Talk:American Indian Model Schools

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something doesn't add up[edit]

I looked up the STAR results for this school, it does well but not nearly as well as some other schools in the area.

Some of the material in the article looks like it may have been cut-and-pasted from the LA times article.

Richmondian (talk) 19:51, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am seeing different results for STAR (published by the state) and the school's SARC report (published by the school). Not sure how that can be, perhaps I am missing something. Richmondian (talk) 23:56, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The numbers of students are also weird, according to the LA times there should be something like 40 kids in 8th grade but the STAR results show only 13. Could be the numbers come from different years. Richmondian (talk) 16:20, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

ok, callin it quits on this. the numbers are very strange. the schools SARC looks inline with the media repots but the STAR reports do not. part of it is the SARC is averaging all years, STAR breaks it out by year, but doesn't explain the low number of 8th-grade test-takers. if anyone familiar with the school reads this an explanation would be helpful. Richmondian (talk) 16:42, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You r correct. The test data listed on the sight is for new school AIpCSII. Chavis came to the AIPCS I in 2000 and the # of Indian students decreased a great deal.

thanks! i'll see if the AIPCSII numbers add up correctly. i think other schools have similar problems. the STAR is the most accurate but doesn't summarize over the entire school. the number of american indian students is very small, but the SARCs for past years isn't on the AIPCS website Richmondian (talk) 14:59, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

i was able to find an older SARC report, it had some population numbers. asian population way up from '04, american indian way down, latino way down, white down, african-american about the same. i couldn't get anything earlier than '04. Richmondian (talk) 16:16, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

cleaned up a bit[edit]

The article is very heavy on Chavis quotes. He appears very outspoken but the quotes as is dominate the article, which is missing a lot of the key points about the school (uniforms, academic philosophy, etc.). I don't know if anyone is still working on this, hopefully someone is, though there are no computers at the school so I guess the students aren't editing often. Richmondian (talk) 23:31, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The mentions of Chavis need to be trimmed severely. At present it's hard to see if the article is about the school or about Chavis. Kevin (talk) 05:20, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's a difficulty with the subject. Read the sources, it isn't much of a stretch to say the school IS Chavis. To believe the sources, Chavis single-handedly turned a failing school around and took its performance to unimaginable levels.

But, read the article as written. I think it would be hard to conclude the article is about Chavis

Intro section: no mention of Chavis
PE section: no mention of Chavis
High school section: no mention of Chavis
Philosophy section: no mention of Chavis
Demographics section: no mention of Chavis
Test Scores section mentions Chavis, but only as a way to describe a period of time "In the five years since Chavis arrived". We could say, "Since 2002", but that year isn't as meaningful to the reader in this context.

Anyway, am open to suggestions. Richmondian (talk) 05:36, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The "Chavis controversies" section is the bit I have the most problems with. Kevin (talk) 05:50, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thats a start. I'm open to trimming that section down, but would like to do it in a way that doesn't minimize the controversies. There were apparently events for years, but people were loathe to criticize because the school was doing so well. If only one event is described it could read like it is just a lone he-said-she-said situation. Maybe some content could be pushed into a <ref>? I am not sure what else to call the section. Could possible call it Chavis-era Controversies and lump the admissions stuff in there too? Richmondian 05:58, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

The best way is to write notable events into the prose of the other sections. The ones that are only about Chavis, such as the flight of stairs bit, are too closely related to Chavis to tell us anything useful about the school itself. Looking at the section, I can't see initially where each statement should go, if anywhere. I'll come back in a while and see if it's clearer then. Kevin (talk) 06:06, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

citations[edit]

fellow wikipedians, as i told the first editor that placed ^{[citation needed]} tags all over the articles, the vast majority of the content comes from the LA times reference.

please stop placing ^{[citation needed]} all over the place, if you want a citation either google or just go to the LA times reference where you will probably find the information. this is a group effort, anyone can go put ^{[citation needed]} all over the place but that does little to help the article.

my understanding is that it is OK to just have a "references" section without inline citations, which i will switch to if people insist on putting ^{[citation needed]} all over the place.

Richmondian (talk) 23:42, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's not a solution. Particularly when adding information on living people, sources must be as good as other good-faith editors demand. Removing in-line citations for the sake of convenience is not okay. If you don't like the fact tags, don't add unsourced information. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 23:54, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

most of the non-inline cited information was here before i got here, but i don't see anyone else trying to add citations (even though it is almost all from the LA times). 95% of the time they just have to follow the latimes link, then put <ref name=latimes/> after the statement. i don't have much patience for editors too "busy" to follow a single link to improve an article but with plenty of time to put little ^{[citation needed]} tags all over the place and time to discuss/post on noticeboards about the little ^{[citation needed]} tags they've put up. really. Richmondian (talk) 00:12, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's just how it goes. If you don't have the patience for it, leave it to someone else. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 01:39, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

fishy[edit]

Another fishy thing, in both 04-05 and 05-06 AIPCS reported that exactly 70% of their students scored proficient or better in all four subject areas reported: Math, Language, Science, and History. That is very unlikely. The report is probably incorrect (intentionally or not)

Richmondian (talk) 18:08, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

removed content[edit]

This is from the LA times [1]

Some of the schools' critics contend that high-scoring Asian Americans are driving the test scores, but blacks and Latinos do roughly as well -- in fact, better on some tests. That makes American Indian a rarity in American education, defying the axiom that poor black and Latino children will lag behind others in school.

Here's the line in the article that had the citation which was removed as unsourced:

However, the school's Asian, African-American, and Latino students perform similarly on standardized tests.

This is AFTER I put the citation on there! I see the editor that removed this later put it back in, but, come on, at least follow the citation before removing.

