Talk:Skanderbeg/Archive 2
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Cheap Tactics by Serbs and Greeks
Please stop trying to sneak your name in: Maybe Castriotis means something in Greek, maybe he is strong because Leonidas was strong or his mom may have been a Serbian or he was known to like Serbian food, or he once drunk water from a Greek river.... Let it be, it's only extra work for editors, and it's underhanded. No Albanian is trying to steal Arkan or real Greek heroes. --- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keep it Fake (talk • contribs) 06:07, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
- Tribalda or Muzaka? Saying or maybe from Muzaka considered a Serbian" doesnt; make it so. They only thing we know is that Tribalda is Albanian but Vojsava is slavic. So it's in the air. Bulgars claim her, Macadonians, Albanians, Serbs...so we can't point at any one thing. Sources do not agree
Keep it Fake (talk) 02:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
The name should be as it appears in the original sources. After all, Georgius has a meaning, from "geo" (earth) and "ergo" (work) and is a classical name. What is the etymology and meaning of Gjergjg? Wikipedia is not a software that creates customized heroes.Kentavros (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 12:27, 23 January 2009 (UTC).
Questioning the Accuracy of this Page
I was alarmed when I read that Krastriorti lost 2 battles when that is certainly false, and he wasn't actually present at the second Battle of Kosovo 1448. It also explains that he won 13 battles against the Ottoman Empire even though he won 24. Also to the "Neutrality Alert", I was reading this and I felt a bias towards Albanians. Also, George Krastriorti was 100% Albanian, not half serbian half Albanian or part Greek, he was 100% Albanian .Could someone do some more extensive research and update this page? If neccessary I'll do it, Thank you, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.85.123.58 (talk) 18:33, 15 March 2008 (UTC) There is no Serbian or Greek links with Skanderbeg.Why will he fight for Albania and not for the Serbs or Greeks.I am sure that Serbs and Greeks have their heroes.Do no dis-honor them by your stupid acts.Thank you.--Taulant23 (talk) 19:57, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Neutrality alert
I think this article lacks neutrality. To began with, the Albanian-Illyrian connection is disputed. I also am not sure "Freedom fighting is the best section heading possible.Johnpacklambert (talk) 20:34, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
- Please cite the sections of text which need review of neutrality as well as another heading section if you think changes are necessary. Bardhylius (talk) 14:47, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
This article seems quite biased by using glorifying language to describe the subject. It seems written from an Albanian nationalist perspective and should probably be tagged. Just my two cents, and I apologize about not knowing how to sign my posts.
148.85.227.153 (talk) 04:14, 28 November 2007 (UTC) Nick
To all Serbian and Greek POV, why there is NO statue of Scanderbeg in your countries, and why you do NOT allow for such statue to be placed one in Belgrade and one in Thessaloniki?? If Scanderbeg was serb or greek, why it is not a national hero for you??
LETS COME TOGEHTER AND BUILD HIM A STATUE IN THESSALONIKI AND BELGRADE IF YOU THINK HE IS GREEK OR SERB?? SAME AS IN ALBANIA KOSOVA AND MACEDONIA WHEREVER ALBANIANS ARE MAJORITY IS A SCANDERBEG HERO. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.236.122.58 (talk) 16:10, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Calm yourself.Our Greek and Serb fellow editors are merely throwing hints about Kastrioti's origins, since there aren't any reliable historical sources claiming he's anything other than Albanian.Amenifus (talk) 09:13, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
my latest edit
One editor added the signature "INFO (By Andi VL)", other editors removed the last paragraphs of the article - I don't know what to say. I did those edits and I 'll might add some stuff later. talk to +MATIA 09:42, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
the text from 1911
SCANDERBEG, or ISKENDER BEY (1403-1467), known also as the Dragon of Albania, the national hero of the Albanians, was the son of John (Giovanni) Castriota, lord of Kroia and of the Mirdite country in northern Albania, and of a Servian princess named Vaisava. His actual name was George (Giorgio) Castriota, and the name of Iskender Bey (Prince Alexander) was given to him by the Turks in complimentary reference to Alexander the Great. In 1423, when Murad II invaded Epirus, George Castriota, with his three brothers, was handed over as a hostage to the Turks and sent to be trained in the service of the seraglio. His brilliant qualities of mind and body at once gained him the favor of the sultan; he became a Mussulman, was promoted to high military command and, though barely nineteen years of age, to the government of a sanjak. He remained in the Ottoman service for twenty years, dissembling his resentment when, on the death of his father, his principality was annexed and his brothers poisoned. In 1443, however, his opportunity came with Janos Hunyadis victory at Nish. He seized Kroia by stratagem, proclaimed himself a Christian, and gathered the wild Albanian clansmen about him. In the inaccessible fastnesses of Albania he maintained a guerilla warfare against the Turks during nearly twenty-five years, easily routing the armies sent against him, and is said to have slain three thousand Turks with his own hand. In 1461 Murads successor Mahommed II. acknowledged him by a temporary truce as lord of Albania and Epirus. He died in 1467 at Alessio, and his tomb was long the object of a superstitious veneration on the part of the Turks.
Scanderbegs resistance to the Turkish advance was invaluable to the cause of Christianity, but the union which he had maintained in Albania did not survive him. He was succeeded in Kroia by his son, Giovanni Castriota, who in 1474 sold the principality to the Venetians, by whom four years later it was re-sold to the Turks.
See Georges T. Petrovitch, Scander-beg (Georges Castriota); Essai de bibliographie raisonnee; Ouvrages sur Scander-beg crits en langues francaise, anglaise, allemande, latine, italienne, &c. (Paris, 1881); Pisko, Skanderbeg, historische Studie (Vienna, 1895). talk to +MATIA 09:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
The New Student's Reference Work
Scanderbeg. (Iskander Beg or Bey), an Albanian chieftain, was born in Albania, about 1403, of Servian parents. He was called George Castriota by the Christians. He was carried away by the Turks when seven, and brought up a Mohammedan. His bravery and skill made him a favorite with the sultan, who put him in command of a division of his army. In 1443 he deserted the Turkish army with 300 Albanians, and renounced Mohammedanism. In less than a month the whole of Albania was in arms, Scanderbeg was chosen chief, and the Turkish garrisons driven out of the country He was defeated by the Turks but once in all the struggles that followed, destroying 40,000 Turks, with 15,000 Albanians, and defying the Sultan himself with his army of 150,000, until he retired disgusted from the conflict. Pope Pius II tried in vain to league the Christian princes together to help Scanderbeg in his conflicts with the Turks, but succeeded in inducing him to break a truce of peace, made in 1461, and renew the war alone. He again defeated every force that attacked him, even driving back Mohammed II, the conqueror of Constantinople, who conducted two campaigns against him in person. Scanderbeg died at Alessio, of malarial fever, Jan. 17 5468. Consult Ludlow's Captain of the Janizaries.
From wikisource talk to +MATIA 08:18, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
No strong national feelings at the time, but...
I must point one fact AGAIN: John Kastriot (Skenderbegs father) endowed two of his villages to Serb monastery Hilandar in Holy Mt Athos and was later buried there according to his wish in. With his wife Voisava (obviously Slavic) he had 4 sons – two of them have Slavic names - Staniša (Stanissa) and Repoš (Repossius), two Christian calendar names - Constantine (Konstantinus) and George (Georgius). Repoš was also buried in Hilandar: above his grave is an inscription in Serbian and moreover frescoes of St Sava and St Simeon, important Serbian saints.
On the other hand the tower that Kastriots have purchased in Hilandar has remained remembered as “Arbanaški” i.e. Albanian.
