Talk:1954 FIFA World Cup final

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Untitled[edit]

Moved per consensus. --Pkchan 13:52, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Some things to note.[edit]

Hungary already got to finals in 1938 (lost to Italy), so the 1954 loss was not that suprising. There have been many accusations of the germans having used used doping in 1954 and hungarians demanded that fragments of vials found in the german dressroom be investigated. The germans then claimed they only gave Vitamin C in syringe to their players. But I heard the trainer admitted only two years ago they were in fact doping. Anyhow, no one needs to fear Hungary winning the FIFA WC until 2150 considering the present shamed state of magyar soccer. 195.70.48.242 10:56, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"You heard"? Did a little bird tell you?

There are no cites to vouch for the supposed "doping" claims. Ernham 18:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)ernham[reply]


I would strongly dispute the assertion that the 1954 defeat was 'not that surprising'. A great deal of evidence would go to undermine such a statement, far too much than to go into any great detail here but suffice it to say I would refer to my England v Hungary (1953) entry to give some type of background as to how strong Hungary were at the time.

I've added (again) a paragraph about the doping allegations. I've found an article I've referenced; hope it's enough, since all other infos I got are in an italian article, which is obviously impossible to read for many people. Asendoh 19:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I see someone removed it. But why? I think that's an important part for that final. The motivation of the revert is "there was no doping at the time", and that's just ridiculous. How about all the East Germany athlets before the 80s then? Asendoh 13:49, 9 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
if they make aspirin illegal for athletes in a given sport tomorrow, does that make all athletes that took ir prior to the rule being stated were "doping"? All your "evidence" is wreaks of a bunch of speculative sour grapes that borders on bigotry, entirely aside from the above analogy which demonstrates how ridiculous your assertions are.Ernham 06:21, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just reinstated DOCUMENTED information on possible doping by the Western German team in the final. Tapered (talk) 07:23, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In my view, best and fairest is to discuss the doping suspicions under "controversies", but to add that doping was not illegal in 1954. Henry Kaspar (talk) 21:00, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Effects on Hungary[edit]

Does anyone have any cites for this stuff?

added Henry Kaspar (talk) 04:16, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:1954 Football World Cup poster.jpg[edit]

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BetacommandBot (talk) 04:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

National anthem thing[edit]

"This was also the first time since the Second World War that the German national anthem was played in public."

I am pretty sure that the German national anthem has been played before post WW2, at official state events etc.134.60.117.210 (talk) 00:11, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dead link[edit]

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

--JeffGBot (talk) 17:59, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

removed and replaced Henry Kaspar (talk) 03:30, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Elo ratings[edit]

I added a sentence to the Pre-Final Team Status > Hungary section that PeeJay2K3 reverted immediately saying it wasn't relevant. If so, he may as well go ahead and delete the daily updated World Football Elo Ratings article too. As there was no official FIFA ranking before 1992, Elo is pretty much the only way to gauge how good a team at a certain point in time was, and it's sorta noteworthy if that happens to be the highest rating any team has ever acheived. If this is not relevant, why would two friendlies against England be noteworthy? Here's the offending sentence:

"From a statistical perspective, no team in the history of international football has ever held a higher Elo rating than the Hungarian team West Germany was facing on this day."

I just checked the 2010 World Cup Final's article and they are detailing Elo records there, so it's either both or none. I'll go ahead and put it back in. 79.204.231.25 (talk) 20:09, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Details[edit]

the name of Grosics written wrongly on green area... (It was written: Grocics! And that was wrong!)Böri (talk) 08:43, 20 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also Buzánszky and Morlock are misspelled, and the accents and Umlaute are missing on the Hungarian and German names. I don't know how to produce such a chart, but if someone does and would want to make the effort, it would seem worthwhile.Henry Kaspar (talk) 20:57, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
done in coop with SecretAgentJulio Henry Kaspar (talk) 23:29, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Enlargement of Article, December 2016[edit]

I have enlarged the article significantly in the past few days, expanding various sections and adding others (such as "path to the final", "lineups, tactics and conditions", "data-driven match analysis", "impact on Hungarian history", "Mighty Magyars and Heroes of Bern after 1954"). I kept almost all existing material, but rearranged it in a couple of instances such that it would better fit the flow of the reworked article. The exception are a couple of speculative sentences on German history that were marked with "reference needed". I replaced these with a quote from historian and journalist Joachim Fest, which expresses the same sentiment.Henry Kaspar (talk) 20:57, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

== 1954 line-up == (moved from secret agent Julio's talk page)

1954 line-up[edit]

Agent, thanks much for your preparedness to help, but at the same time, sorry that I undid our change - as the chart that is there now shows better the payers' effective position on the pitch. Bozsik played higher than Zakarias, for example, with Zakarias covering for Bozsik when Bozsik was attacking but not vice versa. Fritz Walter played deeper than Morlock, organizing the game from the center, while Morlock was really a second striker (Stossstuermer) behind Otmar Walter. And it is not true that Rahn and Schafer would have played higher up than Czibor and Toth, as your chart would suggest.

