Talk:Apalachin meeting

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Mobbed up?[edit]

Genovese called the meet, maybe, but the way I heard it, it was arranged by Russell Bufalino (a subtle distinction, to be sure...). Trekphiler 06:19, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Film portrayal?[edit]

Wasn't this portrayed in Casino, Goodfellas, or something like that? Kent Wang 06:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It was not shown in either movie, although Apalachin was referred to briefly in Goodfellas, where Henry Hill (Ray Liotta) mentions in a narration that life in the Mob was okay and largely worry-free "before Joey Gallo and Apalachin." Robert Mercer 19:13, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There's also a mafia movie that starts with a bunch of people running away from a big meeting in the country, almost certainly the Apalachin. I've seen so many mafia films I sometimes get them mixed up. Maybe it's The Last Don? Kent Wang 18:02, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Film the scene was portrayed in was the comedy "Analyze This" with Robert Deniro and Billy Crystal. The scene was referenced as the Apalachin Meeting. edip1976

List of Appalachian detainees[edit]

1957 Apalachin Meeting Detainees:

"(I don't think Civella was detained)"

Alexbonaro 03:09, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV[edit]

and ethnic prejudice cf. "italian descent"

I furthermore ask whether if is legitimate to call a person a "Mob figure" or like like, unless there is documentation available--and then the source canbe briefly quoted, ratherthzan the editor asserting it. There is no documentation here.DGG 04:03, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

a good change, but you've still got "italian descent" I think it's factually correct, however.DGG 03:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC).[reply]
  • DGG,
I've reformatted the article, in particular the references and external links sections, which should resolve the verification issue.
Regarding your opinion on the POV, the American-based Mafia (or "La Cosa Nostra" if you prefer) predominantly consists of Italian-Americans just as any other organized group (see Jewish, African-American, Greek and Irish Mobs). With exception to the Chicago Outfit among other crime syndicates, a key requirement for recruitment and membership has traditionally been for those of Italian ethnicity (although mobsters such as Frank Salemme and others of mixed ancestry appear to have high ranking positions). I don't seem to notice any statement in the article which negatively portrays Italian-Americans to the point of ethnic prejudice. If you have some spare time, could you possibly point out an example ? MadMax 00:54, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with MadMax. Unfortunately, most mafiosi are of Italian descent, or rather Sicilian descent. On the other hand, many of the most courageous Mafia adversaries where of Sicilian descent as well, and they lost their life doing so: to name a few Giovanni Falcone, Paolo Borsellino, Cesare Terranova. Mafia Expert 16:31, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
...or Italian-American police officers such as Joseph Petrosino, Amedeo Polignani, Charles Cavolo or more recently Ralph Salerno. MadMax 19:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Participant Identification Problems[edit]

I'm doing achival research in New York State on this very subject (the collection I'm researching includes investigative records and criminal dossiers on dozens of the participants), and I can confirm that the bulk of the prinicipal 55-60 participants did in fact have criminal records; it is also accurate to call them "Italian-American" or to say that they were of "Italian descent," since many were actually born of Italian parents in the U.S., not Italy. However, there are relatively few published sources that document the criminal backgrounds of the "lesser" participants (I'm working on that), as most discussions of this event concentrate only on the very top 8-10 Apalachin attendees, principally the major figures from New York City.

In any case, I'd like to point out that there is no basis for a number of assertions regarding the affiliation of several of the lesser Apalachin participants. Specifically:

  • Rosario Mancuso was an underling of Joseph and Salvatore Falcone, not a member of the "Pittson/Scranton Barbera Family" (also, I'd note that the name is "Barbara," as presented in the body of the entry, not "Barbera," as it appears in the notations on several attendees).
  • There is absolutely no documentary evidence that the Falcone brothers were underlings of the Valente brothers of Rochester. They were at that time either independent operators or subordinate to, if to anyone, Steve Magaddino of Buffalo. The Falcones, the record shows, were actually more closely aligned to Barbara and participants from the southern tier of New York State than they were to Valentes in the 1950s.

Regarding the statement that "a passing state trooper became curious why there were so many luxury cars parked at Barbara's home," that is an old but not strictly true story. State Trooper Edgar Croswell had been keeping an eye on Barbara's activities throughout the preceding year. A smaller mob gathering had been held at Barbara's house in 1956, and Croswell had become aware that something suspicious had been going on there at that time because Carmine Galante, the later Bonanno Family boss, was caught speeding in the vicinity at the time of the 1956 meeting (among other things, Galante was driving without a license at the time, but more significant was the fact that Croswell discovered that Galante had a very extensive criminal record in New York City). Then, in 1957, Croswell had noticed Barbara's son making arrangements for hotel rooms in the area around Apalachin, which made him suspicious some days before he saw the luxury cars lined up around Barbara's house.