These facts together surely point out that both Skenderbegs father, and Skenderbegs family didn’t have such clear national feelings as Albanians of today would like them to. If they were more Albanian they would have had Albanian names and wouldn’t like to be buried in a monastery of a different nation. If their mother was Bulgarian they could have chosen Bulgarian monastery Zoograf, but they didn’t. If they were just plain and simple Serbs they wouldn’t be remembered as Albanians in Hilandar (although this may be geographic rather than national determination). --Dultz 23:52, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
BTW, two villages that John endowed (Radostuše and Trebište) lay a bit to the south of Polog wherefrom Voisava was. In the first Turkish census from 1467 ([1]) the inhabitants of these villages all had Slavic names and most Serbian surnames ending with –ić. If someone should bother we could find the same data for Polog and the results would be the same. That might also give us an idea of wherefrom Voisava originated from. However, since she was of noble birth it could easily be that here family were settled here during the reign of Serbian kings and emperors over Macedonia, as were families of Mrnjavčević or despotes Oliver (to mention just a few), which originated in Herzegovina or Serbia proper. --Dultz 00:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
you guys can argue all you want but I think his words say it more clearly than anyones, and are writen on his helmet, in the Viena Museum:* IN * PE * RA * TO * RE * BT *, which means: Jhezus Nazarenus * Principi Emathie * Regi Albaniae * Terrori Osmanorum * Regi Epirotarum * Benedictat Te (Jesus Nazarene Blesses Thee [Skanderbeg], Prince of Mat, King of Albania, Terror of the Ottomans, King of Epirus). He was an Albanian kristian, and even if I came to believe he wasn't, and I say that losely, he fought with Albanians, for Albanians, in Albania, and if that did not make him Albanian, than he was burried in Albania. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.232.56.183 (talk) 10:36, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
His name was not George was Gjergj that si the albanian name for Giorigio because ate that time albanians were kristian.
And as a suprise, no one will tell two inresting facts. First is that "Serbs" of the vilages were called "Bulgarians" later, and they call themselves Macedonians - children of Alexander today. Second a modern Macedonian historian Petar Popovski has founded new documents where George Castriot is writing (personally): "My people in Albania are Macedonians, descendents of Alexander the great." This was answer to question how did he defeated the Turks at Debar (Dibre) battle when there were 3 times more Turks then Albanians (possibile Macedonians). Also, he was nominated by the pope as King of Macedonians and Epirians.
National feeling could not be strong in 15 century. He was fighting more as protector of christianity and slavonism. But, since albanians are not Slavs, the question that remains is what was he? Serb, Slavophocinc Greek, Macedonian... Albnanian is the last possibility. Aigest 15:54, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
- yeah. it's impossible for him to be an Albanian. He was brave so he must be brave like Serbs who surrendered and then were vassals. When will you guys end this nonsense? If he was a Serb maybe Brankotraitor not have stopped him.
Keep it Fake (talk) 06:14, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure if the talkers above knew exactly what are they talking about. The father of Skanderbeg wasw named Gjon, his grandfather Gjergj and his greatgrandfather Pal. All of these names are albanian catholic names. Even his son was named Gjon like the father of Scanderbeg. Scanderbeg itself was appointed by the pope as "Athlet of Christ" and the commander of papal forces. All his alliances and diplomatic relations were with catholic states and he never asked the alliance of the serbs or the greeks. Does it look like a serb????!!!! You can look to the cronologies of Gjin Muzaka who was one of his fighters, Frang Bardhi or Marin Barletius, prists that have lived in that time. Even his archbishop Pal Engjelli has left the first script in albanian language in 1462. His albanian origin is out of the question. Don't mess the religion of a person with its ethnicity. At any case he was a cunning catholic. .......... George was MIJAK,nothing more-nothing less.You people like academicians talk for something which can be seen with simple eyes.
Was it 1 April,when you wrote all this crap?--Jurgenalbanian (talk) 00:32, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
Just to put Serbian nationalists' minds in peace once and forever. Regarding the claims that Voisava was a Serbian and that names in Polog ended in -ic: Anybody knew that her name was Vojsava Tripalda? Where is the "(h)ic" here?sulmues (talk)--Sulmues 22:31, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
To Albanau
I don't care whether his mother or grandmother was Serbian, Greek or whatever else, but a) you are removing vital parts of the article apart from the word Serbian that you dislike and b) it is from EB 1911, you can see it scanned at wikisource, if you don't believe that the above text is correct. Perhaps you should consider that Scanderbeg sided any Christians he could and that includes Serbians too. talk to +MATIA 14:42, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- We been through this a thousand times. I think using out of date sources to support your arguements is unwise. Your using sources that is about 100 years old. You must admit the serious lack of scientific support of the theory that Scanderbeg's mother Vojsava was of Serbian origin. Everything points to the fact that this is Serbian nationalist propaganda and fiction. This is an encyclopedia article, accept it! Some few Greeks here have even claimed that Scanderbeg's father and uncle was Greek. It seams likely that this have to do with religion and nationalism. Just because he was Christian and the majority of Albanians are today Muslims, doesn't mean Greeks or Serbs have the right to claim him as their own. Cause I know many Greek and Serb seam him as a Christian hero of the Balkans and dislike muslim Albanians for having him as their national hero. With that comes the myth of him being either Greek or Serb. Serbs even go so far as saying that he and his army was Serbs, and complain to Albanians they stole part of Serbian history. Even seen you erasing everything regarding the word Albanian and replacing it with Christian or people, or something els. So enough with all the rubbish. If you didn't cear about the Serbian theory that his mother was Serbian, you would have been able to accept the erasement of the unaccurate part of the article. Thank you so much for understanding. --Albanau 11:27, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
- Most of my sources are at least 100 years old because I prefer public domain sources. If you know of an online english translation of Barleti's work please let me know, I'm very interested in reading it (and I can only speak english and greek). Scanderbeg, when he took Croia, forced the muslims to be baptized, but today this is not the case and of course I agree this is an encyclopedia article.
- I believe you are wrong when you say "Even seen you erasing everything regarding the word Albanian and replacing it with Christian or people, or something else" and I hope you aren't doing that intentionally. I've added, with source the EB1911 again, his title Dragon of Albania and in the new intro I only left his characterization as national Albanian hero (moving Albanian lord, Serbian mother etc lower in the biography section). It doesn't make Scanderbeg less Albanian or less heroic, f his mother was partly Serbian or whatever else. talk to +MATIA 12:22, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
You are completely spellbound by the myth that Scanderbeg's mother was a Serb. The supposed Serbian origin of the Albanian national hero George Castriota Scanderbeg have not been scientifically confirmed. Of course, admitting this fact is easy; overcoming it is far more difficult.
According to a fact recorded in an anonymous Venetian chronicl Skanderbeg's mother was a Bulgarian women named Voisava, from the provinces of Upper and Lower Polog ranged over the territory of the Tetovo plain. Although I don't know how acceptable this is scientifically.
Huic uxor fuit Voisava, Pologi Domini filia, est autem Pologum oppidum in Macedoniae et Bulgarie confinibus.
If you agree that this is an encyclopedia, then you must understand the principles of an encyclopedia, that is not being subjective and adding contradictory information to your comfortable. The problem is obvious, as you probable understand, the informartion is the problem, it is contradictory information which has nothing to do with encyclopedia-articles. Albanau 16:37, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
- Anonymous doesn't help much but we could ref it as a manuscript if we know where (which museum etc) this manuscript is. I thought the "problem" was the "claim" that she wasn't Albanian, now I don't get what difference does it make if she was Albanian, Serbian or Bulgarian. talk to +MATIA 16:44, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
- Your latin quote is mentioned at some forums and at a bulgarian site and that book is (likely) a 112 page monograph, Георги Кастриоти-Скендербег и неговата освободителна борба. В: Г. Кастриоти Скендербег 1468-1968. София, 1970. I'd be interested in the (estimated) date of the Venetian chronicle. talk to +MATIA 16:58, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Is Vojsava the Albanian spelling of her name? talk to +MATIA 17:09, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
- I've just found this: Principe di Epiro, figlio del S. Ivan Castrioth, che signoreggiava quella parte di Albania, la qual si chiama Emathia et Tumenstia, et la matre di Scanderbeg chiamata Voisava, fu figliuola del S. di Pollogo, che è una parte della Macedonia et Bulgaria (Paolo Giovio, Commentario delle cose de Turchi, Venezia 1541). This is in 16th century Italian; it is very similar to the latin chronicle just cited. This view is exposed also by the historian Marinus Barletius, who says "Prince John I of Kastriota married Voisava of the family Tribalda, the daughter of the ruler of Pollogus, a country that lies between Tetovo and Skopje." The same Barletius also stated that the area was inhabited by slavs, but without telling if Bulgarians or Serbs. --Aldux 16:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
- If I remember correctly Marinus Barletius mention that one part of the population was Bulgarian and the other part Albanian. --Albanau 09:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
His father's name was Ivan and his mother was Vojisava. Two clearly Serbian names. His brothers were Staniša, Repoš, Kostadin i Đorđe. All Serbian names. One of them was burried in Hilandar! Once you find me an Albanian named Djordje or Radisa, I'll consider the possibility of him being an Albanian. The greatest irony of history is the fact that Albanian SS division in WWII was named Skenderbeg. They commited numerous crimes against the Serbs under the name of a Serb!
