Talk:Ancient Greek philosophy/Archive 1

Hello: I did not know where else to put this...I was looking for a list of all the schools of greece, not just philosophical but also mathematical, scientific, et cetera but could not find one...I am not looking right or am I just mistaken in thinking that wikipedia once had them 208.119.145.88 (talk) 21:12, 5 June 2015 (UTC)stburdge

This article pertains to the history of Greek philosophy. It's not meant to be an exhaustive list of all schools of thought. OctoLibra95 (talk) 16:03, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Modern Greek philosophy?

What about modern Greek philosophy? Also someone knowledgeable could compose a list of Greek philosophers. I mean, it should be separate article from Greek philosophy. --Eleassar777 09:42, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Romans?

Why are there Roman Philosophers in this article? Bayerischermann 04:25, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Usually in history of philosophy, an ancient period includes Greek philosophy and those who followed these schools of thought, which continued throughout the Roman Empire (influence also spread into areas conquered by Alexander the Great in the middle east). Stoicism, cynicism and other Greek philosophies had numerous Roman followers. Many ancient Greek philosophical schools kept going until closed down by Christian emperors in the later Empire. I'll put in a paragraph about this unless someone objects. WhiteC 17:48, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Fine with me. Bayerischermann 05:32, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Socrates taught whom?

9/25/05: One thing I've found that conflicts with other information I've read at Wikipedia is that Socrates taught both Aristotle and Plato. The text says, "In addition, [Socrates] also taught many famous Greek philosophers. Two of his famous pupils were Plato and Aristotle." In both the Aristotle and Plato articles, it mentions Socrates as having taught Plato, who in turn taught Aristotle. I don't want to make the change myself for fear of being wrong or missing something (I really don't know that much about any of the three), but I thought I'd point that out so someone more knowledgable can check it out. Perhaps it's saying that Socrates influenced both, but in that case maybe it could be reworded so as to be more clear... In any case, thanks for checking it out! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.20.97.246 (talk • contribs) 19:45, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing this out. This article was misleading, and I corrected it. Socrates did influence Aristotle too, but only indirectly, through Plato. The articles on Socrates, Plato and Aristotle are correct here. Plato's dialogs are written as dialogs between Socrates and other characters (usually the title of each dialog comes from the person Socrates is arguing with). One problem is knowing how much of this Socrates actually said, and how much is words that Plato is putting into his mouth. WhiteC 05:14, 27 September 2005 (UTC).

De Anima

About Aristotle's "De Anima". Was the book popularised in the West with that name?Because I wouldn't imagine him titling his book in latin. Perhaps a greek title would be more appropriate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.38.140.235 (talk • contribs) 14:24, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

De Anima is definitely what it's called in English. In fact, there are quite a few Greek Works that are known by their Latin names, Plato's Republic is the other one that comes to mind. Nick 05:55, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

You're mixing English and Latin - De Anima is Latin and is sometimes translated in English as On the Soul, Respublica is Latin while Republic is English. You are correct, though, that the Latin name De Anima is how it was popularized in the Latin West commentator tradition. In the Byzantine East, it was known of course by the Greek title Peri psuches Zeusnoos 18:51, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Introduction

The introduction paragraph is surprisingly biased and indicates a sharp lack of awareness of (if not disregard for) philosophical schools that pre-date or were peers of ancient Greek civilization. Given that many of the famed Greek philosophers state they traveled to Egypt for their own educations, and that the city-states of the Fertile Crescent had their own well established intellectual traditions it's a bit rich to continue the claim of Greece's de novo and unadultered thought leadership, like "Venus Rising from the Foam." Perhaps someone who understands intellectual history can add some credible balance to this article......here's to hoping. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.147.56.6 (talk • contribs) 21:45, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I think an element of Egyptian sources (at least those THOUGHT to have influenced AG scholars, pythagoras, Solon etc. shoul be mentioned, I might take time to ammend this if agreement that this is relevent? --Origen305 (talk) 05:41, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree also. I think the Litchfield quote could have the following assertion removed "Philosophy as we understand it is a Greek creation". Perhaps Litchfield was referring to ("as we understand it") Western philosophy and in that context it may be more plausible. But without that context it is not. The Chinese and the Indians would certainly have a basis for complaint.

