +century old book that is not academic nor written by academic person and is basically a self published book, which Wikipedia tells us not to use, ( I mean who was this person ? ) then I dont think your claim can be included in the article per WP:UNDUE and WP:YESPOV Since that could create a false parity

Whatsupkarren (talk) 14:50, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I do have other reliable and peer-reviewed sources, not just Britannica and the article by Lawrence Phillips.

Here are more peer-reviewed sources that are quite reliable that reference the Greek heritage of Apollodorus of Damascus:

Georgakopoulos, Konstantinos. (1998). Ancient Greek Scientists. Georgiades Publications. Athens.

Kotsanas, Kostas. (2013) Ancient Greek Technology The Inventions of the ancient Greeks. Kostas Kotsanas Publications. Pyrgos.

You said,

"The sources I've provided are much more reliable than yours."

My response: That is just your opinion, and is a pov stance. In all fairness both our sources are equally as reliable, but have a differing opinion on the ethnicity of Apollodorus of Damascus.

Also you said,

"Also not sure why you think that just because a book was written 200 years ago it becomes reliable!"

My response: Just because something is old doesn't necessarily make it irrelevant. That century year old source referred to his Greek identity, and the newer and more modern sources that I provided also reference his Greek heritage. Reference to Apollodorus of Damascus being Greek isn't something that was documented well over a century ago, but the newer sources that I provided also say the same thing.

As for your skepticism of Britannica not being a reliable source regarding Apollodorus of Damascus, it was written and edited by scholars and historians that are more qualified and knowledgeable than the both of us.

Here is the list of the scholars and historians that wrote about him:

britannica.com/biography/Apollodorus-of-Damascus/additional-info#history

So dear friend, we must make accept, compromise, and make peace that there are sources that claim him as both Greek, and claim him as Nabataean.

Merry Christmas,

Gramaic | Talk 22:49, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

@Gramaic why didn't you provide links to the sources you've provided? And can you tell us how are these sources peer reviewed? Please provide the exact pages where they say he was green

Moreover, the sources you provided are definitely and according to wiki:verifiability not equal to my sources. The two sources you just gave seem to be written by authors who are not academians, so why are they reliable sources? Can you tell us ? Whatsupkarren (talk) 12:59, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Okay, friend. Here are two reliable sources that are academic and more modern. One is called, "Historical Dictionary of Architecture," by Allison Lee Palmer which was published in 2016, on page 48 of this book, it references the Greek identity of Apollodorus of Damascus on page 48. The second source I provided is titled, "Ancient Rome," by William E. Dunstan which was published in 2011, on page 565 of this book in the index, the Greek identity of Apollodorus of Damascus is also referenced.

Here are the links to them:

[2]https://www.google.com/books/edition/Historical_Dictionary_of_Architecture/aMsvDAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=apollodorus+of+damascus+Greek&pg=PA48&printsec=frontcover

[3]https://www.google.com/books/edition/Ancient_Rome/xkOhwFzz1AkC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=apollodorus+of+damascus+Greek&pg=PA565&printsec=frontcover

So dear friend, I provided you the links of the sources, along with their respective page numbers that clearly mention a Greek identity.

Your sources are acceptable, but not unequal to mine, as you like to keep insisting.

With all due respect, I did not fail to provide academic sources like you claimed while you were reediting the section.

To be as fair and neutral as possible, it must be acknowledged that there are reliable and academic sources that claim him as Greek, and claim him as Nabataean.

Gramaic | Talk 06:35, 2 January 2024 (UTC)