And what do you guys call the attrocities done to the Albanians in Kosovo in 1997 or the Bosnians in the early 90s, and that was no world war, but Kosovo will gain its independence soon and then, you know what they say Albanians don't forget... because thats what happened in WWII.Erli Jan. 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.232.56.183 (talk) 10:50, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
How do you scientifically prove that someone is a Serb? The Serb/Albanian divide is not scientific —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnpacklambert (talk • contribs) 20:32, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
It's a shame for people still trying to steel Albanian culture, Skanderbeg's father's name is Gjon, pure Albanian, as for Serbian he has nothing to do with Serbia, the truth is that Slavic people came in the Balkan and not Albanians, so they stole part of Albanian culture and names.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.249.202 (talk) 14:28, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
I see some bad usage of information as well as false and manipulative information here! Clarifying :
As first understand that most albanians at that time were Christian-Orthodox, and Gjergj Kastrioti himself was Christian-Orthodox (childhood) later on Converted to Catholic, his mother Vojsava is from the regions of Pollog ie. Tetova, tracing her family roots currently is very hard as we have very little or nothing. Yet, considering the fact that those regions were under the infulence of Serbian Orthodox church, slavic-orthodox names appear to be injected at large to albanian people. The real mess starts when various people claim that names show what nationality it belongs to. Now excuse me but i must state a few facts so that people, before posting inappropriate things should consider various circumstances at that time.
Albanians at that time didn't had any kind of independent Orthodox Church organisations, as Greeks and Serbs had. Hence they baptised their children either to a Serbian church or Greek church (mostly at South regions of Albania). This fact alone should explane the presence of many orthodox slavic-greek names. I should note too, that the only known and documented efford to brake orthodox influence in albanian lands is done under the Catholic church patronage, with the request of Pal Engjelli, a catholic priest, that allowed the formula of baptising to be translated into albanian so that people may name children freely in their homes. (Isn't it odd that after late XVI albanians cease to use any Slavic Names? Think ...) . And the most surprising thing is that sometimes various facts are left intentionaly alone, many people above stated that Vojsava is Serbian, just because she carries the name Vojsava, but what about her surname Tribalda, how does it sound ?
To conclude, please don't mess with Scanderbeg's familly unless you have a valuable proof to show!
Regards,--Pinjolli (talk) 18:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pinjolli (talk • contribs) 02:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Italy
I've removed the phrase "Skanderbeg's 25-year resistance against the Ottoman Empire succeeded in helping protect the Italian peninsula from invasion by the Ottoman Turks ."
In 1480, the Sultan invaded Italy and Rhodes, and he was repulsed. talk to +MATIA 09:20, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
- I think this is a point of view erasement that I'm not willing to accept. --Albanau 11:29, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
- I wrote that I removed it here cause I thought it might be controversial. If you have any reliable source that makes that claim tell me and I'll gladly put it back in. Please review my edits at Scanderbeg. I hope that, apart from some different opinions you and I might have, you'll admit I'm trying to expand this article as good as possible. talk to +MATIA 12:14, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
- Migh be controversial? What about removing the part that saids that Scanderbeg's mother was a Serb woman? So far as I know she probable was a Bulgarian woman. What I know Albania was seen as springboard too the Italian peninsula. As said before, I think this is a point of view erasement that I'm unwilling to accept--Albanau 16:43, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
- It sounds logical that Scanderbeg delayed the Ottomans etc. Could you find a good book that says so? talk to +MATIA 16:59, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
- See also Skanderbeg#Effects_on_the_Ottoman_expansion. talk to +MATIA 17:01, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
- Nice try, but a bit point of view, don't you think? --Albanau 14:39, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
- Find a reliable source and we'll expand Skanderbeg#Effects_on_the_Ottoman_expansion. I weren't trying anything - I 've just pointed out that this paragraph covers better the subject than the phrase I removed. talk to +MATIA 07:27, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
- It sounds logical that Scanderbeg delayed the Ottomans etc. Could you find a good book that says so? talk to +MATIA 16:59, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I've studied for 6 years in Italy and in every Italian history book is written that Scanderbeg did indeed protect southern Italy and Rome from Turks for 25 years, and if Turks did not succeed in their planned invasion of Italy after his death it was because of their internal succession problems and because they were weakened from the war against the Albanians. After the death of Scanderbeg they stopped being a serious menace to Christian Europe, this is confirmed by the marine battle of Lepanto where the Spaniards defeated them easily and destroyed their fleet. Even though they besieged Wien about a century later, their military force was not lethal like in the 15th century, their former elite troops (giannizzeri) were undisciplined and their artillery far worse than the European one. After their inglorious attempt to capture Wien they suffered the German and Hungarian military superiority and began to withdraw from Croatia, and Serbia.
Why don't you read the section that speaks about papal relations of Skenderbeg, do you know that his sword is in the vatican museum and that all the albanian villages in southern italy were a concesion to the albanian population for the relations with Skenderbeg.
military university?
Is there a military university name after Scanderbeg in Albania? talk to +MATIA 08:23, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, there is. The address is Akademia Ushtarake Skenderbej. Rruga e Dibres, Tirane Albania
Why is the dispute still going on?
Weren't international sources provided? --HolyRomanEmperor 20:53, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
- The point is that I suspect that all we know regards the mother of Skanderbeg comes from only one source, Marin Barleti's History; this is the only primary source, while the others are all derivated, in my opinion. And Barleti never states if Voisava was Serbian or Bulgarian, only that her family ruled over a land peopled by Slavs, in Western Macedonia. As for the statement you added, I removed it since her mother's name and origin is stated before. --Aldux 21:54, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
- Aldux, do you actually have access on Barleti? (any link perhaps) talk to +MATIA 09:05, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
- Only in a very minor measure: I simply trusted that this alleged quote of Barleti was being reported with fidelity: John Kastrioti was married to Voisave, the daughter of the ruler of Pollogus, a country that lies between Tetovo and Skopje. One part of the population of Pollogus besides Bulgarian was Albanian, the family of Tribalda or “Triballorum princeps”. It was from this marriage that John Kastrioti had five girls and four boys.[2]. From Musachi's Chronicle, the grandfather of Lord Scanderbeg was called Lord Paul Castriota. He ruled over no more than two villages, called Signa (Sina) and Gardi Ipostesi. To this Lord Paul was born Lord John Castriota who became Lord of Mat. And to him was born Lord Scanderbeg. The mother of the said Lord Scanderbeg, i.e. the wife of the said Lord John, was called Lady Voisava Tribalda who was of a noble family.
- [3]--Aldux 17:46, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
- Aldux, do you actually have access on Barleti? (any link perhaps) talk to +MATIA 09:05, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I propose the removal of disputed information when the veracity of such disputed information cannot be verified. The theory of the Serbian origin of Scanderbeg is contradictory, and based on the national romantic interest of the Serbian people. Due to this fact it has not been scientifically confirmed. The woman in question is supposedly a princess of Bulgarian origin. Yet it certainly isn't safe to say much about the origin of Scanderbeg's mother. This theories should be presented as as theories in the article, and not as facts.