--174.7.56.10 (talk) 21:41, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that the multiple sources , which claim that greek "intellectuals" (like Pythagoras,plato,Solon,Herodote,...) travelled to Egypt to study, are apocryphe. To be clear, majority of modern scholars really doubt that one of these greek thinkers even set a foot on the Egyptian land. On the other hand Egyptian and ancient middle eastern didn't have philosophy. So the using of the term wisdom philosophy" is more correct in that way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A03F:5018:7100:EC88:78E:4314:DB21 (talk) 23:03, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Diogenes Laertius said the Greeks got philosophy from the barbarians. We know at least one of the Delphic maxims originated in Egypt. Whether the visits to Egypt did not occur doesn't matter as the existence of philosophical borrowings of the ancient cultures is well attested, See "The Shape of Ancient Thought".Teishin (talk) 16:19, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

Socrates believed that one should "know thyself."

Is it a correct English sentenece? I think

"He taught that one should know himself." or "He taught that you should "know thyself."

would be better, but I'm not sure, because I'm not a native speaker of English. I hope that somebody could correct it.

Um, wasn't this the Greek oracle, not Socrates?173.52.253.91 (talk) 16:57, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Nope, it was Socrates, Γνώθει σεαυτόν and know thyself is a correct translation. He also said Εν είδα ότι ουδέν είδα, I know one thing that I know nothing. The oracle was famous for being cryptic or Delphic and the name of Apollo, in whose honour the Oracle at Delphi was devoted was Λοξίας , the oblique one. The Oracle is famous for saying "Ήξεις αφήξεις ουκ εν τω πολέμω θνήξεις" which translates to "You will go, you will come not in the war you will die" and which of course could upon death of the recipient be claimed to have the comma after the not while if he survived the Oracle would claim the comma was before the not. Typical swindling priests.--Xenovatis (talk) 17:21, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

• Bosh (as was the entire paragraph on Socrates). "Know thyself" was posted at Delphi, where Pausanias (the second-century author) saw it [10.24.1]; he was told it was dedicated by the Seven Sages. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:02, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Please read Charmides 164 e. Espeically the part where Socrates says the phrase Know Thyself...--Xenovatis (talk) 11:12, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

According to WP "The aphorism has been attributed to at least six ancient Greek sages:" and lists Socrates..--Xenovatis (talk) 04:24, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Try reading a fifth of a page up at Charmides 164d: "I am at one with him who put up the inscription of those words at Delphi." But the fundamental point of the section is of course that one will be virtuous if one knows what virtue is, and vice is confusion as to the nature of things. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:09, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Gnothi Seauton is NOT attributble to Socrates, and as much as anyone can assertain these things belongs to the Delphic Oracles as inscription--Origen305 (talk) 05:50, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Why they are more rational than other Ancients?

"It is now believed that decision making through oral debate in the polis would have developed rational thought to carefully construct arguments for and against an action, and these debates would have required calling on abstract principles such as justice, without invoking the notion of a god."—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.153.235.3 (talk) 13:21, 6 February 2007 (UTC).

There has been some confusion in regards to above mentioned quote, taking it to imply that peoples in ancient times did not have oral debates of any kind outside the Greek world. However, it refers to "oral debate in the polis". The word polis is used to describe a citizenship or body of citizens, which is also the root of the word "politics". Conclusively, when all statements (such as references to oral debate) are read in context, not alone; the quote can be understood, that the ancient Greeks were different from others because of the democratic style politics, which they pioneered and eventually proliferated throughout Europe (directly & indirectly).—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.68.209.67 (talk) 23:59, 19 August 2007 (UTC).