As for the part about the feeder school, Lincoln Elementary, it appeared on the feeder schools article, but after following the reference there I don't see any info about where kids go, so it isn't sourced. I also googled it just now and can't find a good source for it, all I see is a student saying that he/she went from one school to another. So I've removed it from the other article too.

It is, by wiki law, removable, though I think its probably correct info. The asian kids are coming from somewhere, Lincoln is predominantly Asian, located literally a block from AIPCS II, and Lincoln was in the top 2 schools in the state in '06[2]

This has been a fun exercise, I've found more tantalizing info about the school, though it is only in comments at this point. They say[http://perimeterprimate.blogspot.com/2009/05/dear-mr-finn.html ]:

The school had 100% American Indian population in '98, waayyyyy down to 1.1%
Chavis cherry picked kids from local GATE (giftend and talented) programs
Poorly performing kids were pushed out mid-year and replaced with other kids to make attrition look low and test scores high
Some students asked to show 5th grade test scores before admission
Suspiciously high percentage of students refused to state ethnicity in certain years, looking at the demographics the number of Asian students curiously drops the same year the number who "refuse to state" increase dramatically

Response from Chavis has been that Asians started attending when they saw test scores were high, etc. LA times journalist knew of some of the claims but thought the school was remarkable anyway, since it outperforms nearly ALL other schools.

Richmondian (talk) 16:43, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

uncited content from students[edit]

This was added to article -- former students, it is OK to put this in if it is published somewhere, for example in a student newspaper, but it can't go into the article until it appears somewhere else first. If the school is that bad try to talk to journalists about it, you can often email them. Someone might like to do an expose with your input. Also if you leave contact info (an email address, etc) it would make it easier to write stories like this.

Former/Current Student's Inputs[edit]

'Here, you will find student's inputs that goes, or have went to this school.'

Anonymous - 9/17/10[edit]

There is also another rumored way on how they pick their students, they handpick the students who received high CST test scores, and who has also been automatically been applied for the GATE program

AIPCS, is a terrible school. That is all.

Seriously, it's a terrible school. You are stuck in a plain room with a teacher yapping. Getting a detention is very easy, one little accidental incident causes you to receive a detention. You are also stuck with 1 teacher for 6th grade to 8th grade, unless they leave or get fired. This year caused a lot of changes into AIPCSII, a former teacher, Seth Burns, changed a lot of the school policies and other, fired 2 teachers, David Thaggard (2+ years), and Lily. Tam (1 year), they are removed for "bad teaching".

Not unless it was a university paper, though. I don't think a high school paper would pass it WhisperToMe (talk) 20:25, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

External link[edit]

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-charter31-2009may31,0,6518091,full.story -- That is the one page version of the LA Times article WhisperToMe (talk) 21:09, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Enrollment stats[edit]

For the original AIPCS: http://data1.cde.ca.gov/dataquest/DQ/EnrTimeRptSch.aspx?cYear=1996-97&Level=School&cName=AMERICAN+INDIAN+PUBL&cCode=6113807&dCode=0161259

STAR report[edit]

http://star.cde.ca.gov/star2009/ViewReport.asp?ps=true&lstTestYear=2009&lstTestType=C&lstCounty=01&lstDistrict=61259-0765&lstSchool=0111856&lstGroup=1&lstSubGroup=1

Charter denial document[edit]

http://ousd.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=472785&GUID=4E466A19-C6E4-43D2-9EE8-66A21F7F3F4F

Sources[edit]

Newspaper articles

Sebastian, Simone. "Principal's philosophy shaped by upbringing, formal education." San Francisco Chronicle. Friday December 6, 2005.
Veen, Chad Vander. "Technology and the Three R's." Government Technology. June 1, 2006. says:
- "Others have taken dramatically different approaches, like a small charter school in Oakland, Calif., whose fiery administrator eliminated PCs and Internet connections, and returned to the basics."
It's implied to be American Indian
Bauerlein, Mark. "The Ben Chavis Way." The Chronicle of Higher Education. May 2, 2010.

Op-eds in newspapers

Chavis, Ben. "Commentary: Who says public schools need more money?" CNN. September 7, 2009.
Coulson, Andrew J. "Tough Love – How Ben Chavis works education wonders." Education News. 28 January 2010.
Will, George. "Where Paternalism Makes the Grade." The Washington Post. Thursday August 21, 2008.

Think tanks

Coulson, Andrew J. "We Are not Seeing the Bell Curve’s Toll." CATO Institute.
Murray, Charles. "Test Scores and Wishful Thinking." Journal of the American Enterprise Institute. October 3, 2009.
"America's Top Models: Can the Nation's Best Charter Schools Be Brought to Scale?." CATO Institute. Friday October 2, 2009.
Murphy, Katy. "Madman, genius or both?" The Oakland Tribune. June 15, 2007. Updated on July 26, 2007.

Others

"2006 Grants." The Walton Family Foundation.
- "American Indian Public Charter School $230,000.00"

WhisperToMe (talk) 02:28, 10 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Blocked sources[edit]

This is robots.txt'ed.

"Governor Schwarzenegger Visits American Indian Public Charter School in Oakland.", gov.ca.gov, October 24, 2006

WhisperToMe (talk) 17:25, 11 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

High school handbook[edit]

http://www.aimschools.org/pdf/AIPHS_Family_Handbook_2009-2010.pdf WhisperToMe (talk) 21:41, 11 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Old talk[edit]

Talk:American Indian Public Charter School WhisperToMe (talk) 15:31, 13 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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UPDATE PLEASE[edit]

The information for American Indian Model Schools is sorely in need of updating as the school is celebrating 25 years of service in 2022 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:6CB4:860:996B:9105:7A5:7A1E (talk) 22:58, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]