User shouldn't expend great energy on searching information from one-hundred-year-old encyklopedias. Old information overwrites new information, and is is generally not useful information. It is unwise to rely on old information all the time because certain information has been controversially disputed ever since. The best way to get reliable information is from updated and objective sources. --Albanau 09:51, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
The only source that we can find for his mother being Bulgarian is a monograph compiled by a Bulgarian author who (we suppose) cites a Latin manuscript. A similar Latin manuscript that cites the opposite can also be found (I've seen some references from an American author), but I haven't been able to verify none of these two. What if his mother was both Serbian and Bulgarian? talk to +MATIA 09:05, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
primary sources on Scanderbeg
And by the way the primary sources on Scanderbeg are about 500 years old (and no, they can't be easily overwritten):
- Marinus Barleti
- Chalcondyles
- Spondanus or Spandounes.
- Phranza
- and perhaps someone else who I forgot.
He is also mentioned in various encyclopedias/lexicons of the 16th (1560 for example) and 17th century. talk to +MATIA 09:05, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
- An important primary source is that of Dimmitrius Franciscus's (however it's Latinized; Dhimitër Franko in Albanian) biography. It was published in 1480, and is valuable since Franko was Skanderbeg's personal biographer and witnessed many of the events that unfolded. I have a copy of his book in Albanian, but have yet to read it. I don't think it would be available in English, or any other major European language (excepting Italian) since it was found in 1990, long after the Skanderbeg craze died out.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 17:14, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
It is a blessing that original sources cannot be overwritten. The article is cluttered with Albanian pseudo-references.Kentavros (talk)
Juan Castriota
There is also a Spanish nobleman by the name of Juan Alandro Castriota who contributed a great deal towards Albania's struggle for independence [citation needed].
I've found this (quote:Don Juan Aladro Castriota de Perez y Velasco (Spanish nobleman). He was one of several European noblemen of alleged descendancy from Gjergj Kastriota, called Scanderbeg, who tried to gain influence on the National Movement, but with very limited success. One of his preferred propaganda items were postcards with his portrait in a fancy uniform and the title "Prince of Albania". When Albania proclaimed her independence he was out of the game.) but I'd like more info about it. I remember of another "noble" who was preparing a revolt against the Ottomans, but instead he picked whatever funds he could and disappeared. However I think that was 50 years before the Albanian Independence. talk to +MATIA 07:40, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Blatantly Byzantine
Castriotis clearly saw himself as a rightfull heir to the Roman (Byzantine) empire. This is clearly evidenced by his seal. He had a sound Greek education, and he clearly used Greek, not Albanian, as the language of administration. This is proven, again, by his seal, as well as his letters. He considered his armies to be the last relic of the Roman Empire. Of course, his warriors were Albanians. He was the ruler of Albanian people, in Albanian territory. BUT His flag is in fact a Byzantine war standard. He himself in his letters, written in Greek, states that his armies are a relic of the Roman empire. We cannot know his nationality in terms of genealogy. He probably was Albanian, Serb AND Greek, and who knows what else. Intermarriage was very common in the Empire. We have to mention, however, that Kastriotis is a Greco-Latin name. That doesnt mean he was Greek. But, he was a Byzantine noble, he had a Greek education, some knowledge of Ancient Greek history (he refers to Pyrrhus in his letters), and clearly he was a participant of late Byzantine culture, which had verys strong ties to Hellenism. He was a ruler of Albanians, but that doesnt mean he was Albanian himself. Most imperial families of Byzantium were descended from the East, eg Cappadocia or Armenia, but they ruled over all of the empire. Nationality was of little consequence in Byzantium. Nobility that ruled in Albania did not have to be Albanian, much like the Duke of Edinborough isnt Scottish. But what is clear is that Castriotis was Byzantine. Not Greek, not Albanian, not Serb, but probably the last Byzantine leader to fight the Turks. He had a Greek education, and an Orthodox Byzantine culture. This doesnt mean that he wasnt the leader of Albanians, nor is it an attempt ot steal anything. It is just fact. In Skenderbeg's time, there was no such thing as Greek, Albanian or anything else. They were Romans and Orthodox. Skenderbeg himself called himself a Roman and an Epirot, as well as an Albanian. And he probably was all these things. I really feel there should be some mention of all this in the article. Druworos 18:50, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
First of all Pyrrhus was not Greek, nor was Epirus. They were both illyrian, and the Greek scholar Herodotus says this too in his chronicles. The name Epirus is antient Greek, that's true, and it means "continent". In fact Greeks used to call Epirus this way because they lived in Peloponnesyum , which is a peninsulaattached to the Balkans. The Illyrian name for Epirus is "Southern Illyria" and the language spoken there was not Greek. Greek was used only for administrative purposes, but the people used to speak Illyrian. (the case of Epirus is quite similar to Macedonia, which is pretended to be a Greek province because Alexander fought against Persians to defend the Greek polis, like Pyrrus did in southern Italy to defend Tarentum and Syracusae). Then I'd like to add that the Albanian seal, the one that Scanderbeg used, is ultimately Illyrian, neither Roman nor Greek. The eagle has always been an Illyrian sacred animal, and symbol of force and bravery. In fact his soldiers used to call Pyrrus "eagle" and the eagle as it appears today on the Albanian flag was designed by the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great, who is known to be of Illyrian origines, like other Roman Emperors too (Diocletianus, Aurelianus, Valerianus etc). Then Scanderbeg did not have a Byzantine or Greek background. He could speak 6 foreign languages (Greek, Serbian, Latin,Italian,Bulgarian,Turkish) but this doesn't mean that he was related by blood or anything else to any of these countries. And I'd like to conclude that Scanderbeg was not an Orthodox, but a Roman Catholic. He met the Pope a few times, he recieved the order of "High Defender of the Christianity" and was going to be crowned King of Albania and Epirus by the pope, if it weren't for an incident that forbade him to go to Rome. He is also called in historical chronicles "The king without a crown".
You are wrong,its true that he used greek letters becouse at time there was not an albanian alphabet and the albanian language was written with greek letters.
- His seal is in Greek, as in Greek language, not just Greek alphabet. Druworos (talk) 16:14, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
- Disagree. Pyrrhus is a Greek name, the Molossians (who occupied Epirus) spoke Greek, worshipped the Greek gods, and although they were regarded as being "mountain-folk" and on the fringes of the Ancient Greek world, Epirus has had close cultural ties with Greece. Despite the fact that there rarely is a clear line between different cultures, you definitely over-exaggerate the Illyrian ties with Epirus and you apply this in a linear way to the historical developments of that region over the centuries. --Xenophonos 07:35, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
80.78.64.202 08:48, 16 November 2007 (UTC) Pyrrhus is not a greek name, it is the old form of the albanian name burrë. there are two rules of albanian fonetics y becomes u like Dyrrachium-Durrës and p becomes b like parth-bardh. Please stop talking for things you don't know.
- Yes, either both the King of Epirus and Neoptolemus, Achilles' son, had Albanian names or 'pyrrhos' is the Greek word for 'red-haired' (from 'pyr'= fire, see LSJ for details). Should you decide to stick with the first one, don't let minor details like the hair in http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f6/Pyrrhus.jpg/200px-Pyrrhus.jpg bother you. As regards the argument on the phonetic rules applying to *foreign* names which *enter* the Albanian language, well, what exactly is your point again? 212.107.31.35 (talk) 10:34, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
80.78.64.202 (talk) 15:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC) I don't remember any of Pyrrhus biographers (Plutarchus for example) to mention his red hairs. Read hair was not a characteristic of Balkan populations, and if he had them...sure somebody would tell that (yes ....every word in the world has a greek root.....I have seen that film:))) By the way this name was mentioned long before the greeks entered in history. Pyrrhus was the name of Achile's son and the battle of Troy happened in XIII B.C. As for the population of Epir you can read the pasages of Herodothus or Strabonis or whatever ancient historian about their belonging. The were all referred like barbarians. Anyway this was not the point, I didn't want to enter in discussions about smth else that has nothing to do with Skanderbeg, but simply I don't like something not true to became referred as true. If you ever read the letters that Skanderbeg has directed to Taranto's prince you will see that he was refering to his population as Epirots. So in the 15 century albanians were still regarding themselves as Epirots and sometimes this term has been used by others to refer them. That's why I entered in this discussion about names. Best Regards.