One last point is that, whoever called and arranged the meeting, Steve Magaddino gave clearance for it to happen specifically in Apalachin, as was proven in a wiretapped phone conversation between Magaddino and Chicago boss Sam Giancana, in which Magaddino expressed regret at letting a mob conference take place two years in a row at Apalachin, something he should have known was risky. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Prox82 (talk • contribs).


There has been and still is much confusion over affiliations between Pittston/Scranton and Buffalo family members, because of the overlap in territory and associations between groups and individuals

The fact is that the Falcones and Mancuso were most defiantly underlings of Maggadino, and in fact, so was Velente.

The Falcones were the heads of what later became known as the “Falange crew” , the Utica NY based crew of the Buffalo family

The existence of a “Rochester family” under Velente was a media induced myth. There was an attempt made later by breakaway members, fed by the Pittston and Pittsburg families, resulting in the “Alphabet war” to break away from Buffalo, but in fact, there was never to this day, a separate Rochester “family —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.160.5.25 (talk) 20:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]



Verify: Narcotics[edit]

The article says: "Boss Joseph Bonanno and other American Mob representatives had recently returned from an Oct.1957 U.S.-Sicilian Mafia Summit in Palermo, Sicily concerning whether or not to begin joint narcotics operations between the U.S. and Sicilian Mafias."

Narcotics, or to be more precise, heroin was smuggled to the US from Sicily (and Marseilles) before the talks of Bonanno and Sicilian mafiosi. It is incorrect to say "whether or not to begin joint narcotics operations" because there were already several joint heroin trafficking operations. Maybe some restructuring has been discussed - but we don't know. Moreover, heroin trafficking was not organised top down by any Mafia Commission, but rather bottom up by traffickers in Mafia families who relied on protection from the family. The article relies too much on the book by Claire Sterling, which is considered not very reliable by many historians. I quote:

(...) the works of the late Claire Sterling. She achieved a degree of fame by peddling nonsense about a global cartel of terrorist groups taking their marching orders from Moscow (1981), and as perestroika killed the market for anti-Communist hyperbole she deftly switched to portraying the Sicilian Mafia as the new alien threat to Judeo-Christian Civilization (1990). Then, with the fall of Communism and the disintegration of the Soviet Union, the new theme became the rise of a Russian Mafia made up of black-marketeers, ex-KGB agents and old apparachniks in league with Colombian "cartels" and Mafia families to carve up the whole world into criminal spheres of influence (1994). [1] Mafia Expert 16:00, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, the Sicilian "La Cosa Nostra" does not exist, see the relevant section in the Mafia#Origin of the term article. The article also claims that "This was one of the most important topics to be discussed by the attendees, being that what was about to be discussed and proposed between the La Cosa Nostra Families of North America and Europe would build a global narcotics empire that would create staggering amounts of money and immense power to those who are in control of this colossus." There are no references and sources to back this up. Seems to me this is the personal opinion of one of the writers and does not fit the verifiability standards WP:VERIFY. Mafia Expert 12:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Huge clean-up needed[edit]

This article is hopelessly unreadable. One of the authors, Little Joe Shots, in fact tries to rewrite the history of the American Cosa Nostra (or rather his version of it) and does not limit himself to the actual, aborted, meeting in Apalachin. He also does not mention his sources, does not check his grammar and spelling, nor has the courtesy to properly wikify the links. I propose that the article to be reverted to the version before the article was trashed by this person. -- Mafia Expert 17:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Article Cleanup Co-Ordination Point[edit]

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Discussion[edit]

Well, the first two points are certainly true, but the article is not too short. On the contrary, it is much too long and contains information that belongs in articles about the people discussed in this article or other related issues. - Mafia Expert 21:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Let me point out some errors in this paragraph from alleged attendees --

A Representative of the St. Louis Family - Anthony "Tony" Lopiparo, Ralph "Shorty" Caleca, Anthony "Tony G." Giordano and John "Johnny V." Vitale

Lopiparo was originally a member of the Kansas City Family and came to St. Louis with their backing in the 1940s and became Boss soon afterward, he reigned until he died in 1960 and was succeeded by Tony Giordano. Lopiparo, Caleca, Giordano and Vitale were all top members of the St. Louis Family in the 1950s, Lopiparo and Caleca were the older, senior Family members and would most likely have sent a substitute to represent St. Louis at Apalachin in 1957. Giordano was sent to prison for 4 years in 1956 and was not available in 1957, Vitale was most likely the representative sent to Apalachin if St. Louis was represented.

