Talk:Leaky gut syndrome

Leaky gut vs. Increased intestinal permeability

I am struggling with reconciling the "leaky gut" fad with the very real concept of "increased intestinal permeability". It seems that there is evidence that a "leaky gut" (which seems just a more layman way to describe increased intestinal permeability) can, in fact, contribute to a number of diseases and conditions, especially as it relates to autoimmunity and inflammation. That said, it is clear there are a lot of people peddling leaky gut misinformation and/or claims without evidence. I'll work to find the right balance of this, but I'd love any additional input. HumetheHistorian (talk) 03:06, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

The distinction between the quackery and non-quackery needs to be clear; that is why there are two articles with a hat note. The quackery goes in this one. Alexbrn (talk) 05:15, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

That is fair! I'll try to add a little language to make the distinction as clear as possible on both pages. I think I was struggling because quackery is hardest to define when it contains a substantial element of truth. Thanks for your input. HumetheHistorian (talk) 23:06, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

I think you achieved the opposite. The scams and health fraud go in this article, the actual science in the other one. Alexbrn (talk) 05:36, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Phrasing the distinction this way doesn't seem to exist in the scientific community. Hundreds of NIH grants go to research with published papers using the phrase "Leaky Gut" that alias to intestinal barrier and permeability research. Tonytopper (talk) 23:25, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

The article is not about "leaky gut", but about the fake medical condition most usually called "leaky gut syndrome". Because the terminology is confusing Wikipedia needs to disambiguate the topic space. Bon courage (talk) 03:57, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Tonytopper. The wikipedia article is mainly based on the first NHS source, which is outdated and actual false regarding todays scientific consensus and is not even available on their website anymore. Even though the concept of leaky gut is misused by the New Age community, it is an established concept in science now and we can even measure it (LPS and CD14 in blood). This article should be retired and there should be a new leaky gut one with the science of it and a paragraph at the bottom about esoteric misuse of the concept.LuxMaryn (talk) 05:22, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Hypothetical?

"a hypothetical, medically unrecognized condition"?? Really?

How about Harvard's opinion?

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/leaky-gut-what-is-it-and-what-does-it-mean-for-you-2017092212451 82.77.245.176 (talk) 21:55, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

The blog post author Marcelo Campos is an "integrative medicine" promoter. It's not a reliable source. ScienceFlyer (talk) 22:03, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

That's not "Harvard's opinion," it's a single blog post from a single lecturer. --Golbez (talk) 13:57, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

How about Nature Reviews in Microbiology or frontiers in immunology ? Is that also not reliable? They are all using the term leaky gut, the frontiers in immunology one even uses leaky gut syndrome describing a scientific established condition LuxMaryn (talk) 05:27, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

References

The first article does not mention Leaky Gut Syndrome. Frontiers journals are generally dodgy. Bon courage (talk) 05:35, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes it does so several times in the article. Quoting from the nature review in microbiology:

'For example, infection with SslE-producing bacteria increases IL-8 production, stimulating neutrophil recruitment, barrier destabilization and the potential onset of a leaky gut45.'

'Gut permeability (or ‘leaky gut’) is a common consequence of barrier disruption by enteric pathogens.'

'In turn, inflammation intended to combat the infection can contribute to leaky gut, systemic complications and improper repair' etc.

And Frontiers in Immunology is literally in the Top 8% of immunology journals. So it does not seem justified to call it dodgy.

Again, the term is used over and over in the research community and just by putting a syndrome behind it does not substantially distinguish from a factual condition. It would be fine to talk about misuse of the concept, but like what btw.? Autism? There is no clear evidence, true, but even that connection is seriously explored.

Currently the article makes it sound that leaky gut is esoteric BS, which is far from reality. LuxMaryn (talk) 07:29, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Leaky gut is not leaky gut syndrome in the same way that grapes are not grape nuts. Leaky gut is covered at intestinal permeability. This article is about the health scam. Frontiers has a reputation for publishing junk. Bon courage (talk) 07:41, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Is it really so hard to understand that "leaky gut" IS NOT the esoteric BS "leaky gut SYNDROME"?

Really? --Julius Senegal (talk) 17:56, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

If you look at the Intestinal permeability article it has already a section about leaky gut syndrome which is almost identical with this article. This article is obsolete and outdated. Look at the first reference of this article. It is not available anymore for a reason. Again, it is completely fair to call out esoteric BS, but this is already done in the other article. We don't need duplicate articles with outdated information. LuxMaryn (talk) 21:48, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Yeah that's a summary section in WP:SYNC with this main article, in the normal way. No information is outdated; this stuff is quackery. If you want to propose this article for deletion (it won't succeed), WP:AFD is that way but mind WP:BEFORE. Bon courage (talk) 02:29, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

So, are you now suddenly complaining that under Intestinal permeability the abstract about the quackery "Leaky gut syndrome" is too long? Or are you just complaining that it is called quackery?

In any case this is not a WP:FORUM. If you don't bring new information acc. to reliable sources, stop it. --Julius Senegal (talk) 08:00, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Leaky Gut

This article needs to talk about the topic of intestinal permeability, structures that fail in it, and its contribution to food allergy and autoimmune responses. It is rather preoccupied with bashing alternative medicine , which encompasses many practitioners of variable skill, some of whom are trying to address a real phenomenon, albeit with an unfortunate name and some misunderstandings. 2600:1700:95C0:38A0:BD80:7B1:1DC4:BBFA (talk) 04:54, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

See intestinal permeability. Bon courage (talk) 05:14, 1 February 2024 (UTC)