Talk:A21 road (England)/Archive 1

Roads joined

Why are the "roads joined" in numerical order, rather than the order that the road actually crosses them? The latter would be a lot more useful! Halsteadk (talk) 19:18, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree there seems to be cases such as this on other road articles with numerical order instead of the order the road actually crosses them. FM (talk) 11:52, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Superfluous headings

I could see no reason for having all those sub-headings in this article. The road is relatively short, and to break them up in that way served little purpose, particularly since some of them - Mountfield is a good example - had nothing in the one sentence that followed to do with the heading! It also has a heading Tunbridge Wells: the A21 has never in its history since 1926 gone through Tunbridge Wells, and the new bypass doesn't bypass it: it ended further north. If you feel that is essential, then why not try two parts - the section after the bypass has a different feel than the first?

I also have the following comments and have amended the article accordingly:

• At the beginning the article says "through traffic uses the A20 all the way to the M25 - it might well do so - but we are not talking about TRAFFIC, but the A21.
• The section near Kippings Cross is a spur taking the traffic to the M25
• The A21 doesn't OVERLAP with the M25 it temporarily disappears, and the M25 doesn't "have to turn off on a sliproad" - it is the A21 that leaves it by another spur - unusually on the right. One should always use a map and not what it looks like on the road itself!
• What is "negating": the traffic on the A21 negotiates all the roads in order to escape London
• "Here you get your first roundabout" - articles should be written in a formal style (see here

Finally I have a plea. Why don't you Kentem have a talk page like all of us? You are creating a great many problems - not just on this page but on many of the other 1500 editings you have done, by changing and adding to articles when there is no ;way you could be correct. I am attempting to sort out the complicated state of the Hastings article and many of that article's problems stem from your editing. Peter Shearan (talk) 15:23, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

The M25 DOES use a slip road, it then (heading anticockise) turns on to the M26 which ends there. The motorway section IS the A21 since it a. on the m25 when its about to turn off say A21 and not (A21). and later even before the motorway section ends it is marked as A21, hence it is the A21 under motorway regulations rather than a road leading to the A21. also i do have a talk page(talk) Kentm (talk) 17:58, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

This is incorrect, the section of road that links the main M25 and the southbound A21 is still classified as the M25 by the Highways Agency (ref the HA's Pavement Management System - the definitive HA network) and the Ordnance Survey (ref MasterMap Integrated Transport Network dataset - although the HA's classification is definitive), despite the signs. The signs quote "A21" to distinguish from which side of the branch to follow to continue on the M25 - this is vital as this is the one place on the M25 where you have to take a slip road to continue on it. If it was the A21 under motorway regulations, it would be the "A21(M)", and it is most certainly never classified as that. The signs probably should quote "(A21)" strictly speaking, but regardless of that you're still on the M25 for this section. Halsteadk (talk) 18:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

also all the external links seem to say so as well

Kippings Cross is the roundabout south of pembury

which is nowhere near the M25,

Do you mean the section at junction four before the A21 dissappears and runs concurrent

with the m25 and then regains it again after the m25 uses a slip road and the A25 junction? FM (talk) 14:09, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Primary Destinations?

Why isn't Tonbridge a primary destination. It is at the junction with the A21/A26 FM (talk) 17:43, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Primary Destinations, as a defined term, are specified by the Local Transport Note 1/94 published by the Department of Transport. I don't know why it wasn't included, but as far as I am aware, this has been the only officially-published document listing Primary Destinations in the UK. If you are aware of any other official guidance, please amend the article List of primary destinations on the United Kingdom road network and provide reference to that source.  — MapsMan [ talk | cont ] — 08:47, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

All other sources i have found list Tunbridge Wells as a pd kentm (talk) 20:54, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Just to clear up. Sevenoaks is not that close to Tonbridge. kentm (talk) 14:03, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - what sources are they?  — MapsMan [ talk | cont ] — 10:12, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

All road atlas ive seen also its obvious that

At least one of the places (Tonbridge and Tunbridge Wells) since Tonbridge is at the A21/A26 and a lot of traffic goes to Tunbridge Wells which is is often the cause of congestion in that area. kentm (talk) 16:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Kentem, could you please sign your posts with your username, not an alternative name. You are giving the impression that you're masking your identity. Halsteadk (talk) 18:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Links to HA site

st I have swapped and sorted them, They both work now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freakmighty (talk • contribs) 14:51, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Sevenoaks and Tonbridge

