Talk:Anna Anderson/Archive 7

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Some pride and restraint please!

This article has somehow transformed into a shameful, migraine-inducing mess! After all the fighting and Kiernan blocking everyone from writing here, can you at least have some pride and clean this thing up a bit?? It looks like some stupid post at Amazon.

And "Boris", I suggest you either harden and polish your hopeful additions or get away from this article. The last thing we need is your nonsense. Yes, I know who you are.75.21.96.66 (talk) 21:44, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Dr. M.Coble: "The identification of either Maria or Anastasia was not possible by DNA analysis alone"

Dear DrKiernan, today you have removed my text (from section "DNA evidence" of Anna Anderson):

However, in the article[2] Dr. Michael D. Coble (et al) wrote (see ”Supporting Information”, in comments to Fig. S1):

The identification of either Maria or Anastasia was not possible by DNA analysis alone.

Also, in the section "Discussion" of this article[2]:

It should be mentioned that a well publicized debate over which daughter, Maria (according to Russian experts) or Anastasia (according to US experts), has been recovered from the second grave cannot be settled based upon the DNA results reported here. In the absence of a DNA reference from each sister, we can only conclusively identify Alexei – the only son of Nicholas and Alexandra.

As the reason for removing my text, you wrote: "the article is about Anderson not Anastasia". However, in the article we read:

The bodies of Tsarevich Alexei and the remaining daughter were discovered in 2007. Repeated and independent DNA tests confirmed that the remains were the seven members of the Romanov family, and proved that none of the Tsar's four daughters survived the shooting of the Romanov family.[2][5][124].

So, my addition have corrected the inaccuracies of the previous text. Obviously, you should either restore my add or delete the text shown above as well.Борис Романов (talk) 19:02, 6 September 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov

The current text is not inaccurate. DrKiernan (talk) 08:23, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

In addition, Anastasia is mentioned in the article more than 60 times - so your justification for deleting my text looks absurd.Борис Романов (talk) 19:08, 6 September 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov

Then we are agreed that she is already covered more than sufficiently, and further additions about her are unnecessary. DrKiernan (talk) 08:23, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Let me remind also that earlier, you did unfoundedly removed my other text (relating to Anna Anderson and Anastasia):

It is also known that in 1942 in the occupied territory in Kamenetz-Podolsk region (on the border with Romania), during a search in one of the houses, Baron von Schenk found a leaflet of the Extraordinary Commission (Cheka), 1918, which reported a search for runaway of the emperor's daughter Anastasia (ref>Mark Kasvinov. Twenty-three steps down. - Moscow, Publishing House "Thought", 1987 - in Russian </ref). Борис Романов (talk) 19:45, 6 September 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov

Well, Kiernan, you see this guy doesn't give up - I suggest you give him the basic treatment you so gladly gave me. Because if you thought I was causing trouble .... Anyway, it's a friendlier warning than you deserve. I only hope you listen, take it or leave it. Frankly I sort of hope Boris keeps being a thorn in your side.75.21.155.245 (talk) 09:49, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Recently, one of St. Petersburg publishing houses has published my new book (more 600 pages) about Nicholas II and Russia of his time: "The Emperor Who Knew the Fate. And Russia, Who Did Not Know". You can look at this book (about the book) on the sites (in Russian): http://proza.ru/2011/11/08/1319
A separate chapter of this book is devoted to Anna Anderson. My research is based on well-known RS. In future I hope to publish some short excerpts (about Anna Anderson) from my new book here - for discussion about their posting in the article. Борис Романов (talk) 20:35, 7 December 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov

Because after September 6, 2011 I see no objection to the restoration of my text about the search of 1942, I'll restore the text in an article tomorrow. If opponents believe that this information would be better placed in the article Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna of Russia, - in this case, I beg to report it here. Борис Романов (talk) 20:30, 6 January 2012 (UTC) Boris Romanov

You've had at least 3 editors telling you not to insert it. There is no consensus for inclusion. DrKiernan (talk) 20:46, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Last months only you object to me. Борис Романов (talk) 15:48, 9 March 2012 (UTC) Boris Romanov
Since you started your campaign, only you want to insert it. DrKiernan (talk) 16:56, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Franzisca Schanzkowska's nationality.

