Talk:Surgeon

Titles - Mr Surgeon

There is a good article on the topic that might be of interest. Should it be added to the article as an external link.

http://english.mingpao.com/cfm/database3.cfm?File=20130515/livenlearn/c66.txt

Headline text

Previous old discussion from the Talk:Surgery page from when Surgeon redirected to Surgery has been archived to: Talk:Surgery or Surgeon/ Archive.

Surgeons' salaries

The neurosurgery salary is listed at 1,337,000 which is obviously an (un)cleverly disguised 1337 or leet(elite) reference. If someone knows the actual values... make it so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.235.54.59 (talk) 19:18, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

The 2002 article link given for the table of salaries does not confirm any of the figures listed in the table. The 2001 figures in the article used as citation are much lower than what is represented in the table. Does anyone have more recent data, or any citations to support what is currently in the wikipedia article? 86.180.224.143 (talk) 18:10, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

I fixed up the salary section with an updated reference, and added some more clarifying info. Can someone look over the paragraph I added below the table, and make it more grammatically aesthetic? The information is correct, but I'm a terrible writer, so I feel like the sentences don't flow. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.213.113.237 (talk) 20:14, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Removing salary section. It's a) unencyclopedic; b) entirely US-centric (to correct this we would have to post a salary table for every single other country in the world); c) will become obsolete and require updating year on year on year. danno 19:57, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Surgeons' titles

Re British surgeons' use of "Mr," I wonder whether this could be related to their former privilege of being addressed as "Master" (in the original charter of the London College) or "Maister" (in Edinburgh and Glasgow). I don't know if this was a special privilege of their profession, or one they had in common with senior members of other craft guilds at the time. NRPanikker (talk) 17:50, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary,surgeons are adressed as Mister because surgery was originally performed by barbers with no medical qualifications.Physicians called themselves Doctor to distinguish themselves from barber-surgeons whose profession they considered inferior,in an example of reverse snobbery surgeons now consider Mr. the superior title.The red and white barbers pole represents a bandage on a bloody surgical wound,recalling their former profession.94.197.170.169 (talk) 23:27, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Low Status and Ignorance?

Wikipedia articles on "surgeon" and "surgery" tend to emphasise the practitioners past low status and lack of formal education and qualifications. This is grossly exaggerated.

The Hippocratic oath originally prohibited lithotomy, which had its own specialised practitioners, not surgery in general. Although dissection of the human body was rarely allowed in ancient Greece and Rome, surgeons were not always of low status. Think of Galen, who started his career as surgeon to the gladiators and achieved canonical status alongside Aristotle in the universities of mediaeval Europe.

Although surgeons and barbers were before modern times members of the same professional bodies, there was usually a distinction between the majority who did hair cutting, shaving and blood-letting and the much smaller group who performed surgical operations: the long gown (robe longue) versus short gown (robe court) members in the case of the College of Saints Cosmas and Damien, the forerunner of the Royal Academy of Surgery in Paris. The babers-surgeons' guilds in the British Isles had similar divisions.

This may parallel the separation, as late as 1617, of the Worshipful Society of Apothecaries, who sold medicines, from the older Company of Grocers, who sold spices in London.

A I have said above, qualified surgeons were allowed by royal charters in England and Scotland to use versions of the title of "master." In Paris, although surgeons were excluded from the Faculty of Medicine and so could not become Doctors of Medicine, they had their own School of Surgery which awarded titles of bachelor and master. They were originally subject to the supervision of physicians, but eventually managed to escape that. When the Universities reopened after the French revolution, the medical course could terminate with the degree of Doctor of Medicine or Doctor of Sugery. This was not a new invention: Maister Peter Lowe, the founder of the Faculty of Physicians and Surgeons in Glasgow and author of the first English language surgical textbook, describes himself on its title page as a Doctor of Surgery from Paris.

Before the surgical colleges were there to examine and qualify apprentices, the bishops and archbishops of England were able to examine and licence both men and women to practice various professions, including medicine, surgery and midwifery. (See the Lambeth Palace Library's website).

The universities of Oxford and Cambridge also issued such licences (licentiae ad practicandum, as opposed to licentiae docendi) and these were at one time more commonly obtained than the degrees of bachelor and doctor of medicine. This accounted for only a small proportion of those in surgical practice. There were at one extreme those who skipped the BA to go directly in five years to the Licence in Medicine and then join the Royal College of Physicians in London (and adopt the title of doctor) to work as physicians, and at the other a few who studied for a dozen years and obtained an MD degree before the surgical licence.