- Actually, Pyrrhus was a nickname (since the name of Achilles' son was 'Neoptolemus' (=new warrior) and 'pyrrhós' is indeed the Greek word for 'red-haired', as 'George' is the Greek-word for 'agriculture man' and 'kastriotis'/'kastritis' is the Greek-word for 'castle dweller'. I have not made any claims regarding any historical person's bloodline (or ethnic origin, if you like) and, in truth, I could not care less. However, given the fundamental and ubiquitous influence of the Greek language and culture in the western world (and beyond), it is wise to be extra careful when disputing the origin of names. 212.107.31.35 (talk) 10:48, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
- It would take an idiot to claim Skanderbeg was Greek, in an ethnic sense. The man was Byzantine. He had a Greco-Latin surname (Castrioti, from Latin castrum, coupled with the Byzantine suffix -otis into Castriotis, and possibly simplified into Castrioti in Albanian). This does not mean he was Greek. A lot of Byzantines had Greek or Latin names, but were Armenian, Albanian, Georgian, Slavic, Arab, Egyptian or whatever else. However, he obviously had had Byzantine education, and a Byzantine cultural background. And please, do not even try to claim that Epirus was Illyrian. Epirotes, while not exactly Greek, were not exactly Illyrian either. This is why all ancient historiographers mention Epirus and Illyria SEPARATELY. Epirotes were some form of Proto-Greek or Proto-Illyrian (or perhaps a mixture thereof) tribe (or tribes) that were Hellenized by the first centuries AD at the latest. As for Pyrrhos, I honestly don't know if it's Greek, Illyrian, or anything else. Red hair, however, was not at all out of place in the Balkans of antiquity. Herodotus explicitly mentions red hair was predominant among Thracians, for instance. Druworos (talk) 16:14, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
- As for his meetings with the Pope, the antipenultimate Eastern Roman emperor, John VIII Palaiologos, also met with the Pope. He even signed a Union between the two churches. This doesnt mean he was a Catholic though. He too was Orthodox. As was Vlad Dracula, who was nonetheless referred to as a great champion of Christendom, despite his being Orthodox. Myself, I'm an atheist, so I have no religious agenda here. But Albanians had been under Byzantine domination and/or influence for more than 1.000 years. Obviously, even if Skanderbeg was 100% pure-bred Albanian, he is much more likely to have been originally Orthodox, not Catholic. His alliance with the Pope was obviously one of political convenience and necessity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Druworos (talk • contribs) 16:20, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
His bishops were appointed by the pope and they had no relations whatsoever with Constantinople. He was the Athletae Christi and the honorary commander of Papal forces. Also Dukagjin family (close to his territories and his ally later) was threatened with excommunication in 1463 by Pope PiousII. Also you have to remember Stefan Dushan and the articles in his code about catholic heresy. Moreover you have to remember that this part of Albania has remained catholic until these days. He was catholic end of story. Aigest 09:20, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Just wanted to add this to external links
Can someone more experienced please add this link to external links? Thanks.
(documentary preview)
http://www.illyriaentertainment.com/scanderbeg.htm
(full 1953 movie)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6962253720392525785&q=skenderbeu&pl=true
You may delete this entry after the addition to the external link section.
- I've added the first one (trailer) but I'm not sure if the second video's source is legally ok (perhaps I misunderstood something, but I'm not gonna risk it right now). talk to +MATIA 11:59, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Matia, I think the copyright only protects a work for 30 years, that movie is from 1953. I am not aware of any other problem, but just to be on the safe side, I am leaving this up to more experienced pplz here.
Voisava?
Uhh, why does it left out his Serbian mother again? --HolyRomanEmperor 20:19, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
His mother was albanian,END OF THE STORY!--Jurgenalbanian (talk) 21:13, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
Blatantly Byzantine has a point
Giorgos Kastriotis was probably more Greek in background than anything else. He probably had Serbian in him as well. But some of these administrators like to continue calling him just Albanian. Well it is a fact he spoke fluent Greek, was Greek Orthodox and used the provisional double headed eagle for his principality. It was also a well known fact that any legitimate prince had to have some form of Greek in him or her to rule (or at least married to a Greek noble). And someone posted a quote before- Principe di Epiro- I believe (tell me if I am wrong- but I will look it up as well to make sure) means the Prince of Epirus. And Epirus has been a Greek province , practically forever! WAY BEFORE THE TOSCS AND GHEGS APPEARED!
- "more Greek in background than anything else. He probably had Serbian in him as well." I think he had some mililitres of Mongolian blood, too. Someone told me. ilir_pz 18:08, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
- Modern conceptions of Ethnicity and Nationalism didn't exist back then, the way they do today. --Xenophonos 07:36, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Wrong way round!!!
The seal of Skanderbeg, is the wrong way round - hence the letters cannot be read properly.
It needs to be flipped round. Politis 11:11, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- If this is a seal, then isn't it actually supposed to be the wrong way round, so that the imprint will come out correctly? It works like a rubber stamp, you know. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:33, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Very good point indeed! I will hold it up against the mirror again and try to transcribe the 'paper' version. Politis 12:38, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- Looks like: "ΑΛΕΧΑΝΔΡΟΣ· ΕΛΕΩ· Θ[ΕΟ]Υ· Ο ΑΥΤ[ΟΚΡΑΤΩΡ?]· ΡΩΜ[ΑΙΩΝ?]· ΟΜΕΓ[ΑΣ?]· ΑΥΘ[ΕΝΤΗΣ?]· ΤΟΥΡ[ΚΙΑΣ?]· ΑΛΒ[ΑΝΙΑΣ?]· ΣΕΡΒΙ[ΑΣ]· ΒΟΥΛΓΑΡΙ[ΑΣ]· ΒΑΣΙΛΕΥΣ" Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- I agree withi the above trascription. Suggested translation:
- "ALEXANDER• [by the] GRACE [of] G[od] EMP[EROR of the?] • ROM[AIC NATION(Greeks / Greek Orthodox?) • THE SUPR[EME?] • MAS[TER] • KING [of?] TUR[KEY?] • ALB[ANIA?]• SERBI[A] • BULGARI[A] • "
The question, to my mind, is whether, ΟΜΕΓ· ΑΥΘ· is used as an exhaltation - and therefor can stand on its own, or, is it used as a descriptive title for what follows (of the Greek nation). Or, does 'Ο ΑΥΤ' stand as an exhaltative? In this case, it would affect what follows the following way: ALEXANDER is the SUPREME MASTER of the ROMAIC NATION, and KING of all the other lands.
As for Romaic indicating Greek, I would go along with that because that was its common meaning, even taking the earliest time the seal was reportedly created. I would also go along with the interpretation of Greek Orthodox; though this would include Greeks and Greek Orthodox Albanians and certainly, he seems to have been much admired by the Greeks as defender of the faith (ps. does anyone have an aspirin:)). Politis 15:11, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- Hi Politis. I'm not certain I can agree with reading "romaios" as Greek in this context; to me it seems pretty obvious that he is imitating the official title of the Roman and Byzantine emperors, and in such an official document it seems to me that the emphasis is on "Roman" mor than "Greek", as a sign of the continuity of the universal imperial authority.--Aldux 15:52, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- Interesting discussion. As for the relation between the three titles, I read:
- Emperor (αυτοκράτωρ) of the Greeks/Romaioi (Ρωμ.)
- Master (αυθέντης) of the Albanians and Turks
- King (βασιλεύς) of Serbia and Bulgaria.