Franzisca Schanzkowska was not a Polish factory worker, she was a German farm girl from Hygendorf in Pomerania. See the new book "Almost Anastasia" where Felix Schanzkowsky's daughter Waltraud clearly states that "we were German, not Polish". 24.171.139.101 (talk) 18:24, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Suggest you check back on the history section of this article. At least four references state she was Polish. David J Johnson (talk) 23:57, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
No need to check anywhere. She was born in Pomerania which was a part of Prussia. From her written Anmeldung from 1919, her nationality is clearly stated as Preussen (Prussia). She had a German passport. 24.171.139.101 (talk) 19:03, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
The problem is how to balance one source that says Waltraud was German against four that say Schanzkowska was Polish, including Anderson's own autobiography. DrKay (talk) 19:18, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
When one is born in Germany, one is German! There is no and, if or but about that. See the German version of Wikipedia. They got it right.24.171.139.101 (talk) 01:02, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
I am not convinced that John McEnroe is German. The article says she was born in the German Empire, spoke German and lived in Germany to a great extent. This seems to adequately cover the German aspect. I looked at the German wikipedia; it looks no different to the coverage here. DrKay (talk) 08:32, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
What does John McEnroe have to do with Anna Anderson? The German Wikipedia states that she was a farmgirl from Pomerania in West Prussia. Not a word about Polish, and why should there be? The woman was born in PRUSSIA, which makes her German. Nothing else. That snobbery labeled her a Polish factory worker, is another thing. She was a German girl from the province of Pomerania who worked as a waitress, a farm laborer, a maid and a factory employee. In short, she was a German girl from the working class. NOT a Polish factory worker.24.171.139.101 (talk) 19:41, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
McEnroe was born in Germany. You said one born in Germany is German.
If you click on the DNB/GND link on the German wikipedia article you can see that she is described as wahrscheinlich identisch mit Franziska Schanzkowski, einer polnischen Landarbeiterin, click on the LCCN link and it says in all probability was Franziska Schanzkowski, a Polish farm worker. Click on the VIAF link and then the "about" tab it says Nationality: US - United States (ISNI Wikidata German National Library); PL - Poland (German National Library). It is not snobbery that "labeled" her Polish, it is the sources. That she worked in a factory is clearly sourced to three independent secondary sources and is not doubted by any source. DrKay (talk) 20:23, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
It does not matter what the sources say, they are plain wrong. The lore about the Polish factory worker has long ago covered up reality, but if Wikipedia really wants to be a reliable source, you have to go farther than to sources that are wrong and find the truth for yourself. Franzisca's family was of Polish origin, the name was von Czenstkowski, which Franzisca changed to Schanzkowski when she came to Berlin. But the fact that her parents and herself were all born in West Preussen, makes them all German. Nothing else. Franzisca never set a foot in Poland. That the area later became a part of Poland, has nothing to do with her German nationality. And she was NOT a factory worker, she was a farm girl who happened to spend some time in a factory, polishing hand grenades. The years before her attempted suicide, she worked as a waitress in Bütow and as a farm laborer at Gut Friederikenhof. The correct description would be 'a German working girl'. Here is a comment from the German talk site: Die Einordnung als Polin für Franziska Tschanzkowski ist falsch, da sie einen preußischen Pass hatte und somit Deutsche war, ihre "Ethnie" spielt dabei nur eine untergeordnete Rolle und gibt dem Artikel einen rassistischen Anstrich. Seems like they took out 'die Einordnung als Polin' from the article, which you should also do. As for McEnroe, he was born on an American military base by American parents and is thus American. 24.171.139.101 (talk) 20:44, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
It does matter what the sources say. You seem to be relying on one single source against four others and, frankly, that will not do. You are also ignoring statements made in Anna Anderson's own biography. Also please do not use caps in your reply, that is considered shouting and against Wikipedia standards. David J Johnson (talk) 23:57, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
First of all, Anna Anderson never wrote a biography. Second, when you read King and Wilson's book, you will see on page 269 that they write: Franziska Schanzkowska was no Polish peasant. The place of her birth......in 1896 the entire region belonged to Germany. Again, when you are born in Germany, you are a German citizen. There is absolutely no way around that. As I said earlier, when you look at her Anmeldung from 1919, she herself gives her nationality as German. The Anmeldung is published in Pierre Gilliard's book.24.171.139.101 (talk) 01:21, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Then you know that King and Wilson go into details about her Kashubian roots and state that Polish was her second language and German was her third. She was a German subject, just in the same way that everyone born in Namibia or Tanzania was a German subject, but we don't describe everyone born in the 19th-century borders of Germany as a German, just as we do not describe every Victorian British subject as British. The Ammeldung is a primary source that you are interpreting in a way that the secondary sources do not agree with. Verifiability and no original research are core wikipedia policies. DrKay (talk) 08:20, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
You just said the magic words: No original research. That's why Wikipedia is so unreliable. But nothing can change the nationality of Franzisca. She was a German with a German passport who happened to speak a little Polish.24.171.139.101 (talk) 15:29, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

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