Talk:Alat tribe

Who is Du lu ke han

In subsection Hephtalites it reads: Jiu Tangshu mentions a tribe of skewbald horses among Basmyls, Kirguts, Tuhsi, etc., who in 638 submitted to the Western Türkic Torok-kagan Du-lu ke-han. I searced about this khagan. According to article Qaghans of the Turkic khaganates there are two candidates; Ishbara Terish Qaghan or Illig Beg Tughluq Qaghan (both regnal names) the first between 634-639 and the later between 638-653) Exactly to which Du lu ke han refer ? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 10:44, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Dear Nedim, I do not know. The citation is from the A.Kurbanov's work on Hephtalites [1], I was unable to link Torok-kagan with one of those two candidates, and I personnaly think that Jiu Tangshu referred not to a statutory Kagan, but to the head of the Dulu (Dulo) tribe, who could very well also be called Kagan, like we saw "Shanyu" used by subordinate tribes after a collapse of central power. As you know, the Western Türkic Kaganate was an epitome of the collapsing authorities, of the tightrope maneuvering at the head of the power, and in addition the heads of the wings or even tribes could conduct their own diplomacy, further confusing not only the Chinese, but the Byzantines too. But again, I do not have a source confirming my personal opinion, otherwise I would have cited it. The Dulo clan was a dynastic clan, Attila was Attila Dulo, and the aura of Türkic royalty line kept lasting for millenniums, they were Tengri-blessed, "Chenly-gudu". If you learn something, please let me know too. Regards, Barefact (talk) 00:06, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Probably the name of the khagan was Ilıg Beg Tughluq Khagan (638-653) whose personal name is given as Yukuk Shad. In Lev Gumilev's book it reads: "In 641 Yukuk was able to conquer all territories between Ili River to Siberia forests". He also lists the tribes which submit to Yukuk. Basmyl, Kyrgyz, Kypchak, Boma, Chumugun. But he doesn't refer to Alat. (By the way when I was searcing for Chumugun, I came accross an articles about Ajlad which had been created by you. Can they have any relation to Alat ? ) Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 08:36, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Boma in Boma = Alat/Alachin; the phrase must be the same phrase that Gumilev (who did not know Chinese and had to rely on translations, principally Bichurin, who translated Boma phonetically) and Zuev are citing; Zuev, who was an expert on ancient Chinese, translated it both phonetically and semantically, "motley horse", and associated it with Turkic Ala-at "motley horse". Zuev investigated different codings of Alats in Chinese records, and published it in 1960 in the "Tamgas of vassal princedoms". Gumilev, apparently, was not aware of that publication; my attempt to find it in the library of the Russian Academy of Sciences did not find it there, they have only a few of his later works. I've got a copy of the author's proof print from private hands. Gumilev has a lengthy speculation on the origin of the mysterious Boma, it is pretty much useless. That's why I was careful to list in the WP article all transcriptions that Zuev found in the Chinese annals and publicized.

Ajlad, I think, = Alat, I run into a reference on that, and might locate it again one day, I made a note of it somewhere. Most likely, the reference is as good a guess as yours, without philological study on the intricacies of spelling, or independent confirmation, it would likely remain a plausible supposition. If and when I find that reference, I will add it to the article, thank you for the reminder.

On Chumugun: please do not rely on Gumilev's transcriptions to Russian, the Russian changes h's to g's (and there is a good story on that, if you are curious), so the Huns are Guns in Russian. Chumugun are Chu tribes, and Gumilev's "-guns" are "-huns", they are Chu tribes of the Huns. They also go in the Chinese annals as Chuge and Xiuchuge. 1) "Then Zhang Huan made private contact with the Wuhuan, persuading them to change sides and enter into a secret alliance with him. He then arranged that they cut off the heads of the Xiongnu and Chuge leaders, and he made a surprise attack to destroy the enemy forces. All the barbarians now begged to surrender." 2)"The Chuge, also known as the Xiuchuge, were a clan group of the Xiongnu." [Rafe de Crespigny].

On Torok-kagan vs Tughluq I can't tell one way or another. It could as well be a generic Turk-kagan. Sorry for a long discourse. Barefact (talk) 01:01, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

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