Have added the copyedit template to this section as it is hard to understand, seems to be factually incorrect in places or contain own research masquerading as facts, and some sentences are not complete sentences. I drive this road every day and I hardly recognise it! I'll probably pop back and tidy it up myself when I get a moment if no-one beats me to it. Halsteadk (talk) 19:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

and I have actually changed this to say Badgers Mt to Pembury since this is actually the area it covers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.105.160.254 (talk) 08:46, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Citation needed?

I notice this when it says: The kippings cross to lamberhurst section has a high accident rate, The Reference iss there kentm (talk) 20:09, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Moved from 'Hastings Ring Road'

Move

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Suggest move to Hastings Ring Road? Think outside the box 17:42, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok thats already there... Think outside the box 17:43, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

The trouble with moving the article is that there is no Hastings Ring Road. Nuttah (talk) 17:47, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I just realized that! Should this be a speedy then if its completely fake? Think outside the box 17:52, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

There is, there is signs and this route follows that (though it is not complete). look on a map and you will see, it is kind of semi-circular. thats why the article should NOT be deleted.User:Kentem (talk) 20:48, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Do you have some sources for this or a picture of the sign? I've looked and I see what you could mean google map link, but unless someone can provide a source stating that is specifically called Hastings ring road, the content is already covered by A2100, A28, A259 and A21. Think outside the box 12:05, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

User:Kentem (talk) 09:10, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Why does this redirect to A21. The ring road is the A2100 and those two B roads FM [ talk to me | show contributions ]  16:14, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Oakhurst

After various edits I decided to bring this up here: The village of Oakhurst does appear on map's including OS, Philips and the AA. Therefore the reference should be kept although maybe with a reference to the A225/B245. Any Comments? FM [ talk to me | show contributions ]  18:17, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that although it is shown on most maps, it is NOT a "village", along with an awful lot of other names on maps. Note that the typeface on the OS maps is much smaller than for Hildenborough or Sevenoaks Weald, which are both villages. Being a very local resident of many years I can assure you of this, and I would guess that most people would not have even heard of it. It is a handful of houses and a truck garage on a crossroads, not even enough to warrant a drop in speed limit on the B245. It does not appear on any signs, therefore would be unrecognisable for anyone on the A21 (and is practically unnoticeable as a settlement along the B245) - it is a "hamlet" at best. Some respect for local knowledge would benefit this article, rather than just a blind survey of OS maps. It would be preferable to be more specific, ie rather than the "junction near Oakhurst" why not say the "junction with the A225/B245" - that will also solve this dispute. In terms of major signposted settlements, the "junction south of Sevenoaks" or "junction north of Hildenborough" would be more appropriate. Halsteadk (talk) 17:46, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Although I see where your coming from, The standard on a road article is to put the name of the nearest settlement. As I have mentioned already, why not say "Junction with the A225/B245 near Oakhurst"? That would solve the dispute and name both the roads and nearest settlement. FM [ talk to me | show contributions ]  18:02, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

The reason for not mentioning such an insignificant "settlement" is that readers will need to have an OS 1:50k or 1:25k map in front of them to cross-refer to Oakhurst. Oakhurst is not mentioned on road signs, there is no "welcome to Oakhurst" sign or anything else. Some maps such as Google Maps don't mention it at all - although G Maps is hardly authoritative compared with the OS it does suggest that it is not significant, and OS doesn't show it at 1:250,000. It is not helpful to mention such an insignificant place. The "junction with the A225/B245 between Sevenoaks and Tonbridge" would be far more appropriate. Bearing in mind the distance between junctions on the A21 this is a more appropriate "scale" - if there was a junction near Oakhurst, another at Stocks Green, another at Haysden etc, then mentioning smaller places would then be more appropriate and necessary. Alternatively "...near Sevenoaks Weald" would be reasonable as that is the nearest settlement that is significant enough to be shown on all maps (and it's signposted from the junction). Halsteadk (talk) 13:13, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