- Note the linguistic difference: "Σερβι..." and "Βυλγαρι..." each have their "ι" spelled out, to make clear it's the country name, not just the ethnonym "Serbs" and "Bulgars", whereas "Τουρ..." and "Αλβ..." do not. Serbia and Bulgaria being the two nations that historically had been kingdoms. So he's claiming continuity to the three Christian orthodox states in terms of the historic titles of king/emperor, plus additional leadership of the Turks and Albanians as state-less ethnic groups? Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:38, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Future on the 'i'. And Aldux, yes, you are right, the word originates in 'Roman'. It gradually came to identify the Greeks; that is why the Turks still refer to the Greeks as 'Rum'. Until recently, spoken or demotic Greek was also referred to as 'Romaica' (it certainly did not mean, Latin). The clear linguistic break away from any conotations with 'Rome' emerged with the schism between Roman Catholic west and Orthodox east; well before the time of Skanderbeg. But I think there is also a case for considering its usage in the seal as referring to both the Greek and Albanian Greek Orthodox peoples; therefor the term would cover a specific religious dominion, including ecclesiastic Greek as the liturgical and theological language. Politis 16:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- Politis, I think you added this: "his name is also revered as a defender of the Orthodox faith against the Ottomans". This is quite problematic as it's certain that he was a Roman catholic, as proved among other things by his helmet, where was written in Latin, and not in Greek, "Jesus of Nazareth blesses Skanderbeg prince of Mat King of Albania terror of Ottomans king of Epirus" (I must search the original Latin). Many of his key advisors were catholic churchmen, and the Pope repeatedly extolled him, and the Popes hostility for schismatics is well known. His catholicity is given as certain by all books I know: see E. A. Jacques' Albanians.--Aldux 18:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
This seal has been created in 16th century probably from one of his descendants to claim some rights in a future uprising. His actual seal can be seen at the correspondence he had with Naple, Venetians, Ragusa and Papal State. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aigest (talk • contribs) 09:04, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Interpretations of the Seal (continued from above)
- I agree with your explanation Aldux. There is also no serious doubt, I think, that he was Albanian, but I am not sure how many contemporary sources refer to him as 'Albanian' (perhaps our Albanian friends can help out, but even if not, of course he was Albanian).
- As for the seal, I find it curious. Where and when was it made, was it ever used (presumably on wax)? If it was made in Catholic lands, then, according to an academic acquaintance, one can speculate that the text in Latin, following the style of the time, could be:
- "ALEXANDER, DEI GRATIA, IMPERATOR GRAECORUM, MAGNUS DOMINUS TURCORUM, REX ALBANIAE, SERBIAE, BULGARIAEQUE". The same person offers that, instead of reading "O MEGAS AUTHENTES TOURKON...", it could be "O MEGAS AUTHENTES TOURKOS..." which is similar to the title 'MAGNUS TURCUS' and by which title the Ottoman Sultan was known in Europe. So Scanderbeg would be claiming to rule over the Turks... The acquaintance also suggests that the title 'King of Serbia and Albania' was the title of the Serbian kings. So Scanderbeg had a broad vision. But unless we know more about the provenance and use of the seal, it might be problematic to give a more specific interpretation of the text. Politis 13:28, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Mr. Gibbon comments about Skanderbeg
His reputation reaches across many countries for his stand against the Ottomans. According to Gibbon, "John Huniades and Scanderbeg... are both entitled to our notice, since their occupation of the Ottoman arms delayed the ruin of the Greek empire."
What's the meaning behind the sentence and why is the sentence placed on the section Biography instead of section Skanderbeg in literature, an explanation would be appropriate. Well, it is obvious and we already know that he became famous even outside Albania. The editor should give the entire text of Gibbon's comments about Skanderbeg to investigate what Mr. Gibbon means, and if not the entire text above should be delated because of obvious reasons. --Albanau 17:13, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
- I must admit it is a bit strange; Skanderbeg didn't delay Muhammed II, as when he rised to power in 1451 decided to take the city, he took it only 2 years after becoming sultan. Not a great delay, in my view.--Aldux 17:22, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
- Mehmed II ruled the Ottoman Empire from Edirne like all his predecessors since 1365. Even in the so-called Ottoman Interregnum contender Sultan Suleyman ruled from Edirne. How a monarch of Albania would prevent the Ottoman Army to cover the distance from Edirne to Constantinople is beyond me. User:Dimadick
Albanau; I was responsible for including the Gibbon text. It exemplifies the fame of Skanderbeg - irrespective of historical distortions pointed out by Dimadick. In fact, the quote shows how his fame makes him suseptible to be attributed greater deeds than history records. But what do you mean by obvious reasons; I am afraid that I cannot deduce the obvious reasons through your text and I think it would be helpful to find out. Thanks. Politis 10:00, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Epirote Greek family
Note to the contributor who edited that Scanderbeg is Greek and Illyrian. This reads like an interpretation and no editor can accept just like that. So if you have reliable historical evidence, please quote it. BUT! Even if you do quote references that he was 'Greek', the general consensus amongst historians is that he was a Christian 'Albanian' (and I go along with his 'Albanianess', even though in those days 'ethnicity' was not a key motive). Therefore, no editor can delete any reference to the fact that he was 'Albanian'. Politis 09:01, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree with that. Here are some sources on his being Albanian from Britannica. Also he was from an old family of albanian feudal lords. I don't understand some people. If he was not a Greek what is the point of saying he was? I certainly don't want to be identified with varvaroi (non-Greeks).
"in Serbia, Skanderbeg abandoned the Turkish service and joined his Albanian countrymen against the forces of Islam. He embraced Christianity, reclaimed his family possessions, and in 1444 organized a league of Albanian princes, over which he was appointed commander in chief. "
"The new administrative system of the themes, or military provinces created by the Byzantine Empire, contributed to the eventual rise of feudalism in Albania, as peasant soldiers who served military lords became serfs on their landed estates. Among the leading families of the Albanian feudal nobility were the Thopias, Balshas, Shpatas, Muzakas, Aranitis, Dukagjinis, and Kastriotis. The first three of these rose to become rulers of principalities that were practically independent of Byzantium."
Xenovatis (talk) 01:19, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Arm wrestling
In Romania arm wrestling is commonly called "skanderbeg" and, until now, I never knew who is referenced by that name. Anyway, the name seems to go well with the stories about his legendary strength mentioned in the article. Does anyone know of this usage anywhere else? AdamSmithee 10:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Very interesting,well its true that Skanderbeg tested the power of his soldiers with "arm wrestling" and many many legends of this hero are based on his "arm wrestlings".I didnt knew that in romanian "arm wrestling was called like that.Well its true that Albanian and Romanian have many similar words.--Jurgenalbanian (talk) 21:16, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
WP:MILHIST Assessment
Though this article could use some expansion in a few sections (Weapons and the following section), overall it is far better than just a Good Start. Long, detailed, pictures, and lots of in-line citations. Good work! LordAmeth 05:15, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Title?
Surely they didn't call somebody a "chief army economist" in the 1400's. So what exactly did Vladan Giurica do? Clarityfiend 03:01, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Complete documentation of Scanderbeg: http://p083.ezboard.com/fbalkansfrm143.showMessage?topicID=396.topic
Clarification of the debate over Scanderbeg's ethnicity: http://p083.ezboard.com/fbalkansfrm107.showMessage?topicID=253.topic
A QUESTION OF SKANDERBEGS RELIGION
I have always been taught tha Skanderbeg was born Catholic, but recently some indaviduel have been saying Skanderbeg was Orthodox,which is untrue. He was from Krujë in North Albania with large and fearsome Catholic Albanians. this is a fact so um adding this very important informaton to the article Xalvas
- I don't know much about the Orthodox stuff but I found "For a quarter of a century Skanderbeg and Albania prevented Turks from invading Western Europe" sentence a bit romantic and subjective. Ottoman Empire never conquered Western Europe, even after İskender's death and reigns of successful leaders like Suleiman the Magnificent. Also, Ottomans could skip Albania and attack Europe from many other lands because Albania doesn't contain the only way to Western Europe. I didn't want to open a new headline for such a little comment so I put it here. To be in accordance with the headline, we can say that İskender Bey betrayed his Sultan who gave him power and wealth and he was once a Muslim. I think he was a man like Herman the German who was actually Arminius, the loyal servant of the Roman Empire that turned into a local hero after his betrayal. A man regarded as a national hero by Germany but actually gained everything he had from the enemy, Augustus. Deliogul 18:31, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Skanderbeg was born catholic,but religion wasnt much important to him,since he united all the princes of Albania,no matter of religion.We united them all,orthodxes,catholics and muslims.And i can say the same for his father Gjon Kastrioti,which changed his religion many times.He was born a catholic,then he converted to an orthodox then he converted to a muslim,and at the end,he became again a catholic.--Jurgenalbanian (talk) 21:11, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
was skanderbeg GHEG OR TOSK
This article needs to be specific in regarding Skanderbegs origins.Some people think he was tosk which is impossible(he was a catholic Gheg from Krujë, durr!!) this special information is quite important so is being added immidiatly by me Xalvas
For the love of God
Enough of this BS about him being Greek or Serb. Why is it that not a single contemporary of Skanderbeg ever mentions that he was of mixed ancestry if it's such a well known fact? Please spare me this BS about his name being Greek; it could easily just be from a place name (there is a place near Dibra that is called Kastriot to this day). And about his Serb mother that miraculously is never specifically called a Serb by anyone, except by Serbs. Hell, she's mentioned time and time again in chronicles, biographies, etc., yet for some reason they never call her a Serb. And why not, I mean obviously that would be a defining characteristic if she was? And then there the seal which is immediately trumpeted as evidences of his "Greekness", despite being wildly inaccurate (king of Turks? Bulgars, Serbs, Greeks? How exactly is he there king when he never ruled over anyone but Albanians? Might as well say king of Mayas, or Chinese, or Zulus). It isn't even funny how old this is...
