Talk:Allegations of genocide in Donbas

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Merger proposal[edit]

(non-admin closure) The result of this proposal is: NOT MERGED – Nythar (💬-❄️) 09:32, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


I propose merging False accusations of genocide in Donbas into Ukraine v. Russian Federation (2022). These cover the same subject, the second article has much better coverage of it, and a much longer article history (from March 7, as opposed to July 9). The existence of a sparsely referenced article about false accusations gives the subject WP:UNDUE WEIGHT, as compared to an assessed actual risk of genocide by the other side, and could cause confusion with the important article Claims of genocide of Ukrainians in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. —Michael Z. 17:33, 22 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose — I just expanded this article, and the subject of this article is Russia's accusations against Ukraine, not Ukraine's lawsuits against Russia. Newbamboo (talk) 14:25, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It’s one lawsuit, and these accusations are central to it. The title can be changed. —Michael Z. 18:49, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support — This article gives false accusations WP:UNDUE WEIGHT. Wikipedia should not be a place to parrot state propaganda. Merge into Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis or Ukraine v. Russian Federation (2022).--3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 06:37, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Seems like a notable piece of fake news, I don't see the need to merge it. However, I'd support renaming this to mirror Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, into Allegations of genocide of Russians in Ukraine]--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:07, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose As stated above, Ukraine v. Russian Federation (2022) is about a particularlawsuit that is notable of its own accord and deserves its own article. I believe the proper way to address your concerns is to explain fully the Ukraine and international reactions in the reactions sections and to add content from reliable sources that refutes the claims. However, I do not believe that all of the information in this article fits into the proposed merge target. Alternatively, it can maybe be merged to another article, as @3E1I5S8B9RF7 suggested, although I doubt this is necessary. It's better to balance articles than move them to separate topics.--Lenny Marks (talk) 13:19, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Quinnerwinner12 (talk) 14:16, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I think the false claims meet WP:GNG separately from the court case, given dedicated news coverage/debunking. However, False accusations of genocide in Donbas might be a more suitable title, given that the claims are baseless, or alternatively (lower preference), Russian allegations of genocide in Donbas, which would make it clearer the accusations are not widespread and stem only from the Russian regime. I see the former was rejected in the RM below, but I'd be supportive of any attempt to adjust the title to cast more explicit doubt on the validity of the claims, to reflect how they're treated in RS. Jr8825 • Talk 17:26, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 25 July 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 05:31, 2 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Accusations of genocide in Donbas → False accusations of genocide in Donbas – The title does not reflect a WP:neutral point of view. The accusations have been found to be unfounded by the International Criminal Court, and they are generally considered false and in bad faith. A report by 30 genocide and legal experts have labelled these accusation in a mirror, and part of the Russian state’s own incitement to genocide.[1] Having this article’s title reflect a false balance position of supposed “NPOV,”[2] while Genocide Convention violations and incitement to genocide is being committed by the accuser while doubt is cast on it with a WP:CLAIM in the title Claims of genocide of Ukrainians in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, is completely biased against neutrality and the POV of reliable sources.  —Michael Z. 19:24, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose —Let the facts speak for themselves in the article, not in the title. Whether the accusation is true or not should not be concluded in the title, but should provide enough information in the text for readers to judge for themselves. Newbamboo (talk) 01:45, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, it is a verifiable fact: reliable sources say these accusations are baseless and false. The court finds no evidence. The New Lines/Wallenberg report[3]:15 by 30 scholars called it a “baseless allegation.” —Michael Z. 17:26, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose even though there clearly isn't an international Jewish conspiracy, such thing is not specified in the title of International Jewish conspiracy. Is there any article in Wikipedia which has a title in the style of the proposed one here? Super Ψ Dro 08:54, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Apparently we consider “Accusation” and “False accusation” two distinct subjects. There are some articles that start with “Allegations of . . ., which seems more doubtful to me. —Michael Z. 17:21, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - These allegations may well be false, but we don't need to put it in the article title. PatGallacher (talk) 23:18, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per the above. We would have a problem only if the title were something like "Genocide in Donbas".