It isn't just on OS, as I said, it is also on the Philips and, sometimes, AA maps of the UK. However Oakhurst and Sevenoaks Weald are both a similar distance from each other, so since Sevenoaks Weald is the larger settlement (and, of course, shown on the signs) it is good to keep it at that. FM [ talk to me | show contributions ]  17:06, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, Sevenoaks Weald is fine. Cheers, Halsteadk (talk) 20:01, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:A21 road/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

This article does not meet the good article criteria and has therefore failed its nomination. Issues include:

• Insufficient references
• "Overall view of the road" – no refs
• "The route in detail" – almost no refs
• "Proposed Improvements" is well referenced though
• remove "Gallery" – that belongs on the Wikimedia Commons
• Format references per WP:CITE/ES to include publisher and access dates

Once these issues have been resolved, feel free to renominate the article. Thanks! Gary King (talk) 17:36, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Do the first two even need refs? as they are descriptions of the route? Has anyone notified the nominator about this fail? FM [ talk to me | show contributions ]  17:26, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

That information typically uses a route diagram or something similar as a reference, such as in New Jersey Route 48 and other similar road GAs. Gary King (talk) 17:39, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Peer Review

A21 road

• A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for September 2008.

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because the article has improved very well recently and is actually one of the best UK road articles I have seen which lacks GA status.

Thanks, FM [ talk to me | show contributions ]  17:31, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

• The A21 is used for the 55-mile Maydayrun to Hastings which claims to be the largest non-organised event in the UK[2], attracting over 20,000 bikers. Are the bikers...motorcycles or bicycles?
• four miles (6.3 mi)' this conversion didn't work  :-) You may wish to use the {{mi to km|6.3}} conversion template which will automatically do the conversion for you and it also looks after the   breaking space called for by Manual of Style for numbers. if you used the template, the M of S numbers will be fixed regarding space for the next distance.. twenty miles (32km) where no space is given at 32 km....and numerals over 9 are not written out in words, but rather left as numbers...ie 20 miles. ...1.7 mile (2.7km) ...25 miles (40km) no spaces ever between the numbers and the km....but just covert to conversion templates.
• Wikilink the term short dual carriageway as in Canada this is called a twinned highway, and in the United States this is called a divided highway.
• In the section...The route in detail... London...there are quite a few placenames,...can they be wikilinked? Lewisham, Catford, Bromley Hill, Farnborough, etc
• Wikilink the term multiplexes as that probably is only well known to highway editors, and civil engineers.
• The M25 then 'TOTSOs' Hmmm? is TOTSOs a verb? spell out the acronym and wikilink if possible.
• The dual carriageway is more bendy than before and has less bridges. I don't know if more bendy is quite correct grammar.
• You get to a second road to Tunbridge Wells (the A264). don't talk to the reader as in using the word you. Rephrase the sentence...perhaps... There is a second road to ....
• From here the road is generally more straight than normal Re phrase or use citation for this fact. Normal has to be defined..what is nortmal...whose normal, or just say the road has a straight stretch.
• Later on from the end of this bypass at Kippings Cross, the final 25 miles (40km) of the A21 is generally an often winding single carriageway road with several steep gradients across the Weald. In this sentence...this phrase...often winding single carriageway road...is it occasionally sometimes not winding, it just winds often? Me thinks it needs rephrasing to say what the road does all the time, not just what it does often.
• This sentence ...There are few major centres of habitation and the road has remained a "poor relation" insofar as widening schemes are concerned..... The phrase "poor relation" is not used in common usage in other countries, so rather than a metaphor in an encyclopaedia, use the exact terminology.... the road has no need of being widened....the road has not been widened...
• Fix At the The most recent bypass