My trouble with the line-up chart (and hence the reason why I asked for help) was that I had difficulties putting in the right fonts an font sizes (as I had never worked with SVG before). But after many painful attempts, I am reasonably satisfied with how this came out. Cheers Henry Kaspar (talk) 21:41, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Henry Kaspar: Can you source this though? It currently appears as WP:OR to me. The line-up images are only supposed to be indicative anyway, not really a tactical formation (as there are too many variables and tactics that change throughout the match). Secret Agent Julio (talk) 22:14, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, of course. I will move the discussion to the talk page of the article and elaborate there. Cheers, Henry Kaspar (talk) 13:36, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I modeled my line-up after spielverlagerung.de. But an even better, as more authoritative, source is arguably the book of Gusztav Sebes (the Hungarian manager), which is also the standard source in the literature for explaining the Hungarian formation (for example, Jonathan Wilson's book "inverting the pyramid", page, 90). Here is Sebes' depiction of the German and Hungarian formation.
There are small differences between these charts. But they have in common that they show Fritz Walter as central playmaker rather than left inside forward, and on the Hungarian side Bozsik as deeplying playmaker instead of half-back, Hidegkuti as offensive midfielder instead of center forward, and Puskas somewhat more removed from the center than Kocsis. These are key features of the systems that both teams played, and any concise and reasonably accurate representation of the 1954 line-up should reflect them.
As for your chart, it forces a strict WM-formation on Germany, even though Germany didn't play strict a WM (due to Fritz Walter's special role). While for Hungary it makes partial adjustments: Hidegkuti is moved back and Kocsis/Puskas are moved forward, which is fine, but Boszik shows up as a standard half-back, which he wasn't, while Czibor and Toth are strangely pulled back into deep-lying positions (while, on the German side, Rahn and Schaefer are not). This is both inconsistent (forcing a WM formation on Germany but not on Hungary, moving Hidegkuti but not Boszik) and, at least partially, incorrect (the placement of the wingers). I wonder what source would vouch for this.
I will prepare a formation based on Sebes' book, and reference the book accordingly. Cheers, Henry Kaspar (talk) 14:13, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I adjusted the line-up image once more, it should be accurate according to the source. But again, these graphics are not meant to be exact tactical formations, just a general indication. Secret Agent Julio (talk) 17:41, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This is fine. And thanks for the improved referencing. Cheers, Henry Kaspar (talk) 20:37, 4 January 2017 (UTC) (P.S.: there is a reason why I - and Sebes - labeled Toth "M. Toth" in the line-up: there were two Toths in the Hungary team, Mihaly's brother Jozsef, who had played in the quarterfinals, sat on the bench. But this is not very important).[reply]
Alright, added his initial now. And the only reason I changed the file was due to the fact the other image seemed to have an issue with the kits. Cheers, Secret Agent Julio (talk) 21:07, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Question: adding quotes from Zimmermann's radio report[edit]

An editor requested more quotations for the Sebes/Zimmermann radio reports. For Sebes the source is the Kasza book (and can easily be added). For Zimmermann the quotes requested here come directly from his radio report that is available inter alia on youtube - i.e. from an audio rather than written document. How would one reference this correctly on wikipedia? Henry Kaspar (talk) 01:12, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress[edit]

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:1930 FIFA World Cup Final which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 14:31, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Doping Allegations[edit]

User Zsovar3 added material to the "doping allegations" section that (i) provides little relevant content beyond what was already there (WP:ROC), (ii) goes into detail beyond what is appropriate for an encyclopedia article (WP:TOOMUCH), and (iii) and bloats the article with general information that does not relate, or relates only very indirectly, to the 1954 World Cup Final and would better sit in an own article (WP:TOPIC).

I anticipate Zsovar3 may insist on his presentation, hence this section is to seek consensus (which should be possible). I specify the concerns below, and invite Zsvoar3 (and others) to chime in. Zsovar3's added text is in italics.

Richard Herrmann[edit]

"Several members of the team fell ill with jaundice, presumably from a contaminated needle, and of them, winger Richard Herrmann, died just eight years later of cirrhosis, at the age of 39."