Despite the struggles between top-ranking physicians and surgeons, most medical practice was carried out by less elevated men who covered both medicine and surgery. In England they used to be called apothecaries, surgeons or surgeon-apothecaries before the term general practitioner came into use. In Scotland, although the universities gave Doctor of Medicine degrees, their graduates were competent in both fields, as were the Licentiates of the surgical corporations in Scotland and Ireland. Pure surgery and pure medicine were possible only in the big cities. NRPanikker (talk) 15:26, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

We need to remember that healers are demanded in every society. Some were scientific, others not. Some were ignorant, others not. When talking about the inconsistency of treatment there is no exaggeration.75.187.40.50 (talk) 03:07, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Salaries

I know for a fact the salary scale is way off. Most neurosurgeons in the US rarely make 1mil a year, let alone 8. Wikifan12345 (talk) 09:11, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

1200 Transplant Surgeons?

What's the '1200 transplant surgeons' referring to? IN the world? Now? As well as a citation, it needs some information about what the fact is actually saying. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.39.41 (talk) 13:09, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Non-UK titles for surgeons

'By contrast, physicians and surgeons in countries other than the UK are always addressed as "Doctor."'

I think this is incorrect. Some Australian surgeons use the title Mr. For example in this listing http://www.doctors-4u.com/adelaide/special.htm . I've also seen it on information boards at surgery clinic reception areas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.210.228.145 (talk) 06:38, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

"Titles" par

The Titles paragraph is badly written, muddled, and confusing. It badly needs revision. Myles325a (talk) 07:24, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Who's the father?

Under "Pioneer Surgeons", the article has both Abu al-Qasim al-Zahrawi and John Hunter as "the father of modern surgery". I don't think we could have two. There is a citation for al-Zahrawi, but I don't see any to support Hunter. If there's only one father the article should be corrected. If there are actually two they should each be "one of the fathers". I'll bow to others' knowledge of this.Twistlethrop (talk) 12:26, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Editrequest

Please add Category:Surgery

[[Category:Surgery|*]]

-- 70.50.151.11 (talk) 13:44, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Done — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(t • e • c)} 14:30, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

provincialism

Why is this article so vested in British nomenclature for the profession?? Seems of dubious importance overall. Also, where might one find an entry about surgeons elsewhere, e.g., the United Stares? Training, qualifications, specialties, etc..? This article is totally lacking in what a reader might expect to learn. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CF99:2080:A199:DF52:8798:581 (talk) 00:06, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

It's refreshing to find an article, however ham-fisted, that is NOT fixated on describing the current situation in the United States to the exclusion of all else. NRPanikker (talk) 23:44, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Restoring entry for al-Zahrawi

The edit by User:Gaon Noag dated 2017-10-05 at 04:41:22 deleted the entry under Pioneer Surgeons for al-Zahrawi. There was no explanation for the deletion and I don't know how it was justified. (There's no user page for Gaon Noag, whose last edit was in October 2017).
In the light of the known facts about al-Zahrawi and his influence as a surgeon, I've restored the entry as it was before the edit with a suitable revision of the "father of surgery" part; if somebody has a burning desire to remove it again, I hope they will also give an explanation.Twistlethrop (talk) 23:08, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Chirurgeon

This term redirects here, but there is nothing said about the term in the article itself. 2601:18D:4501:6F61:CD77:C398:90CE:FB85 (talk) 02:30, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

This is an older form of the word "surgeon", which is closer to the French "chirurgien" and makes clearer its Greek origin as "cheirourgos" from "cheir" meaning "hand" and "ourgos" meaning "work." It survives in its Latin form as the "Ch" in "M.B. Ch.B." "Cheir" also lives on in "chiropody," "Chiropractic" and "cheiromancy." NRPanikker (talk) 12:53, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

It also contributes the "C" in the "M.D. C.M." awarded by Canadian medical schools. NRPanikker (talk) 12:57, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Ancient Greece

The article currently states that surgery was largely ignored before Al-Zahrawi, which ignores many important Greco-Roman surgeons, notably Galen. Perhaps this section should be rewritten and brought closer to the article on surgery in structure. Harrymsdrew (talk) 00:32, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

No mention of "Ship's Surgeon"

Seems like mention should be made of ship surgeon title. Ricko2001 (talk) 00:38, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: College Composition II

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 January 2024 and 25 April 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Albert Lento (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Albert Lento (talk) 16:30, 2 April 2024 (UTC)