• Press reports such as this are commonplace. I don't want to click on the word this to find out what the press report says. paraphrase the report and add the prose to the article...such as....Hastings Today reported that a 22 kilometres (14 mi) section of the A21 is the worst highway of the south east, ane the 38th worst road in the country.
• South of the junction with the A25, the road enters the longest dual carriageway section along its length, the Sevenoaks and Tonbridge bypasses, which generally have two lanes in each direction. In this section the way it is written, there are only two lines in each direction sometimes, and not always,..due to the word generally.
• There is also a local turning later on into Pembury. remove irrelevant words...There is a turning later in Pembury.
• On October 2005 the "Preferred Route" to deal with the 3 mile (4.75km) section south of Kippings Cross was announced :see details here. The encyclopaedia is to tell the readers facts about the A21, and allow them access to more information via citations. Don't send the reader away to read the facts....Don't tell the reader see details here....rather....On October 2005 a preferred route was announced to alleviate congestion and traffic concerns on a 3 miles (4.8 km) section south of Kippings Cross.....The reader can always follow the link given in the citation which does the same thing as see details here
• However, some work has been completed. One of these, delete these extraneous words...Just say The 2 miles (3.2 km) £18 million Lamberhurst bypass, was opened on 23 March 2005. Whenever currency is mentioned, wikilink the currency sign identifying th country's currency origin.
• wikilink land bridge rather than "land bridge"
• The first mention of scotney castle got capitals and a wikilink!! good. The second time not even any capitals  :-(
• wikilink roundabout. Why is it called a gyratory system earlier and now a roundabout. Are they different there?
• link messed up...Flimwell]] bypass.
• . It opened in 1992. what opened in 1992 the main street, te village or the bypass. It refers to the last mentioned noun.
• * Plans have been published (see here) for a new dual carriageway between the southern end of the Flimwell bypass and the beginning of the Robertsbridge bypass. This would bypass Hurst Green.

nope I will not (see here). Please paraphrase and give citation.

• From John's Cross the original route of the A21 passed through Battle and entered Hastings at Wishing Tree: this road is now the A2100 (and still meets the A21/A28 at Baldslow). too long of a sentence. No colon plop in a period.... then remove te parenthesis.
• The present route takes the road to the east on a relatively straight, though undulating, journey, bypassing Sedlescombe before climbing a four-mile (6.4km) long hill to enter Hastings under a road bridge; the A21 has a junction here with the Hastings ring road, Too long of sentence. Does undulating here mean hilly? No semi colon but rater a period should be inserted. Period at sentence end not a comma..
• The A28 and the A2100 and then continues through Baldslow where the A2101 makes for the town centre, Silverhill and Bohemia and eventually to the town centre to meet the A2101 again which meets the a259 coast road. something missing after the second and The A28 and the A2100 and then...should it be The A28, A2100 and the A2101 continue.... Does the A2101 make for the town centre...sounds very violent in a way. Maybe another re-wording would be that the A2101 heads for the town centre. The whole sentence is hard to read. As the A2101 heads for those the town centre, and two other places, and then circles back and goes to the town centre again??
• The current plans are to dual the rest of the road through Kent and there are also plans to improve sections through East Sussex which may cause the lane on the short dualled section through the Kent/East Sussex border to reopen ....Loose the and create two sentences.
• I am having deja vu....Why does the section Kippings Cross to Lamberhurst under Proposed Improvements repeat word for word verbatim the same words as the section Pembury to Lamberhurst under The route in detail. I really was reading, and I learned this already.  :-) Don't say the same stuff more than once. Pick the best section and stuff it there only.
• There are no footways on this section and the verges are either very narrow or non-existent. The route alignment is poor and there are numerous frontages with direct access to the trunk road. The narrow verges limit visibility and this, combined with the numerous bends and crests, limits safe overtaking opportunities. This section is a direct quote from another article. It has to be shown like this...

There are no footways on this section and the verges are either very narrow or non-existent. The route alignment is poor and there are numerous frontages with direct access to the trunk road. The narrow verges limit visibility and this, combined with the numerous bends and crests, limits safe overtaking opportunities.

— Highways Agency - A21 Kippings Cross to Lamberhurst Improvement

or some similar quotation template of your choice...Never ever plagiarize other people's works.

• These schemes have also been proposed[22]:

Flimwell to Scotney Castle Robertsbridge to Baldslow Convert this into prose, a regular paragraph.

• There are more than one inline citation style used in the article by looking at the reference section. Pick one method of citing sources and continue on....I have given the method of citation templates in the above examples.

• The A1 road (London) has 100 references citations...compared with 22 each for the A21. Each and every fact requires a citation, and it is good to have one or two references for each and every paragraph as well.
• The article does meet some of the GA criteria-but improvements need be made.
• References made by the citation templates used above look like this...

• I hope this is of some help. Good luck and kind regards SriMesh | talk 02:08, 26 September 2008 (UTC)