Talk:Alan Wace

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Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Vaticidalprophet talk 02:06, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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  • ... that the archaeologist Alan Wace worked undercover for British intelligence during both world wars? Source: Allen, Susan Heuck (2011). Classical Spies: American Archaeologists with the OSS in World War II Greece. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press. ISBN 978-0-472-03539-7 (p20)

5x expanded by UndercoverClassicist (talk). Self-nominated at 18:21, 25 October 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Alan Wace; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

  • Article was 5x times expanded; incredible job on the overhaul! QPQ completed, article is sourced and accurate as is the hook. Of course I prefer Alt0. Well done! Panini! • 🥪 19:53, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Alan Wace/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ealdgyth (talk · contribs) 15:05, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll get to this in the next few days. Ealdgyth (talk) 15:05, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking it on -- appreciate, in advance, your time and comments. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:30, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (reference section): b (inline citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:
  • I randomly googled three phrases and only turned up Wikipedia mirrors. Earwig's tool shows no sign of copyright violation.
  • Spotchecks:
    • "He was the second son of Frederic Charles Wace, a mathematician at St John's College; his mother, Fanny (née Bayard), was descended from a family prominent in New York." is sourced to The ODNB article on Wace which supports the information.
    • "He was elected as a fellow of Pembroke College in 1904." is sourced to the ODNB article which supports the information but it's rather close to the source, which states "In 1904 Wace was elected a fellow of Pembroke College, Cambridge" is there a way to phrase this differently?
      • I'm not sure there is: for accuracy, we need "1904", "elected", "fellow" and "Pembroke College" in those exact words, and there's only so many ways to rearrange them. Happy to take a steer or suggestion if you've got one. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:11, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Wace was ultimately rejected in favour of Dawkins" is sourced to the ODNB which supports the information
    • "He was buried in the Protestant section of the First Cemetery of Athens." is sourced to the ODNB which supports the information but is a word-for-word repeat of the source: "He was buried in the protestant section of the First Cemetery in Athens"
      • As above, really: from a WP:NFCC point of view, there's nothing really creative in that sentence: it's a bare statement of bare facts, and bare facts are not copyrightable. Again, though, I'm very happy to take a steer if you've got one. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:11, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Although the BSA was forbidden to excavate from 1914, the American School of Classical Studies (ASCSA) was not subject to such restrictions, and Wace joined its secretary, Carl Blegen, in the ASCSA's excavations of the Early Bronze Age site of Korakou in the Corinthia during 1915 and 1916" is sourced to the ODNB which supports everything but "the American School of Classical Studies (ASCSA) was not subject to such restrictions" which is not supported by the source.
      Done: I've found and added a source which goes into more detail about the ASCSA. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:48, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • "While at the V&A, he published widely on embroidery from various periods, including a preface for Louisa Pesel's 1929 handbook for embroiderers based on seventeenth-century samplers and an exhibition catalogue co-written with his wife in the same year" is sourced to the ODNB which supports the information
    • "While there, he completed a research project on reliefs and royal portraits in Hellenistic sculpture" is sourced to Gill 2011 p. 104 which supports the information
    • "In April 1905, he made a survey alongside Albert William van Buren [de], of the American School of Classical Studies in Rome, of the Magnesian peninsula in Thessaly." is sourced to Gill 2011 p. 179 which supports the information
    • "During their Thessalian travels, Wace, Thompson and Arthur Woodward, with whom Wace made some of his visits, also noted several ancient inscriptions, some of which they published themselves; Woodward also published other texts collected by Wace and Thompson" is sourced to Gill 2011 p. 108 which supports the information
  • Lead:
    • "he surveyed widely in the northern Greek region of Thessaly" Perhaps a link or better explanation of the archaelolgical meaning of "survey" which is different than the usual meaning of geological surveys
  • Early life:
    • "He went up to Cambridge on" I realize this is a British term, but could we perhaps use something not so British? Perhaps just "He attended Cambridge"?
      • Not quite the same, unfortunately: the only good synonym I can think of is matriculated, and we've got that in the next sentence. It is a very common term in this particular context, especially for Oxford and Cambridge. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:11, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • "in which Wace obtained a First in part one of tripos." .... this is ... jargon. I see the link but ...
    • Okay, so we say he got a first in 1901 - but our article British undergraduate degree classification says that this system of classification was developed in 1918?
      • Hm: that's not quite accurate (I assume it means that the division between a 2:1 and a 2:2 dates to 1918, which may be accurate: those who didn't get a first simply got a "Second" in this period). I disagree that it's jargon: a First is simply the name of the grade, and there's no other way to say it. It's no different to saying that he studied "classics", and we do have a Wikilink to help explain. Could add something like "a First, the highest possible grade..."? UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:11, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Early academic career:
    • "following a government grant" again, can we avoid the Britishism - perhaps "benefiting from a government grant". I assume this is the British government, but this should be made clear.
      • I've slightly rephrased. Also clarified: I suppose it could theoretically have been the Italian government. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:11, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • "who had been incapacitated by malaria-related ill health" the detail of why Jones was incapacitated is really not needed here - suggest "Wace acted as assistant to Thomas Ashby, who was himself acting as director due to the ill health of the actual director Henry Stuart Jones."
    • "engaged in an extended campaign in the" campaign is really very military - suggest "engaged in extensive excavations in the"