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  09:57, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, too wordy. Accusations is enough to state this isn't fact but just accusations.PrisonerB (talk) 13:28, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 28 August 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 15:25, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Accusations of genocide in Donbas → Accusations of genocide of Russians in Donbas – Given we have Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, the current article here should be moved to Accusations of genocide of Russians in Donbas. It's more important to clarify who are the victims rather than the location. I have no opinion on the usage of 'allegations' vs 'accusations' (Allegations of genocide of Russians in Donbas?), although standardization would be nice, and redirects are WP:CHEAP to create. Sidenote, note the existence of disambig at Ukrainian genocide. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:12, 28 August 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Jack Frost (talk) 08:51, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I understand and share the sentiment, but do they actually claim that the population of Donbas as of 2014-2022 are Russians? (I mean, of course Putin says that all Ukrainians are Russians, but we are not going to take this bullshit into account). I do not oppose at the moment, but for me it is a problem which we somehow need to overcome. Ymblanter (talk) 08:02, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Probably "Russian-speakers" would be more appropriate. It could also be "Russian accusations of genocide in Donbas". Super Ψ Dro 12:12, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, the use of the euphemism “Russian-speakers” does not improve the description of the ultranationalist accusation. (And “Russian speakers” is not a “national, ethnical, racial or religious group” covered by the Genocide Convention.) The claim is false, on both the counts of Russian national identity of Donbas Ukrainians and on genocide, but the title should name the subject. —Michael Z. 18:17, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose 1) Adding “of Russians” constitutes WP:original research. The target group of the Russian claims of genocide is not specifically defined. See, for example, the March 16 order of the ICJ,[4] or the New Lines/Raoul Wallenberg legal analysis.[5] 2) Calling this “accusations” alongside “Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine presents a false balance between these two articles, making them sound equal and opposite, and implying the truth may lie somewhere in between. Reliable sources tell us that is wrong (see the same links above). The court and the report by 30 experts tell us that Russia is violating prohibitions of the Genocide Convention, is inciting to commit genocide, and may be committing genocide. Meanwhile they tell us that there is no evidence Ukraine is committing genocide, but Russia may be using its accusation as casus belli (“pretext”) for its illegal war of aggression, and is using it as part of its very campaign of incitement to commit genocide. If either article is renamed, it should improve the situation of identifying the nature of the accusations: both point to Russia as a violating party. I would favour a title like Russian claims of genocide in Donbas. —Michael Z. 18:56, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Examining the order by the International Court of Justice (2022-03-16),[6] whose main purpose is to respond to Ukraine’s submission “that there is an urgent need to project its people from the irreparable harm caused by the Russian Federation’s military measures that have been launched on a pretext of genocide” (¶ 68).
    The ICJ has not determined whether genocide had occurred (but says it has no evidence that it has), does not provide a legal analysis identifying a target group, and mainly refers to, for example “whether genocide . . . has occurred or is occurring in the Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts of Ukraine and whether Ukraine has committed genocide” (¶ 30), or more generally “allegations of genocide committed by Ukraine” (¶ 32), “on Ukrainian territory” (¶ 59), or “in the territory of Ukraine” (¶ 60).
    It does in one instance name Russian propaganda rhetoric in its own voice (Russia has made no legal claims of genocide) as “genocide in the Luhansk and Donetsk regions” and “against the Russian-speaking population living in the above-mentioned regions” (¶ 36–37), but this appears to be not a legal definition, as it doesn’t name a “national, ethnical, racial or religious group” covered by the Genocide Convention.
    It also quotes several Russian official sources which allege genocide but never define the target group (¶ 38–41). —Michael Z. 19:31, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The “Independent Legal Analysis,”[7] a report by 30 legal and genocide experts, refers to an aspect of incitement to commit genocide, accusation in a mirror, generally as accusing the targeted group “of planning, or having committed, atrocities” (p 1), of plotting or committing atrocities” (12), or of “the same or other atrocities the speaker intends to inflict on them” (15).
    Putin's incitement to genocide as the “utterly false claim that Ukraine had committed genocide or exterminated the civilian population in Russian-backed separatist-controlled areas” (1), “genocide in the Donbas,” “‘exterminating the civilian population’ in areas controlled by Russian-backed separatist groups,” “Russians fleeing persecution by the Ukrainian government,” “shelling the Russian-backed separatist held areas, and torturing Russians held there” (15).
    Again, the reliable secondary source acknowledges that the allegations are not backed by evidence or, in this case, absolutely false, and that the supposed genocide does not have an actual target.
    No designation of “Russians,” “Russian-speakers,” or anything else, is consistently cited by accusers or sources describing them, and is not defining of this subject. In fact the defining characteristics, which would better represent the subject in its title, are:
    • These accusations are by the Russian state
    • They are part of war propaganda
    • They are unfounded and false
    • They are used to incite genocide against Ukrainians
    • They are a pretext for war
     —Michael Z. 20:19, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Image[edit]