- I think its quite appalling despite calls to take it to discussion not one person bar the editor above has answered. We do not need ten translations for this mans name. Another case of an article degenerating through organised reverting. --A.Garnet 12:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Again, even though it has been discussed ad nauseam, the Greek and Serb names are very relevant. His mother Voisava was likely Serbian as evidenced by the sources here and Greek was the language of the Byzantine Empire and his seal is written in Greek language where he claims to be king of the Greeks, Turks, Albanians, Serbs and Bulgarians. The Bulgarian name should also be added. Any nationalist censorship will be reverted and reported.--Domitius 13:08, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
In case we lose them:
- Albanian: Gjergj Kastrioti - Skënderbeu
- Bulgarian: Георги Кастриоти - Скендербег
- Greek: Γεώργιος Καστριώτης - Σκεντέρμπεης
- Serbian: Ђурађ Кастриотић - Скендербег
- Turkish: Györgi Kastrioti - İskender Bey
--Domitius 13:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Also I sense that adding Finnish by Dimror [5] was a WP:POINT violation.--Domitius 13:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
- I've made no comment regarding what translations should be here. Only that a)ten is too much, b)I don't like organised reverting and c)none of the reverters have discussed their edits. As for your stalking comment, i'll ignore that. --A.Garnet 13:56, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
"Scanderbeg ... the national hero of the Albanians, was the son of John (Giovanni) Castriota, lord of Kroia and of the Mirdite country in northern Albania, and of a Serbian princess named Voisava."
I don't think old renown British historians were "Serbs and Serbs alone".
It's sad that everyone's arguing about Scanderbey, when Tito and Enver celebrated him together as a part of common history and brought Albania and Yugoslavia together under Skanderbeg... I wonder what would happen if the two new this... I'm sure they're turning in their graves. :)
P.S. Why all the names in the intro? --PaxEquilibrium 14:51, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks to Dimror, Skanderberg now is not celebrated only from Enver, and Tito, but also from the Finns, the Croatians, the Italians etc. And it seems that the only language he was not speaking was swahili. Seriously now: if Dimror does not care about the quality of his article, and wants to make fun of it, this is not my problem. But it is my problem when a man with Christian-Greek-Orthodox name, related with a Byzantine aristocratic family (carrying the historical Comneni name), using the symbols of the Byzantine empire, is presented as having nothing to do with the Greek heritage. Dimror, nobody tries to steal your national hero! But, try to accept some simple historical facts. The Greek name is relevant and should stay. Now, if Dimror wants to add dozens of other translations, he is doing nothing else than to downgrade an article, in which he seems sincerely interesting.--Yannismarou 13:16, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I think, some people are funny. Especially the ones that come up with wp rules ready at hand and an army of vandals, but seem to ignore that idiotic fundamental one of no original research. And that's funny, bc. the only thing I can think of their actions is cheap propaganda. But hey, even if Skanderbeg wrote in Japanese he's name would still be written in Greek and Serbian, here, maybe add some Bulgarian, why not. Although Pollog valley (where his mother is said to come from) was within Albanian principates, there's still a chance that his mother could've been a Roma gypsy, or an Aromanian. So who am I to refuse the joy to Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs, Vlachs, Roma, even Finns, because there could've been a Finn traveler there that left some mark f his own, etc. So feel free to add some more peoples and languages, as you see fit. And last but not least you just can't deny the Italians the joy of celebrating him, because if you'd come down from the Byzantine clouds, you'd know that everything left written from Skanderbeg's state apparatus is written in Latin, so hey, apart from those unhistorical biased interpretations, it seems that he must've been Italian 100%, just missed the territory somewhere along the way. Even his best friends were Italian, starting from popes and ending with kings. But you know, what does that matter! Just write his name there in Greek and Serbian, and mind your own business, right? That one of analyzing his name and calling him Greek national, is also one of the best I've heard. Maybe half the Greeks come from Israel, and half the Bosnians from Saudi Arabia.Dimror 10:11, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- In fact while everything remotely relating Skanderbeg to Greek or Serbian language is just wishful thinking and biased interpretation fueled by some weird balkanoid impulse, there are facts that Skanderbeg was clearly an Italian. All his correspondence was in Latin and Italian, his close friends were royal Italian families, he even fought in Italy (because his Italian blood could not forget the real fatherland), and in the end after his death, all of his family moved and was sheltered in Italy. Just like a return home. So I suggest removing even the Albanian name along with all others and leaving only the Italian one, and rightfully so. Everything relating to Skanderbeg relates to Italy, that's the truth.--Vlug 10:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- I see nothing wrong with including the languages of the peoples he claimed to be king of, and Italian.--Domitius 10:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- Before I forget, Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition tells us that Skanderbeg the "was the son of John (Giovanni) Castriota, lord of Kroia and of the Mirdite country of northern Albania, and of a Servian princess named Vaisava". Damn those British propagandists, I wonder how much they are paid to indulge in such wishful thinking!--Domitius 10:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- The three languages spoken by this very intelligent dude. --PaxEquilibrium 11:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- EB 11th Ed. has some good writing but also some great gaffes. Vojsava is a Balshaj, a Mirditë clan who ruled at the time the region that included Pollog. Barleti mentions that she was a princess of the region, and that region was the Balshaj principate, at the time. A later writer, Gavril Dara (i Riu) does also mention in his autobiography that "Vojsava, his (Skanderbeg's) mother, is the daughter of Prenk of Mirdita - (Ndër këta, të parët, prindërit e mi, që emërohen gjer më sot Mërkuri e Njani i Dharenjëve, gjërinj të Kastriotit nga ana e Vojsavës, së jëmës së tij, së biljes së Prenkut të Mirditëve)" and also that "Vojsava, his (Skanderbeg's) mother, is the daughter of the prince of the Mirdites - (Midis tyre ndër më të parët ishin gjyshërit e mi, që përmenden gjer më sot Mërkuri e Njani i Dharenjëve, gjërinj të Kastriotit nga ana e Vojsavës, së jëmës së tij, që ishte e bija e princit të Mirditasve)" - in the "Kënga e sprapsme e Balës", alb.pub.1961, pg.20. (His name being Gavril must show that he's from Israel, no :p) Another source confirming her being Albanian is the book mentioned in the article page, by Harry Hodgkinson, "Scanderbeg: From Ottoman Captive to Albanian Hero" where he assigns her to the Muzaka clan because of considering that the Muzakas were the rulers of the territories, but the specific region has always been Balshaj's not Muzaka's. Even then no one is disputing her being Albanian, because that is a default for every knowledgeable person dealing with the history of the region. While the EB 11th article is from someone known to be biased in telling Scanderbeg's history, whose name is G. Petrovitch and that is the only time in history and the only person in history to assert that Vojsava was Serbian, (just like only Serbian propaganda does from the 1910s) and he makes no use of contemporary sources about Skanderbeg, at least in showing that Vojsava is supposed to be Serbian, bc. there is no contemporary source to claim that. If it were for mere opinions, I can give you a wholeload of those. On the contrary, sources claim that she is Albanian, she has been born and raised within an Albanian principate and if anyone has some grasp of the Northern Albanians' clan traditions about marriage he would surely know that you couldn't marry a foreigner especially when you dealt with the heads of the clans. Notable is also that no other writer or scholar has taken Petrovitch's position ever. If she was Serbian how come no one cared to mention it? I think historians must've been a little pissed at Serbs, or sth. or had some great love for Albanians. But even if someone would have some suspicion about her origins, one would naturally go and think about Bulgaria, ...but Serbia?! That's just what the guy above called wishful thinking.