Most poleis (Sparta, Thebes, Corinth...) had (most of the time) government by discussion between a small number of self-selected people, like many medieval cities. That is not democracy. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:01, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Title

Hi — I'm wondering whether this article might better be titled "Ancient Greek philosophy" or "Classical Greek philosophy" in order to distinguish it from more recent Greek philosophy and philosophers? Sardanaphalus 03:56, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Pre-Socratics

How come this article contains nothing about the pre-socratic philosophers, e.g. those of the Ionian school? Greek philosophy did not begin with Socrates and as such this seems like a major omission to me. Tsourkpk 23:17, 8 November 2007 (UTC)Tsourkpk

I added a little something. It's not great, but it's something. --Le vin blanc (talk) 03:59, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I will endeavour to add more if okay with you all, I'm rather fodn of the presocratics and time permitting will add detail, links and origins (links into the comment on origins, Egyptian, Hittite? etc) --Origen305 (talk) 05:56, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Arabic/Persian philosophy

I have partly reverted some of the changes made by 87.239.71.35 (talk). Although he or she is quite right to point out that many of these so-called "Arabic" philosophers were in fact Persians, nevertheless to call this entire body of philosophy "Persian" is inaccurate. Both Arabs and Persians engaged in these philosophical debates which were largely conducted in Arabic (not Persian). I propose therefore to speak of Islamic philosophy. --Fabullus (talk) 08:30, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Beginnings?

I think this sections leans too much on natural philosophy, ie - AGP impact on natural philosphy, too little on forms, dialectic, epistemology, Ethics, metaphyscis etc. would anyone mind if I added to this to reflect observations? etc--Origen305 (talk) 06:06, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Hinduism and Buddhism in Greek Philosophy

Hinduism and Buddhism in Greek Philosophy (A. N. Marlow). Apparently some scholars speculate the eastern origin of Ancient Greek philosophy. I don't think this is worth putting in the article, so I put it here for discussion. Komitsuki (talk) 15:00, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

It seems that the Ionian philosophy (especially the philosophy of Heraclitus), is closer to the Chinese philosophy. (Theory of opposites etc.). The theory of Parmenides is closer to Hinduism and Buddhism. The above mentioned article uses too many speculations. (Jestmoon(talk) 12:33, 22 June 2017 (UTC))

Possible merge from main Philosophy article

Hey all, I'm cleaning up the main Philosophy page, and want to find a home for this text, some of which is quite excellent but it's too detailed. The Philosophy article has become 18,000 words.

Anyone want to merge some of this (including the pictures) with what is already on this Ancient Greek page?

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Zeno's Paradox, Achilles and the Tortoise

Being and becoming

The first true philosophic dialectic occurs between the "becoming" of Heraclitus ("all is fire", "everything flows," all is chaotic and transitory) of Ephesus in Ionia and the "being" of Parmenides (all is One, change is impossible) of Elea in Magna Graecia. His student Zeno argued against motion with his famous paradoxes. Heraclitus also introduced the concept of logos.

Pluralism

Other thinkers and schools appeared throughout Greece over the next few centuries. Among the most important was the pluralism of Anaxagoras. In response to Parmenides on the impossibility of change, Anaxagoras described the world as a mixture of primary imperishable ingredients, where material variation was never caused by an absolute presence of a particular ingredient, but rather by its relative preponderance over the other ingredients; in his words, "each one is... most manifestly those things of which there are the most in it". He introduced the concept of Nous (Mind) as an ordering force, which moved and separated out the original mixture, which was homogeneous, or nearly so.

The Four Elements

Empedocles also proposed powers called Love and Hate which would act as forces to bring about the mixture and separation of the elements, more discreet than in the mixture of Anaxagoras. Empedocles' philosophy is best known for being the originator of the cosmogenic theory of the four Classical elements. Empedocles is generally considered the last Greek philosopher to record his ideas in verse. Some of his work survives, more than in the case of any other Presocratic philosopher.

Democritus (laughing) & Herakleitos (crying) by van Haarlem

Atomism and Sophistry

There were also the Sophists, who became known, perhaps unjustly, for claiming that truth was no more than opinion and for teaching people to argue fallaciously to prove whatever conclusions they wished. Most famous them of was Protagoras who left us the dictum "man is the measure of all things." Another school was the atomists such as Leucippus and Democritus, wherein the world is a composite of innumerable interacting parts.

References