Tony Lopiparo died in prison in 1961. Tony Giordano was in prison at that time so John Vitale briefly took command until Giordano's release from prison in 1962. Tony Lopiparo, Tony Giordano and Ralph Caleca were indicted for income-tax evasion in 1956, but were not convicted for it until 1958. The case lingered for two years and they were sent to prison for it after their conviction in 1958. Giordano served four years until 1962, as was already mentioned. So Tony Giordano could have actually been available to attend the meeting. However, there is no evidence that either he, Lopiparo, Vitale, or Caleca did actually attend it. More than likely, however, one of them did attend to respresent St. Louis, but again, there's no evidence to suggest that they did.

I've done some minor proofreading regarding spelling and grammar so at least that issue should be resolved, although there are numerous internal links and redundant statements throughout the article. MadMax 23:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the grammar and spelling (also, the spelling of "grammar"  :) ) continue to be huge problems in this article. Some sentences open with independent clauses and then simply stop. Others inexplicably have commas mid-phrase. Does someone have the time to fix this? Also, it's rife with conjecture right now. The section dismissing the conspiracy theories behind why Costello, et al might not have tipped off the cops simply riffs along on conjectural theory; nary a shred of solid evidence is offered in this very long section. Thoughts? Patchyreynolds 14:42, 13 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In my defense, the article has been rewritten substantially during the last few months since my last edits. However, there are major problems regarding pov, tone, etc. The majority does seems to be more questionable given the lack of specific citations and references. MadMax 10:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sources[edit]

According to several references, here is what I have for the Apalachin Meeting (or Conference):

  1. Carl Sifakis's "The Mafia Encyclopedia" claims that "by most theories" the meeting was to discuss Vito Genovese regarding the gangland slaying of Albert Anastasia and his gang war against rival Frank Costello. Following the raid of Barbara's estate by New York state police, 58 mobsters were detained the majority being from New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania although members of Florida, Texas, California, Illinois and Ohio were also present. Of the 58 arrseted, 50 had arrest records, 35 had prior convictions and 23 had served prison sentences.
  2. Stephen Fox's "Blood and Power: Organized Crime in Twentieth-Century America" states that of the 58 gangsters, although half of the were immigrants, all participants were Italian. Although the majority were from the Northeast and Midwest, several organized crime figures were Florida, Texas, Colorado, California, and Cuba. Among those suspected to have fled the meeting and later placed in the area included James Lanza of San Francisco, Thomas Lucchese (the sole leader of the Five Families not present at the meeting) and three members of the "national Mafia Commission" Sam Giancana (Chicago), Stefano Magadino (Buffalo) and Joe Zerilli (Detroit).
  3. Nicholas Gage's "Mafia, U.S.A." supports Sifakis's claims regarding the discussion of Vito Genovese's campaign against Frank Costello and the gangland murders of Anastasia and Frank Scalise. Gage also states that Barbara had been under causual survailance by a New York State Police sergeant, Edgar D. Croswell, on and off for several years. Croswell had been looking into a bad check case when he noticed a large amoount of reservations being made at Barbara's hotel and, noting a previous meeting the previous year, and investigated Barbara's estate along with another officer and two agents of the Treasury Department's Alcohol & Tobacco Tax Unit before the raid. They eventually identified 63 organized crime figures although they only found 58 at the raid. Additional reasons for the meeting were the discussions of the Narcotics Control Act of 1956 and the losses of non-union garment industry labor preserve built up in eastern Pennsylvania. These shops, which were either non-union or had arrainged sweetheart contracts with several local chapters of the Anthracite Workers labor union, were now becoming the target of an aggressive union organizing campaign.