Herrmann's death in 1962 adds nothing relevant to the doping suspicions beyond that several players contracted jaundice, presumably from a contaminated needle, which was already there. This is not a biographical article about Herrmann. Besides Herrmann did not even play in the 1954 final (if there is any result that his specific case could cast in doubt, it is the 3-8 of Germany against Hungary in the first round - the only match Herrmann played).

Erik Eggers and the 2013 study[edit]

"and the team physician Franz Loosgen said in 2004 that the players had only been given Vitamin C before the game.[47] In 2010, Erik Eggers [de] of the Humboldt University of Berlin challenged the validity of these claims, stating: "Vitamin C is not injected. This is very unusual. They could have just eaten an orange instead."[48] As the co-author of a study conducted by the University of Leipzig, he also hypothesized that the German players, unbeknownst to them, may have been injected with Pervitin (methamphetamine) – a stimulant given to soldiers in World War II.[49]

In 2013, the Süddeutsche Zeitung publicized details from the finished, 800-page study, in which Eggers and his team stated that the use of amphetamines became "normal" in German football from the end of the 1940s, and reaffirmed their previous claim that an unspecified number of players of the 1954 team received injections of Pervitin.[50] In an interview with Der Spiegel, Eggers also claimed that the German Football Association hampered their research by not allowing the team to access their archives.[51]"

The edits occupy two paragraphs to challenge a half-sentence claim by Losgen. The quote of "eating an orange" adds nothing of relevance (it is also duplicated in the reference), Eggers's hypothesis that the German players may have been given pervitin is now quoted twice, and his complaint about the German Football Federation inhibiting his work strays far from topic. Relevant seems that Vitamin is typically not injected, and potentially Eggers's claim that the use of amphetamines became normal in German football from the end of the 1940s - even though this is rather selective quoting (Eggers also notes that amphetamines were normal elsewhere, including in South America, for example).

Shortened text[edit]

The proposed version therefore reads as follows:

"Immediately after the match, rumors emerged that the German team had taken performance-enhancing substances. Several players fell ill with jaundice, presumably from a contaminated needle.[45] Members of the team later claimed they had been injected glucose,[46] and the team physician Franz Loogen said in 2004 that the players had only been given Vitamin C before the game.[47] These claims were challenged in 2010 by Erik Eggers [de], a German historian and sports journalist, who co-authored a 2013 study on "Doping in Germany" by the University of Leipzig. Eggers noted that that Vitamin C is typically not injected, and hypothesized that the German players, unbeknownst to them, may have been injected Pervitin (methamphetamine) – a stimulant given to soldiers in World War II.[49] According to Eggers, the continued use of amphetamines in German football became "normal" from the late 1940s.[50] In any case, doping was not illegal in 1954, with doping controls introduced by FIFA only in 1966.[52]"

Henry Kaspar (talk) 18:12, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the proposal above. However, I also wouldn't mind having some further info added, such as a sentence describing why several of the Germans took injections (with whatever substance) in the first place (Rahn had allegedly seen local footballers being given injections/doping during the South American tour with his club RW Essen). The Germans thus really weren't the only ones taking injections. Some of the German press, decades later (around 1995), even speculated that the Hungarians themselves took injections/doping as 6 players had died at quite a young age. Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 21:54, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am more than certain that my edits were misinterpreted, leading to actions far beyond my original intentions. Therefore, this response should be treated as a comment only, not as an argument. Rather than "pleading my case", I find it more beneficial to provide a list of references relevant to the discussion that may or may not be worth mentioning in the article. As long as the previous issues of the section are resolved and information that surfaced after 2010 is incorporated into the text, I will support any reasonable initiative.

In English:

  • Grohmann, Karolos (27 October 2010). Bramley, Jon (ed.). "Germany's '54 World Cup win could be drug-tainted - study". Reuters. Berlin. Retrieved 1 January 2023.
  • Radnedge, Keir (5 August 2013). "West Germany's culture of doping kept under wraps". World Soccer. Retrieved 1 January 2023.
  • Sachse, Jonathan (16 August 2013). "Doping in football". Deutsche Welle. Retrieved 1 January 2023.
  • Schiller, Kay (May 2015). "'When Saturday comes' : new books on German and international sports history" (PDF). Bulletin. 37 (1). Durham: German Historical Institute London: 57–72. ISSN 0269-8552. Retrieved 1 January 2023.

In German:

P.S. The whole title of the study is Doping in Germany from 1950 to today, and it was commissioned by the German Olympic Committee. – Zsovar3 (talk) 22:02, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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