Maybe we can move the first image further down the page. It is pretty graphic so I don’t think it should be that high in the article. Tankpiggy18 (talk) 01:35, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I deleted the image. I don't feel right about 'deleting' information, but I felt that the contribution to the page was very small in contrast of how offputting it might be for more sensible users. 87.5.216.32 (talk) 15:27, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. It should not have been in the article anyway, unless reliable sources say it represents the subject. Since the subject is an unsubstantiated claim of genocide that sources consider to be anti-Ukrainian propaganda, posting images from anti-Ukrainian shock propaganda is completely inappropriate. —Michael Z. 20:38, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to add some info[edit]

Russian accusation of Ukrainians in war crimes and genocide in Ukrainian Donbas, it's looks like defensive information warfare opperation to draff attantion from war crimes commited by russians itself. They always to blame their oponents and tryin to paint in black. In this regard, I believe that it is worth noting that almost all war crimes committed in Donbas were committed by Russian-controlled extremists and saboteurs. For example:

killed:

  • Stepan Chubenko
  • Volodymyr Rybak (murder victim)
  • Amendment Yuriy Yuriyovych
  • Oleksandr Vitaliyovych Reshetnyak
  • Alyokhin Volodymyr Oleksiyovych
  • Goncharenko Dmytro Valeryovych
  • Vasyl Gervasiyovych Demchuk
  • Olena Borysivna Kulish
  • Rybak Volodymyr Ivanovich
  • Khytrenko Gennadiy Dmytrovych

and much more :( 

"The Executioners Of Slovyansk: RFE/RL Puts Names, Faces To Death Squad"[1]

In May 2020 Igor Strelkov, a key organizer of the Donetsk People's Republic's militant groups confessed in an interview with Ukrainian journalist Dmitry Gordon that he bore some responsibility for the killing of Rybak: "Naturally, Rybak, as a person who actively opposed the "militias", was an enemy in my eyes. And his death, probably, is to some extent also under my responsibility". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bodia1406 (talk • contribs) 18:45, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]


References

  1. ^ Miller, By Christopher; Krutov, Contributing reporters: Sergei Dobrynin and Mark; July 23, 2020. "The Executioners Of Slovyansk: RFE/RL Puts Names, Faces To Death Squad". RadioFreeEurope/RadioLiberty. Retrieved 2022-11-21. {{cite web}}: |first3= has numeric name (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)

Article moved[edit]

The article was moved by a non-autoconfirmed account which is not even allowed to edit these articles much less move them. I've reverted back to original title. If we want to have an RM then THIS title (with "False" in it) is the starting point. Volunteer Marek 00:54, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the whole article is about how this claim is nonsense. Title should reflect that. Volunteer Marek 00:57, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We have Talk:False accusations of genocide in Donbas#Requested move 25 July 2022 which was closed as not moved. You need to move the article back and start a new RM.--Ymblanter (talk) 01:02, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bias?[edit]

This article seems very biased. Skimming through both the equivalent article about Russia and the article on the War in Donbas there seems to be a real disconnect. Brutal sieges of cities and indiscriminate shelling of civilians appear to be present in both cases, but are only considered war crimes or "genocide" when Russia does it? 111.106.166.232 (talk) 22:18, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