Cleanup Progress[edit]

I had tried to clean up and source the conspiracy theory section a bit; my main source is The Mafia Encyclopedia, but unfortunately, that seems to take the conspiracy theory for granted as fact, and makes passing references to "revelations made by" Luciano and Stacher but I don't know where those came from. I tried to even out the tone and remove some of the speculation/original research. (Note that Siakis makes the claim that people like Lanksy and Stacher were invited, while I've seen other sources claim that none of the Jewish Mafia were invited, but I don't have any good references to cite there. Maybe I should go pick up Fox's book :) ) Kutulu (talk) 19:35, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fixup[edit]

Did a bit of mucking around and rewrote some 'weasel words' sections. Hopefully a bit more readable now although the paragraphs are still extremely long-winded. -- Ghostreveries 11:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Non-weaselly[edit]

As far as I noted, this article does not use unwarranted weasel words. Many Mafia-related facts are genuinely unknown, and adding reasonable qualifying words to some of these statements does not rise (IMHO) to the level of weaseling. Thus, weasel-word tag removed. Jed 14:44, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Illiterate Spellings[edit]

This article needs to be cleaned up with correct spelling and grammar. I have tried to correct spellings. This meeting was held in the Applachian Mountains which is why this was called the Appalachian Meeting. However, I do not know who to correct the title spellings. While the knowledge of the subject matter seems ok ---the grammar and spellings are attrocious~~lvb

The name of the place it was held was Apalachin, New York. Alansohn (talk) 05:12, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Restore to previous version[edit]

This article is still a hopeless mess: unreferenced, unverifiable and full of original research. It does not meet WP:VERIFY and WP:NOR. I proprose to restore it to the version of 5 October 2006, before it was butchered by User:Little Joe Shots. From there it can be expanded and rewritten again. - Mafia Expert (talk) 16:15, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

National Crime Syndicate versus the mafia[edit]

There is a great deal of confusion in this article and other articles on this subject. They often make the assumption that the Italian-American mafia and the so-called "National Crime Syndicate" are the same thing. There is scant evidence to suggest a "national crime syndicate" ever existed and if one did exist, it had nothing to do with Apalachin which was an American mafia meeting. 70.234.209.126 (talk) 02:08, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of "suspected" attendees[edit]

I removed a long list of suspected attendees to the Apalachin meeting that had no sources cited. I'll post the section here if anyone can find some sources for inclusion.Shinerunner (talk) 22:39, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Suspected Mafiosi attendees[edit]

Suspected Mafiosi at the Apalachin summit on November 14, 1957 included:

