Talk:Antonio Bajamonti

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2 problems[edit]

1) Josip/Giuseppe. The man may well have been called "Giuseppe", however, since he was from a Dalmatian noble family, you are required to source that. Croatian names are used by default. I propose a compromise, though, how about "Josip (Giuseppe) Bajamonti"?
2) Krušević. How Antonio called his wife is of no concern to Wikipedia. None. Krušević is a Croatian family, I am absolutely adamant here, Split names will not be Italianized for no cause.
(If this is you, Luigi, I will find out, and have both your IP ranges blocked.)
--DIREKTOR (TALK) 13:57, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1. The name in the article was "Giuseppe" (you can read "Giuseppe" also in Keckemet's book about Bajamonti!). You changed it in "Josip". Provide your sources.
2. You changed the name of his wife, without discussion. I simply added the previus name between brackets.
Do you want the edit-warring? Go away.--87.28.126.85 (talk) 14:04, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1. Yes, I did, I apologize. You've mentioned a (non-Italian language) source we can use to make him an exception from the default spelling?
2. I did not "change" the name. It is painfully obvious she's a Slav. There is no need to Italianize Split names.
--DIREKTOR (TALK) 14:07, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please discuss this matter and work towards a compromise. "Do you want the edit-warring? Go away." - threatening me with edit-warring is not going to fly. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 14:14, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1. "Giuseppe" as exception from the default spelling? Right. The source is Duško Kečkemet's "Ante Bajamonti i Split" (Kečkemet used "Ante" - he explains - as the Croatian peasants of Split).
2. The name "Luigia Krussevich" is also in the Croatian article about Bajamonti!
Are you "more Croatian then Croats"?--87.28.126.85 (talk) 14:16, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1. Ok, how about "Giuseppe (Josip) Bajamonti"? (Can you actually provide this source?)
2. Sry, Wikipedia is not a source. Least of all the Croatian Wikipedia. I can't go back here.
"more Croatian then Croats"!? What!? Half my time here is spent dealing with the real Croatian nationalists. See my edits on Talk:Ante Pavelić, for example, before you start saying any more nonsense. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 14:37, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

a. Before I provide the source, I would like to know: when you wrote "Josip", do you had any source about this "Josip"? If your statement is simply "all the Dalmatian names must be in the Croatian form" (so it seems to me), I notice:
  1. Franz von Suppè
  2. Federico Seismit-Doda
  3. Enzo Bettiza
  4. Ottavio Missoni
  5. Tullio Crali
  6. Roberto Ghiglianovich
  7. Ercolano Salvi
All wrong names?
If you have any kind of source about "Josip Bajamonti" (father of absolutely Italian Antonio Bajamonti), please, provide here. Italian, English, Croatian, Russian, Mongolian source: I don't like people who said "I accept all the source except your source", like you (why don't you like Italian sources?).
b. I made an example: also in the Croatian article about Bajamonti, his wife's name was "Luigia Krussevich". I don't understand your problems.--87.28.126.85 (talk) 15:08, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
a. I told you about a dozen times: the names of Dalmatian NOBILITY (prominent houses) are written in Croatian rendering, unless contradicted by a source. (Not every single person ever to have been born in Dalmatia, only you could assume something as ridiculous as that.) Therefore, you must provide a source to justify an exception. I keep asking you: do you find "Giuseppe (Josip) Bajamonti" an acceptable compromise?
b. I do not care about the Croatian Wikipedia. You can forget about that completely: Wikipedia cannot be used as a source for Wikipedia. "Krušević" is an old Croatian name, its transliteration in this context is plain ridiculous and completely unacceptable. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 16:39, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A. About the Dalmatian nobility, we have a "Niccolò Trigari" (podestà of Zara), Italian irredentist; or a "Ferruccio de Michieli Vitturi" from Spalato (one of the richest Dalmatian families) who after the WWII was one of the founders of neofascistic Italian party called "MSI". Another Italian irredentist was Roberto Ghiglianovich, from Zara. I have a Croatian source about Trigari, de Michieli Vitturi and Ghiglianovich, who translates the names in Croatian. I'm used to see the most incredible things in this field: in Croatia I've read the translation in Croatian of the name of an Italian criminal of war, former chief of fascists of Sebenico (a certain Alacevich)! The question is: we have the most famous between the Italians of Dalmatia in 19th century: Antonio Bajamonti. Do you really think that his father was named "Josip"? Are you really sure? Do you have a single source about this fact? A single source? A-single-source? A s-i-n-g-l-e s-o-u-r-c-e?
B. About the Croatian Wikipedia, I repeat for the third time: I MADE AN EXAMPLE! If you note, YOU have some problems with "Luigia Krussevich". That's all.--87.28.126.85 (talk) 17:02, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A. You're not listening: there are many exceptions!!! Now then, can we please agree on "Giuseppe (Josip) Bajamonti"?
B. Well since Wikipedia is not a source, I'd say that was a very bad example of a source. Do you have any other?
--DIREKTOR (TALK) 17:34, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A. If you provide a single source about "Josip" (in Gaelic, Ellenic, Croatian, Hungarian, Chakavian, Aramaic, What-you-want), I agree.
B. About what? About Luigia Krussevich? I have the text of some letters from Antonio Bajamonti to his wife (a so-called primary source). Enough for you?--87.28.126.85 (talk) 18:24, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A. (Its "Hellenic", and Chakavian is a dialect of Croatian) Heh, here's your problem: since there are no sources for Giuseppe or Josip, the default should preferably be used. When referring to Dalmatian nobility, the default is the Slavic rendering. However, I personally feel that is unwarranted, as the man was probably more Italian than Slavic. Therefore, I am willing to leave him as Giuseppe, but with the addition of "(Josip)". Why do I ant to add "(Josip)"? 1) because Dalmatia is a Slavic province, 2) Dalmatians are Slavs in the vast majority. In recognition of these facts (facts that you guys never take into account when forming opinions), I believe that I cannot withdraw any further in this argument.
B. The letters are (probably) excellent sources, but if they are written in Italian I'm afraid they cannot be used in a linguistic discussion of this sort. The same would apply of they were written in Croatian or Serbian. I repeat, the name and family "Krušević" could not be more "Croatian". Its almost like transliterating "John Smith" into "Giovanni Smetta", I hope you understand. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 19:13, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A. Who said that "there are no sources for Giuseppe or Josip"? I repeat my question: you changed the article, do you have a single source about your previous edit? Boys, a single source, also Croatian! (then I'll show you my sources)
B. Who said that the letters coming from Antonio Bajamonti are written in Italian? Antonio wrote to his wife, maybe they used the Aramaic, or the Hellenic, or the Chakavian? You said the name and family "Krušević" could not be more "Croatian". Very well! Please, tell me something about Luigia Krussevich and his Cro-Cro-Cro-Croatian (four time Croatian!) family.
C. So you can define the ethnicity of someone from his surname? Incredible! You are better than DNA.--87.28.126.85 (talk) 19:32, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]