111.106.166.232, do you think we get to decide what is and what is not genocide? Either find reliable sources or don't use the talk page as a forum. — Nythar (💬-❄️) 23:12, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It’s not a forum to point out contradictions between different articles on this site. I’m suggesting improvements to this article in earnest. If I had specific references I wanted to add I would just add them rather than first mention it here. “Do a bunch of work or shut up” is not a productive attitude to take towards talk pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 111.106.166.232 (talk) 03:48, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry if you thought my attitude indicated "do a bunch of work or shut up". I cited WP:FORUM because your complaint is too general. No specific examples, no mentions of improving the two articles, and no references provided. WP:FORUM states we should "bear in mind that article talk pages exist solely to discuss how to improve articles". You simply didn't present anything that would improve the article. Please provide more specific examples and we'll try to solve them. — Nythar (💬-❄️) 06:08, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I vote "Yes", the article has a foundation of Bias Knowsetfree (talk) 13:20, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is not equivalent. Ukraine has not conducted any sieges. Russian propaganda’s so-called “genocide” took place when 25 civilians were killed in a year by land mines, remnant munitions, and combat by both sides, and is merely an excuse for illegal aggression. Meanwhile Russia’s incitement to genocide, systematic commission of all five genocidal acts including the targeting and intentional killing of tens of thousands of civilians, and serious risk of genocide being imminent or already in progress has triggered the obligation to prevent on the part of 150 state signatories of the Convention on Prevention and Punishment of Genocide, according to multiple reliable sources.
What anon is asserting and @Knowsetfree is reinforcing here is an absolutely false premise.  —Michael Z. 14:37, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is absolutely total evidence of War crimes and both side, and I think you need to stop saying Ukraine is all innocent because this conflict really isn't as simple as you're trying to assert Michael. QuinnZ23 (talk) 22:27, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Taking this discussion off of the user page where you pasted it originally, WHAT evidence? CMacMillan (talk) 23:01, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf if you want this 75 page document by the OSCE. QuinnZ23 (talk) 23:10, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Ukrainians under Poroshenko shot protesters, you can also learn about the 2014 Odessa clashes which killed 42 pro-Russian protesters. The Pro Russian Protester camp was also burned https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Odesa_clashes#2_May_city_centre_clashes_and_Trade_Unions_House_fire all of the Pro Russia demonstrators killed were native to the region aside from 2 who were native to two different Ukrainian oblasts itself. QuinnZ23 (talk) 23:17, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry 48* QuinnZ23 (talk) 23:17, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not war crimes.
And why don’t you mention the pro-democracy demonstrators killed first in Odesa, and that mob violence was instigated by pro-Russia traitors who fled the country to escape justice, that the Glaziev tapes show that this was part of the occupation of government buildings in six or seven oblasts organized by Moscow, and that most of the fires were started inside the building? You even called pro-democracy protestors “Pro Russian” by counting them on the traitors’ side. —Michael Z. 19:04, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've read it - and the UN and State Department responses as well as those by AI and HRW. CMacMillan (talk) 23:19, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't get how you can't grasp that in a multi-ethnic huge expansive conflict it might be possible for the side you support to commit a warcrime? QuinnZ23 (talk) 23:24, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is your failing, not mine.
I do not support a side, but neither will I be used by one. You presented a paper here published by a pro-Russian organization claiming abuses - not genocide as you earlier exclaimed - which has been refuted by a UN investigation, the US State Department, Amnesty AND Human Rights Watch. I've asked you for proof, do you have it? CMacMillan (talk) 23:28, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm decently sure I never said Genocide, I also said both sides have committed war crimes, also the US state department is pretty clearly biased, you loosely claiming I'm being used the Russian side is pretty rude, evidence sources are challenging without bias on this conflict and I'm currently looking up evidence. QuinnZ23 (talk) 23:34, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Russia is responsible for the crime of aggression, numerous crimes against humanity, crimes against the Genocide Convention, and the vast majority of war crimes that have taken place since it started its war against Ukraine in February 2014.
 —Michael Z. 03:03, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I never said Russia didn't do warcrimes, never once but you claim over and over that Ukraine hasn't? QuinnZ23 (talk) 18:12, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Did I, even once?
You seem to wilfully ignore that Russia is responsible for the vast majority of war crimes, according to reliable sources that say so in so many words.  —Michael Z. 19:00, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Remove "False" neo-Judicial determination, retain "Accusations"[edit]

