Talk:2015 Rosh HaShanah death by stone-throwing

The whole article is preemptive in its judgement, fails Notability, and distorts by its selective use of sources.It should be deleted.

Note I = ref name=Hadid>"Jewish Man Dies as Rocks Pelt His Car in West Bank". NY Times. 14 September 2015. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/15/world/middleeast/israel-west-bank-violence.html?_r=0 A Jewish man died early Monday morning after attackers pelted the road he was driving on with rocks as he was returning home from a dinner celebrating Rosh Hashana, the Jewish New Year, the Israeli authorities said .A statement from the Israeli police said the assailants were throwing stones on Sunday night on a road that runs between a Palestinian and Jewish neighborhood in East Jerusalem. The police said the stone-throwing “led to a self-inflicted accident,” as the man lost control of the car and smashed into a pole.Ynet, an Israeli news site, quoted a woman who said that she was a passenger in the car and that it crashed after being hit by a thrown object. The site did not identify the woman.

(2) Man returning from Rosh Hashanah dinner loses control of car; police investigate if crash was result of stones being thrown at car or if driver had heart attack. A man in Jerusalem was fatally wounded on Sunday night, the eve of Rosh Hashanah, when he lost control of his car after it was reportedly pelted with stones. The vehicle struck a power line and tumbled into a roadside ditch. Police said they were investigating if stones thrown at the car caused the accident. Jerusalem police said the passengers were returning from a Rosh Hashanah holiday dinner when they drove on a route on which Arabs were throwing stones. However, questioning of the other passengers suggested that the driver had convulsed before losing control of the car, and police decided to continue investigating the cause of the accident. ('Driver dies in accident possibly caused by stone-throwing,' Ynet 14 September 2015)

An incident sub iudice or under a gag order, whose nature is not yet determined, cannot be, whatever the assertion of one of many assertions, be called 'a murder'. E M Gregory has an obsession with this topic, but this is getting farcical. Nishidani (talk) 15:39, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Name should probably be changed but I see a few articles just like that. In Israel at least, it has gotten a lot of coverage. Settleman (talk) 15:47, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

@Nishidani: @John Carter: Pls add an address of discussion for its deletion to your claim.

Regarding to NYT article - as already usual for it, see "Watchdog Accuses New York Times of Acting as ‘Apologist’ for Palestinian Rock-Throwing"

The rest RS see below. As I think after these RS & changing the title by Settleman, this claim is already not relevant. --Igorp_lj (talk) 23:34, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Nishdani acted disingenuously in citing initial NYTimes report published at time when cause of fatal crash was unknown, and in falsely asserting that cause of fatal crash is undetermined. Official investigation (reported in reliable sources in article and in other major news sources) determined that crash was the result of criminal rock-throwing. Notability established by international coverage, and by impact on government policy.E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:54, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Assuming that he actually died of something other then a heart attack, as Nutty and other Israelis allege, his death was caused by the expansionist settler Jew engaging in the practice of "taking land that doesn't belong to him and never will" and "being a Kahanist and a settler". Like all Israelis who're part of the occupation and the illegal "settlement" project, this man is totally and completely responsible for his own death.

It'd be easily preventable if he stayed in Israel proper, or better yet, in his real homeland-- Russia. The kyle 3 (talk) 20:04, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Point me to the relevant police report establishing as a fact that the incident was a result of a thrown rock. The Ynet source cites what one of the passengers said, namely that he appeared to have had a heart attack. Lists of what politicians say or secondary sources spin are pointless and meaningless. A criminal act always has police reports ('under investigation' in the sources). The numerous spins asserting this was a death due to stoning that came out for two days emerged as police were reporting only that they suspected this might be the case. It may well be that the reported heart attack is not inconsistent with being stoned, but until these things are clarified. The MfA report is dated 13 Sep 2015, and is so incompetent that it confuses the day the incident occurred with the day he died. The car crashed at 11 pm and he died the following morning on the 14th. The Ynet report, far more nuanced, was published 14 September 2015 at 19:02, 20 hours after the incident. Nishidani (talk) 16:35, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

• Nishdani, I take your insistence on this citation [1], here and at List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, July–December 2015 as your affirmation that journalism in Ynet can be used to reliably source facts.E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:45, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Could anyone provide such report for Duma arson attack when the article was created? Or even now? There are the words of Ya'alon but a report?? Settleman (talk) 18:36, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

@Nishidani: First of all, IMHO, it'd be fair if you'd apologized for such baseless accusations as "distorts by its selective use of sources, "Falsification", but ... you continue to persevere, nominating another such ones. Alas..

