Template:Did you know nominations/Calitoxin

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by 97198 (talk) 04:09, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

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Calitoxin[edit]

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Large Red Hermit Crab with Calliactis parasitica

Created by Annelinbol (talk). Nominated by Gaff (talk) at 02:33, 13 October 2014 (UTC).

  • I think we need another hook. The only thing that is verifiable is the paralytic action. All the other stuff about "foul fate" and "enemies" are nowhere to be seen. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 19:31, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Thanks for reviewing. There is more references in the article Calliactis parasitica, which I can summarize and carry over and expand more on reference already on the page. I prefer the hook as written, or at least to keep some context as to why cacitoxin is of interest, so it will appear more to the wider audience. "Enemies" is a bit a colorful term, but reasonable to assume that the organisms being stung are not "friends." Also, paralysis by maximal contraction of muscles would be a less than pleasant fate. The symbiotic relationship between Calliactis parasitica and the hermit crab Pagurus bernhardus is interesting, but not able to work into the hook currently. THe organisms being stung may be potential predators of the hermit crab/anemone, or food for the crab. —Gaff ταλκ 19:54, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
Addt'l info added. —Gaff ταλκ 20:21, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
  • To quote from your reply: "Enemies" is a bit a colorful term, but reasonable to assume that the organisms being stung are not "friends." Also, paralysis by maximal contraction of muscles would be a less than pleasant fate. This is a case of original research. If those details are not covered in the sources, especially as I said before, the "fate" part and the "enemies" and any other conclusion thereof, they cannot be part of the hook. Please propose an alternate hook which is directly verifiable from the sources and has no conclusions arrived at which are not part of the sources. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 20:30, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
  • The word "enemy" clearly applies to an animal being stung by another animal. How is that WP:NOR? As far as the word "fate" that is a word meaning "the outcome of a particular situation." The animal is stung to paralysis. That is it's fate. These are simply paraphrases of material provided, which can be arrived at through use of a dictionary and thesaurus. —Gaff ταλκ 20:58, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
  • I did not mean the edit summary as an attack. I'm genuinely sorry that you have taken it as such. I guess that I should have openly expressed my impression that your argument seems obtuse. That is not a personal attack, but a comment on the argument. I was going to ask for an outside review, but am not sure how to do so. So thank you for taking the initiative on that. The merits of the hook as written are that it contains literary assonance: enemies/anemones & foul fates. It would seem dry but equally as correct to say: calitoxin is found it the sting of a sea anemone, which triggers paralytic contractions in muscles of organisms stricken. Why I disagree that it is WP:NOR violation is because everything is referenced. But I am not an expert and look forward to hearing further review. I will recuse myself from further comments, unless specifically requested to offer any up, to avoid further assumptions that I am leveling personal attacks. —Gaff ταλκ 22:50, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
  • I guess that I should have openly expressed my impression that your argument seems obtuse. That is not a personal attack, but a comment on the argument. I disagree. I view this, not only as a personal attack, which it is, but as a strong indication of a rather big misunderstanding of the OR policy. But I agree with you that we should wait for another opinion on this, because we are too far apart to agree on anything of substance. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 23:08, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Well... (sigh) you're right and it was thoughtless/insensitive to me to put in that edit summary. I do apologize. It was a cheap and hasty thing to have written. For the sake of moving this along and to help clarify OR concerns, I've added some materials from a text book about toxins. This includes page references which can hopefully clear this up a bit. It generally addresses how anemones use toxins to attack prey, predators, and other aggressors of the same species. I don't think that it is OR to classify these as "enemies". The book specifically discusses Calitoxin further down, regarding mechanism of action via nerve muscle activity, essentially a secondary source now referencing the primary article. Can agree that classifying paralysis via nerve toxicity is a "foul fate?" or "bad thing?" —Gaff ταλκ 23:39, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
  • First, thank you for the apology, which I accept in good faith. Now for the characterisation of the paralytic reaction as "foul fate" or "bad thing" etc., I find this, apart from being OR, as unnecessary moralising on a purely biological topic which, among other things, is not a scientifically supported description. In addition, in animal biology, moral concepts such as "good" or "bad" do not apply and we should not project human values on that topic. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 23:53, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Maybe keep it simple.

  • Good to go. Length, newness, hook interest and QpQ all ok. Paraphrasing of online sources looks ok. Both hooks are very good. Personally I prefer ALT2 because it has more action. I accept both refs supporting the hooks in good faith, although I don't have access to them online. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 02:07, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Okay. Let's go with ALT2. Thank you for the review and putting up with my ignorance re: what is/isn't OR. —Gaff ταλκ 20:34, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
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