Proposed Edit:

False a Accusations of genocide in Donbas have been made by Russia against Ukraine since 2014. Russia n propaganda has claimed that Ukrainian authorities have undertaken measures amidst the war in Donbas that amount to genocide against the Russian speakers of Ukraine.

The article begins with "False Accusations" as axiomatic in describing the claims that Ukraine preceded Russia's invasion with the shelling of civilians in the Donbas. However, the editor(s) who use the term False are doing so without any "reliable reference" included. The word "Accusation" already conveys uncertainty as to truth, but combining it with the word "False" goes beyond, presuming at best omniscience, though more likely prejudice. See "WP:SOURCE". Wikipedia is not intended to exist as an echo chamber of existing dominant media narrative, it's meant to provide information. Dare we allow ethnic rivalry to dictate which allegations of war crimes/genocide are labeled truth and which are labeled lies?

Let's remember that nearly every important 'story' over the last couple years has later been shown to have serious flaws, omissions, and falsehoods. Wikipedia should be the tool which keeps perspective, and reliable references must be required even especially when emotional stories are involved. Knowsetfree (talk) 13:20, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Article omits any mention of RS allegations against UA volunteer units[edit]

See Humanitarian situation during the war in Donbas, Dnipro-1 Regiment, Aidar Battalion, and various other such articles, and their reflists. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 11:47, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Where do any of those articles mention genocide? 93.72.49.123 (talk) 13:23, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.  —Michael Z. 14:03, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Mzajac, I was not making a specific edit request, merely pointing out an inconsistency of coverage between various articles.
As I recall, I had been doing CE and other WikiGnoming on various volunteer battalions, and noticed several of them had well-sourced allegations of various incidents including possible war crimes. However, I didn’t see any overall mention of this in the various main articles I checked.
Also, at the time I posted that, I think the page may have had a different name than the current one. If the scope has shifted as well, perhaps the RSed allegations of war crimes in 2014–16 by Ukrainian irregulars would be better discussed in another article. @93.72.49.123
RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 04:50, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Actors[edit]

https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/07/14/victims-of-donbas-genocide-were-paid-actors-prigozhins-fired-trolls-reveal/ Victor Grigas (talk) 11:27, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Euromaidan is a biased newssource and isn't valid at all to this subject. QuinnZ23 (talk) 22:28, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The name should be changed to False accusations of genocide in the Donbass[edit]

Russia has violated the Genocide Convention https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/irwin-cotler---russia-is-in-standing-breach-of-the-genocide-convention-/48228836 And the UN has called Russia's false accusations "unfounded" https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1113402 It is a false equivalence to insinuate that these are factual claims. when Russia has used these claims to justify genocide in Ukraine. Monochromemelo1 (talk) 21:43, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I’d be in favour. Reliable sources continue to tell us that not only is this an eight-year-old lie, it is part of Russia’s incitement to genocide. This subject is the same as Ukraine v. Russian Federation (2022), and belongs to the parent article Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, which is about the actual incitement to genocide and likely genocide that experts agree is taking place. See also #Merger proposal, above. —Michael Z. 01:45, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Equivalence?[edit]

Should there be an excerpt of examples of various justifications of war and genocide with likening it with supposedly genocide of their kin?

Like an example of various Nazi German propaganda of persecutions of German minority by the Polish Republic? Benfor445 (talk) 09:26, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

the title should be changed to "False accusations of genocide in Donbass"[edit]

the title "Allegations of genocide in Donbas" legitimizes the false claim that ukraine committed genocide in the donbass when they didnt and the ICJ has ruled as such. Monochromemelo1 (talk) 00:19, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Allegations_of_genocide_in_Donbas&oldid=1219312089"