      • It's also very archaeological: campaign is very much the standard term here (that's before we get into the fact that many of these archaeologists saw what they were doing as a quasi-military operations). The campaign included surveys, restorations and other activities as well as excavations, so I think it's good to be somewhat vague. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:11, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Outside Laconia, he worked with Ernest Gardner, who organised archaeological tours of Athens, contributed to a survey of Athens's Byzantine churches, and collaborated on studies of the church of Hagia Irene and of the base of the Obelisk of Theodosius, both in Istanbul." this is ... unclear. Did he work with Gardner on all of these, or just some of them?
      • Still to do: I'll check the sources as to exactly what he did. Done: it was just the tours. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:49, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Post-war archaeology:
    • "He also donated £100 (equivalent to £4,273 in 2021) towards the project, to be used for the excavation of the monument known as the Tomb of Aegisthus." Why is this detail on Evans important to Wace? I suggest removing it.
      • It's important for the later split between the two: Evans financially backed Wace because he thought he would find evidence to support his Minoan hypothesis, and ended up bitterly splitting with him because he found the opposite. I think it's also UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:11, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Under Wace and Blegen's model, the tholoi were correctly dated considerably later than both Grave Circle A " why is "correctly" dated here? I don't see it supported and it really doesn't add anything
      • Still to do: I'll find more explicit support: I think it's important to be clear that Wace and Blegen were (fairly obviously) right, and that in everyone except Evans' mind, Wace settled the "Helladic Heresy" (which then has implications for Evans' opposition to him: it's a matter of personal animosity rather than because Wace was wrong). UndercoverClassicist T·C Done: Galanakis explicitly say that Wace was right about the dating on p. 255; the consequences of being right are already set out on the cited p. 242. UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:03, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • "whom Wace hired in 1920 for what was de Jong's first archaeological job." Again... why is this important?
      • De Jong is a very well-known name in archaeological drawing; I think it's significant to note that Wace gave him his start in the industry. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:11, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Victoria and Albert:
    • Did he publish anything on ancient Greek archaelogy/history during his time at the V&A?
      • Not that I know of: I did a pretty thorough search for his publications, but don't pretend that the list I have is exhaustive. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:11, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Laurence Professorship:
    • "their acquaintance allowed British and American intelligence to cooperate more effectively in Cairo than had been the case elsewhere, particularly in İzmir." first - suggest "than was the case" and second - why is Izmir important to mention?
      • Still to do: Honestly, I mentioned it because the source does: I assume that the point was that Izmir was particularly bad, rather than that British and American intelligence were always a dysfunctional pairing. I'll have a look back at the source: I suspect it can be cut with no problems. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:11, 21 February 2024 (UTC) Done: This one really goes the other way -- it's explicitly Izmir that was the problem, so I've fallen into line with that. UndercoverClassicist T·C[reply]
  • Professorship at Alexandria:
    • So - back when Wace was at the V&A we are told "The Greek embroideries he collected with Dawkins formed the basis of the V&A's collection of these objects." but then here after WWII, we have "he loaned his extensive collection of Greek embroideries to the Liverpool Museum, which later purchased them" ... which is correct?
      • Still to do. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:11, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        • OK: for the first, we have he early embroidery collections of Wace and Dawkins form the basis of significant collections of museums, such as the Victoria and Albert Museum in the source. For the second, we have He himself owned a fine collection of Greek embroideries which was placed on loan with Liverpool Museum (now the National Museums and Galleries on Merseyside) after the Second World War and subsequently sold to the museum.. I don't see a contradiction here: to me, the likely explanation is that he and Dawkins collected a lot of tapestries: many of these ended up in the V&A, but many others were in Wace's own collection in 1945, and went from there to Liverpool. Happy to take a steer if there's a better way to get across what's in teh sources. UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:03, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've put the article on hold for seven days to allow folks to address the issues I've brought up. Feel free to contact me on my talk page, or here with any concerns, and let me know one of those places when the issues have been addressed. If I may suggest that you strike out, check mark, or otherwise mark the items I've detailed, that will make it possible for me to see what's been addressed, and you can keep track of what's been done and what still needs to be worked on. Ealdgyth (talk) 15:57, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Ealdgyth -- thanks for your comments above. I've put still to do where I need to check a source: a few replies to the others, but most straightforwardly sorted. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:11, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Most of these look good, just waiting on the ones you've marked to still do. Ealdgyth (talk) 22:37, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks -- probably won't be able to get to them for a few days, but it's on my radar for when I can. Appreciate your time so far. UndercoverClassicist T·C 07:23, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ealdgyth: I think everything's resolved, though you might want to take a look in particular at the last point. UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:03, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Changes look good - on the last point, I was hoping there was something out there that was able to clear up the confusion - but it doesn't appear there is. Can't write something that isn't supported by sources... Passing this now. Ealdgyth (talk) 14:36, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Much obliged -- thank you for your time and work here. UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:42, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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