Name Association Position Notes
Carmine "Lilo" Galante Bonanno crime family Underboss Carmine Galante was one of the most important attendees at the Palermo, Sicily, Hotel des Palmes Summit the past October 14-October 17 and would be important to the Apalachin Summit, as he was the U.S. La Cosa Nostra's Montreal "representation" for all narcotics operations being directed through the port city. Identified as a guest staying at the estate by Joe Barbara's housekeeper. Galante had also been stopped and arrested by Pennsylvania police on October 17, 1956, allegedly coming from a meeting at Barbara's estate.
Frank "Frank Carrol" Garofalo Former underboss Frank Garofalo was semi-retired in Sicily as of 1956 and returned specifically for the Apalachin Summit, having been one of the attendees at the Palermo, Sicily-Hotel des Palmes Summit on October 14–17 and would have briefed the bosses on the outcome of the Palermo Summit. Garofalo was registered at a local motel.
Gaspar "Gasparino" DiGregorio Caporegime Brother-in-law of Buffalo Family Boss Stefano Magaddino, registered at local motel.
Joseph "Joe Bandy" Biondo Gambino crime family Underboss Former Albert Anastasia Consigliere who conspired to kill Anastasia with Carlo Gambino and Joseph Riccobono. He was expected to explain the reasons for the Anastasia hit and the current situation between the new Anastasia/Gambino Family hierarchy and that the faction still loyal to Anastasia.
Gaetano "Tommy Brown" Lucchese Lucchese crime family Boss Lucchese and his allies supported Carlo Gambino and his assassination of Albert Anastasia and ascension to Boss of the Family.
Stefano "Steve" LaSalle Underboss Supported Carlo Gambino and his assassination of Albert Anastasia and ascension to Boss of the Family.
Aniello "Niel" Migliore Lucchese's top aide He was in a car accident driving through Binghamton the next day. He was most likely on his way to pick up Lucchese and LaSalle.
Stefano "The Undertaker" Magaddino Buffalo crime family Boss Commission member who helped Vito Genovese arrange the Summit at Barbara's house; his clothes contained his name in them when they were found in a car in Joseph Barbara's barn.
Salvatore "Momo" Giancana Chicago Outfit Boss He had just recently been promoted to Boss of the Outfit by former Boss and new Consigliere, Anthony "Joe Batters" Accardo. Giancana would take this opportunity to meet with all the other Family Bosses and introduce his new underboss, Ferraro.
Frank "Strongy" Ferraro Underboss See above
Joseph "Joe Z." Zerilli Detroit Partnership Boss Zerilli was not yet at the Barbara estate as he was running late. He used his driver’s license to rent a car in the Binghamton area and used it to get home on November 14.
Anthony "Tony Jack" Giacalone Caporegime
Nicholas "Nick" Civella Kansas City crime family Boss Identified by a local business owner as one of two men who used his phone to call a taxi.
Joseph Filardo Caporegime Identified by a local business owner as one of two men who used his phone to call a taxi.
James "Jimmy the Hat" Lanza San Francisco crime family Underboss Lanza was registered at a local motel with San Jose Family Underboss, Joseph Cerrito.
John Sebastian "John LaRock" LaRocca Pittsburgh crime family Boss Was registered at the local Arlington Motel with his two Capos, Michael Genovese and Gabriel "Kelly" Mannarino, their bills charged to Barbara's Canada Dry Bottling Company.
Joseph "Joe" Cerrito San Jose crime family Underboss Cerrito was registered at a local motel with San Francisco Boss, James Lanza.
Frank "Frankie Bal" Balistrieri Milwaukee crime family Underboss Was registered at a local motel. Balistrieri uses the Apalachin Summit to introduce himself to all the Bosses from across the United States.
Joseph Zammuto Rockford, IL crime family Underboss Zammuto was registered at a local motel. The Rockford family is a Chicago Outfit faction.
Charles "Curly" Montana Cleveland crime family Caporegime Was registered at a local motel with Boss John Scalish.
Joseph "Joe" Campisi Dallas crime family Underboss Campisi was registered at a local motel with Boss Joe Civello, who was detained at Barbara's estate.
Vincenzo "Vince" Colletti Colorado Colletti crime family Underboss Brother to James "Black Jim" Colletti's brother. Vincenzo was registered with James at a local motel, he escapes the police at Barbara's estate.
Alfred "Al" Angelicola New Jersey area La Cosa Nostra member Angelicola was registered at a local motel with other known mafiosi, his Family affiliation was not known.
Luigi "Louis" Greco Cotroni family Underboss Was suspected to be at the summit to discuss the Sicilians taking control of the importation of narcotics while the U.S. La Cosa Nostra would handle wholesale distribution.
Giuseppe "Pep" Cotroni Caporegime
Giuseppe "Don Giuseppe" Settecasi Sicilian province of Agrigento Boss Don Giuseppe Settecase was sent over as a representative of the Sicilian La Cosa Nostra Clans wishing to export narcotics to the United States. After the Apalachin Summit, both the Canadian and Sicilian La Cosa Nostra were heard talking on Royal Canadian Mounted Police and FBI wiretaps about how embarrassed the American La Cosa Nostra looked to their peers for the screw up at Apalachin.

Other suspected attendants[edit]

  • Joseph Barbara, Jr. — Northeastern Barbara family Soldier. He was the son of Joseph Sr. who handled most of the guest's hotel registrations. He was on his way to his home and the meeting site, but noticed the road block. He was questioned soon after at his family's bottling plant.
  • Anthony "Tony" Lopiparo, Ralph "Shorty" Caleca, and John "Johnny V." Vitale — The St. Louis crime family leaders at the time of the meeting. Lopiparo and Caleca were the older, senior Family members and would most likely have sent a substitute to represent St. Louis at Apalachin in 1957. Giordano was sent to prison for four years in 1956 and was not available in 1957, Vitale was most likely the representative sent to Apalachin if St. Louis was represented.
  • Louis "Lew Farrell" Fratto — Des Moines, Iowa crime boss (Chicago Outfit member and possible caporegime.) A likely attendee due to his vast mid west interests.[2]
  • Philip Buccola — Former New England crime family Boss based in Boston, MA. According to the Federal Bureau of Narcotics (FBN) Buccola was directly involved with American and Sicilian mafiosi regarding joint narcotics operations between Italy and North America and was observed arriving in Boston approximately two weeks prior to the Apalachin meeting. He was not one of the bosses detained in Apalachin, but the FBN speculate that Buccola's reason for traveling to the United States at this time was to confer with the various American mafia bosses attending the Apalachin meeting.

References

  1. ^ http://howardstern.com/rundown.hs?j=n&d=1323666000
  2. ^ Son Johnny Fratto stated on the Howard Stern Radio Show 12/13/2011 his father attended at the behest of Tony Accardo.[1]

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