I am getting sick of this. You don't have to write anything, just show me the links. If there are no links, we go by default. If there are sources, we go by the sources. Its like I keep repeating from the start: you're not listening. You cannot "blackmail" me with your references, if you do not provide them then there are none (on Wikipedia, NATURALY). --DIREKTOR (TALK) 19:40, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Autonomous/Autonomist[edit]

http://books.google.cl/books?lr=&id=GOVJAAAAMAAJ&dq=dubrovnik+gondola&q=gondola&pgis=1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by :Gondola.Frano (talk • contribs) 17:41, 24 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Autonomist. I wrote the whole article in the it.wiki. See also Dieta della Dalmazia. I wrote also this article. But you have to know that the party neither existed as a structure, nor had its own management team defined. Bajamonti created its own club of supporters called "Liberals". There was no official name "Partito Autonomista" (I hope that everyone knows that the autonomists used the Italian language).--151.48.40.133 (talk) 08:52, 25 December 2008 (UTC) and --Barba Nane (talk) 09:35, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • I know that the Croatian perspective is somewhat different. This comes from a very specific historiographical school, which had among its roots Grga Novak. Assuming that Dalmatia was one of the most primitive of Europe at the time of Venetian domination, we must also think that since 1797 to the date you specified (1945) they are 150 years. Josip Smodlaka stated in 1911 (1911!) that Dalmatia was still one of the poorest regions of Europe. As you can understand, we can not talk only of the Italian evil foreign rule to explain this fact. I think it is enough the logic to start to demand other questions, which the historiography of your country has not yet met.--151.48.28.216 (talk) 20:47, 27 December 2008 (UTC)and --Barba Nane (talk) 09:35, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For your info...[edit]

- Marino Bonda considered himself "the Italian podestà of Ragusa", and today is "the last Italian podestà of Ragusa". He never used or accepted the name "Bundic". However, if you want you can croatizate all the names. I suggest: Antonio Bajamonti --> Antun Bajamonti; Luigi Lapenna --> Alojz Lapennic; Cosimo de Begna Possedaria --> Kosimus Benji Posedarski; Lorenzo Benevenia --> Lovro Benevenija; Antonio Cippico --> Antun Cipiko; Roberto Ghiglianovich --> Robert Giljanovic; Natale Krekich --> Nale Krekic and so on. Those things are already made by your fellow countrymen in recent years.-151.48.5.145 (talk) 18:13, 27 December 2008 (UTC) and --Barba Nane (talk) 09:36, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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