Thus, there were 12 "selective use" RS in the article till your accusations:

• (Falsification of sources +not notable) - What of them were "distorted" & "falsificated"?

Incidentally, one may accuse just you in a "selective use", because you haven't brought the following next paragraph from NYT :)

• "Luba Samri, a police spokeswoman, said the rock-throwing appeared to have caused the accident but that “nothing is 100 percent sure.”

However, NYT isn't so interesting here, it screwed up enough, having to change the West Bank to Jerusalem, etc. after Honest Reporting criticism:

* "Correction: September 16, 2015"

** "An earlier version of the headline with this article misstated the location of the rock-throwing attack. As the article correctly noted, it was in East Jerusalem, not the West Bank."

* "Correction: September 16, 2015 ..."

And regarding to your next same claims to MFA site: "The MfA report is" not "dated Sep 13, 2015", but points to a date of the deadly attacks, that's Sep 13 in this case. As I know, it's their usual practice. Apparently, your goal to delete this article "under any sauce", leads you to such false conclusions and accusations. It's a pity. --Igorp_lj (talk) 22:50, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

What "fails Notability" & "distorts" and who does "selective use of sources"?

The following RS prove that such claims are not correct, and we have to wait as min till results of investigations.

• President Reuven Rivlin : “This bloody attack, the murder of Alexander Levlovich, shows us once again that terror is terror – whether with rocks, guns or other weapons – and it shows us we must act firmly against all terrorism”
• Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu ... in the Jerusalem neighborhood of Armon Hanatziv where the rock was thrown earlier this week that caused the death of Alexander Levlovitz and declared “war” on those who throw rocks and petrol bombs. “Here, in the heart of Jerusalem, at a traffic island on a main road, a thug and criminal stands here, on a traffic island, takes a rock and throws again and again at the windshields of cars of Jerusalem residents until he manages to cause death – it did not kill, it murdered”
• Alexander Levlovich was killed in a rock attack on his car (Photo: Arik Abolof, Jerusalem Fire Services)
• Ambassador Ron Prosor on the "anti-Semitic" remarks of the Chairman of the Palestinian Authority, the violent events in Jerusalem, and the Security Council statement on the topic: “This past Sunday, as Jews around the world prepared to celebrate the Jewish New Year, Palestinian terrorists once again used the holiday season to instigate riots on the Temple Mount and to launch terror attacks, which lead to the murder of an Israeli citizen, Alexander Lebelovitch.

Igorp_lj (talk) 23:34, 19 September 2015 (UTC); 00:13, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

---

Nominating this article for deletion

As this is yet another pro-Israel puff piece of an article designed to focus on one settler who died because he's a settler on land that doesn't and will never belong to him. I see no value to the "article" outside of the typical and nauseating pro-Israel Wikipedia user tactic of writing up on each individual Jew who dies, in order to obscure the deaths of Palestinians at Jewish hands.

It's pathetic but sadly predictable. The kyle 3 (talk) 20:00, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

If you justify this man's death, you justified the 1400 civilians that died in Gaza in 2014. Wikipedia doesn't need people like you. --Bolter21 23:53, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

So you hold it to be true that the death of one settlerite Jew who belongs in Russia is "as bad" as the 1400 Palestinian non-combatants killed by the IDF last summer? I certainly don't care about Israelis in the Palestinian West Bank buying it, in comparison to those Palestinians who're killed by the IDF and the "settlers", but I see no overt "justification" of his death. The kyle 3 (talk) 09:55, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Changing the title of the "article"

A far more accurate name for this excuse of an article, if it has to stay up, is "death of Alexander Levlovich".

I would say "death of the 'settlerite' and foreign Russian Jew" but that's probably too long for the title. The kyle 3 (talk) 20:11, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi Gregory. Too bad everything I said about Levlovich is true. The kyle 3 (talk) 09:56, 2 October 2015 (UTC)