Talk:23rd Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Kama (2nd Croatian)/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Retrolord (talk · contribs) 10:52, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

I'll start this one shortly. ★★RetroLord★★ 10:52, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	" Fierce fighting broke out between the Ustaše, Chetniks and Partisans in NDH territory." Not sure how that sentence links to the one before it, is one of those groups the muslims reffered to in the previous sentences? "The Bosnian Muslims' dissatisfaction with the Ustaše rule of the NDH and their need for protection were combined with nostalgia for the period of Habsburg rule in Bosnia and a generally friendly attitude towards Germany among prominent Bosnian Muslims. " This sentence does not make sense, it just lists four things. I recomend a rewrite of it and the next one so it is clearer. "The Germans wanted to establish a second Muslim SS division,[14] as Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler had a goal to expand Waffen SS recruiting in the Balkans and form two territorial corps of two divisions each in both the Bosnian region of the Independent State of Croatia and in Albania, which with the 7th SS Volunteer Mountain Division Prinz Eugen would form a Balkan SS mountain army of five divisions." This whole sentence needs to be rewritten for clarity. It is confusing and doesn't flow well due to it's length, would recomend splitting into two or perhaps 3 sentences. Request: I won't let this negatively impact my review, but could you please not list the full German rank and then the English equivalent as it becomes quite long and ruins the flow of the article. Example " SS Brigadeführer and Generalmajor of Waffen SS (Brigadier) Karl-Gustav Sauberzweig" But i'll leave it up to you. Article claims it was named Kama in the lead, but in the infobox it lists it as a nickname?
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	"immediately launched a vicious campaign" Coudl you rewrite to remove the vicious? "The Germans wanted to establish a second Muslim SS division" Could you rewrite this to be more formal? "the key Waffen SS recruiting office" I think we should remove the word "key"
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	Some paragraphs are missing/unclear regarding citations This para: "Despite Pavelić's assurances of equality with the Croats, many Muslims quickly became dissatisfied with Croatian rule. An Islamic leader reported that not one Muslim occupied an influential post in the administration. Fierce fighting broke out between the Ustaše, Chetniks and Partisans in NDH territory. Some Ustaše militia units became convinced that the Muslims were communist sympathizers, and burned their villages and murdered many civilians. The Chetniks accused the Muslims of taking part in the Ustaše violence against Serbs and perpetrated similar atrocities against the Muslim population. The Muslims received little protection from the Croatian Home Guard, the regular army of the NDH, whom the Germans described as "of minimal combat value"." This paragraph only has one reference? Makes some fairly bold unreferenced claims? This bit: "On 28 May 1944, Hitler gave his formal approval for the creation of the division, and its formation began on 19 June. It was initially to be created and trained in Bosnia but Himmler, following the advice of the then commander of the 13th SS Division, SS Brigadeführer and Generalmajor of Waffen SS (Brigadier) Karl-Gustav Sauberzweig, agreed to form the division in the neighbouring Bačka region occupied by Hungary instead. Sauberzweig believed that if the division was raised in the NDH, Ustaše interference would undermine the morale of the recruits. Orders were given to the 13th SS Division to provide a cadre for the new division, and SS Standartenführer (Colonel) Hellmuth Raithel, a regimental commander from the 13th SS Division, was appointed as the new division's commanding officer." This bit: "The 10,000 men necessary to form the division were to be obtained through a combination of volunteers, conscription of Muslims born in 1926 and 1927 who had not volunteered for particular Ustaše units, and if necessary, from the various Muslim militias in the NDH. These men were to be made available to the Germans by 15 September 1944." "Anti-Partisan operations" Can we get a citation for this bit in the infobox?
	2c. it contains no original research.	None that I can see
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.	"In early 1943, Hitler authorised the raising of the first SS division to be recruited from a non-Germanic people, the 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian)" Was this division comprised of the autonomists mentioned in the previous sentence?
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).	"They included three non-commissioned officers from every company of the 13th SS Division." I think this is unneccessary detail.
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.
	7. Overall assessment.	Pending

Thanks for the review. I take issue with a number of your comments on the basis that some of the points you have raised are probably specific to military history articles (ie the way we deal with foreign ranks) and others (including a couple of paragraphs in the background) are straight lifts from an article I successfully took to FA. I will address your points on merit and re-submit. FYI, military is misspelt on your user page. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 10:26, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

If you'd like I can reassess it as soon as you nominate it again, just to speed things up for you. And thanks for the warning about my user page. Regards, ★★RetroLord★★ 10:37, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

I have now addressed almost all of the points listed above. The German rank formatting is as per numerous FA and MILHIST A-Class articles, and I don't intend to change it. Some German ranks are long, but using purely British or American equivalents is often not exact, and it is important that the full rank is provided to ensure the relative and comparative responsibilities are clear. The inclusion of the information about the NCOs shows the extent of the cross-pollination between the 13th SS and its sister division, and I do not believe its inclusion constitutes unnecessary detail.