- The seal, on the other hand, hasn't been accepted by scholars because it is suspected as a much later forgery. And there have been quite some of the latter. One of them is the inscription on the helmet, which has also been added at a later time. So unless someone brings direct proofs, just like one would when talking normally, and not disseminating propaganda, it's pretty much useless to just recycle age old pseudo-theories to prevent article writing. Dimror 14:07, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- Dimror, EB11 is one of the more prestigious sources on Scanderbeg's Serbian origin. If you want more, there are numerous: E. J. Brill's First Encyclopaedia of Islam tells us that his real name was George Kastriota, of the family of the Kastriotas of Serbian origin, who had once ruled Epirus and Southern Albania, whereas Walter Laqueur's Guerrilla Warfare: A Historical and Critical Study affirms hat the most successful of the opponents to Turkish rule was George Catstriota-Skanderbeg. A Serbian by birth, he had served with distinction with the Turkish army for years and was governor of a sanjak. This demonstrates relevance, sufficient relevance to include the Serbian name rather than to pass judgement on his ethnicity. Regarding the seal, if it's a forgery, and you can prove it, then it should be removed from the article.--Domitius 14:30, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- I can give you 300 sources showing that he is Albanian, do you really like to see them, and then do the math yourself? Afterwards we can talk about prestigiousness of sources. Like eg. all other EB after 11 that surely are more prestigious in calling him Albanian and not a Serbian anymore, like some english puclications did from 1885 till 1911, at a time when they would consider just Serbian opinions. It's weird how come these prestigious sources don't mention those gaffes anymore, in later editions... But given that you like to practice selective reading, what's the point Dimror 14:48, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- Well it's their usual sport. Imagine if everyone would go round the wiki and set double and triple and tetraple names for whoever he got some vague suspicions on his ancestry, or just because of peculiar cultural interpretations. Let's write Napoleon's name in some 10 languages now, because he has a lot of stuff written in more than 40 languages, so we're free to choose. And sth you all missed is that even the general Triballi clan of whom Vojsava was supposed to belong to, as Barleti says, were just an Illyrian tribe, so she becomes Albanian again. Boh, damn, but that's boring, we wouldn't like her Albanian. Let's do another round now. Wishful thinking and void accusations to stall articles. It's weird also that in his correspondence nothing appears with the inscriptions of the supposed seal mentioned around here. So how come he didn't use that "seal" of his? But there's a lot of such discrepancies, because, you know, propaganda is so unimaginative and so barren. Better choose reality.--Vlug 15:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Summerize the Serbian claims
I'll try to sum it up in 'ere - it is to my belief that the controversy about him being "semi-Serbian". First of all, his father is from the age of Serbian glory when practically the whole Balkans were known as "Serbia". Back then it was an immense honor having to do anything with the Nemanjics, or the Serbian Orthodox Church (keep this on mind before making rash conclusions), as exposed by countless Vlachs (House of Balsic), Albanians, Bulgarians (Constantine the Philosopher, Gregory Tzamblak) and even some Greeks (who've had a much deeper cultural civilization achievements and had still their own country, unlike the stateless Vlachs and Bulgarians or the Albanians which all peacefully lived in Serbia). John Kastrioti was known as a great admirer of the vast Chilandari monastery on Mount Athos, the pinnacle and center of Serbian religion and culture (John Kastrioti donated land to Hilandar). Next of all - let's not attach modern nationalities to his wife - but we can be certain of one thing. His wife (and thus Scanderbey's mother) was obviously called Voisava and was obviously (duh) a Slav. Two of John's 4 sons (and 3 Scanderbey's brothers) had Slavic (Serbian, if you will) names: Staniša and Repoš (note that in a place where a foreign cultural civilization is superior and more dominant, assimilation and name-choosing is bound to occur - thus they could've been named just because they were born on such an occasion). Note: do not compare these to the relations of modern Serbs and Albanians (deep hatred), because believe You or not - Albanians and Serbs were practically one nation back then [Empire of Serbs, Greeks, Albanians,... the Albanians where recognized as a Serbian people in the Imperial Code and "legal" recognition]. Now that Reposh was buried in Hilandar, with an inscription on his grave in Serbian and the icons of two Saints lie on his tomb: Saint Sava and Saint Symeon (aka Stefan Nemanja). Note also that Repos remains a Serb to this very day (yet his father is a [Serbian-culture?] Albanian, if we don't regard Voisava was really a Serb woman). Also, remember the "Albanian tower" in Hilandar, Kastrioti's work. In the end, remember the three languages written on John Kastrioti's grave (also remember that his personal desires were to be buried in Hilandar): Serbian, Latin and Greek. Then again, for other reference, please see the names of Scanderbey's sisters: Marica, Valica and Jela ("female deer" in Serbian). Refer to here for information on the Kastrioti family for evidence Another thing's to be noted is that Stanisha's son was named Branilo (another clearly Serbian, or at least Slavic name), and he was named after Scanderbey's great grandfather Branilo Kastriot - while this dude's Serbian origin is noted in Encyclopedia Italianna for example (the grandfather of Scanderbeg was probably "Branilo Castriot", and he was named by him). Keep also on mind that Scandarbey married his sister Mara (check the name again) to a Serbian feudal lord, Stefan Crnojević. This all proves the cultural heterogenousness of which I am speaking.
So this citation from the New Student's Reference Work:
- Scanderbeg. (Iskander Beg or Bey), an Albanian chieftain, was born in Albania, about 1403, of Servian parents. He was called George Castriota by the Christians. He was carried away by the Turks when seven, and brought up a Mohammedan. His bravery and skill made him a favorite with the sultan, who put him in command of a division of his army. In 1443 he deserted the Turkish army with 300 Albanians, and renounced Mohammedanism. In less than a month the whole of Albania was in arms, Scanderbeg was chosen chief, and the Turkish garrisons driven out of the country He was defeated by the Turks but once in all the struggles that followed, destroying 40,000 Turks, with 15,000 Albanians, and defying the Sultan himself with his army of 150,000, until he retired disgusted from the conflict. Pope Pius II tried in vain to league the Christian princes together to help Scanderbeg in his conflicts with the Turks, but succeeded in inducing him to break a truce of peace, made in 1461, and renew the war alone. He again defeated every force that attacked him, even driving back Mohammed II, the conqueror of Constantinople, who conducted two campaigns against him in person. Scanderbeg died at Alessio, of malarial fever, Jan. 17 5468. Consult Ludlow's Captain of the Janizaries.
..was very likely referring to culturally, if not counting his (allegedly) Serb mother.
As for Encyclopedia Britannica 1911th edition:
- SCANDERBEG, or ISKENDER BEY (1403-1467), known also as the Dragon of Albania, the national hero of the Albanians, was the son of John (Giovanni) Castriota, lord of Kroia and of the Mirdite country in northern Albania, and of a Servian princess named Vaisava. His actual name was George (Giorgio) Castriota, and the name of Iskender Bey (Prince Alexander) was given to him by the Turks in complimentary reference to Alexander the Great. In 1423, when Murad II invaded Epirus, George Castriota, with his three brothers, was handed over as a hostage to the Turks and sent to be trained in the service of the seraglio. His brilliant qualities of mind and body at once gained him the favor of the sultan; he became a Mussulman, was promoted to high military command and, though barely nineteen years of age, to the government of a sanjak. He remained in the Ottoman service for twenty years, dissembling his resentment when, on the death of his father, his principality was annexed and his brothers poisoned. In 1443, however, his opportunity came with Janos Hunyadis victory at Nish. He seized Kroia by stratagem, proclaimed himself a Christian, and gathered the wild Albanian clansmen about him. In the inaccessible fastnesses of Albania he maintained a guerilla warfare against the Turks during nearly twenty-five years, easily routing the armies sent against him, and is said to have slain three thousand Turks with his own hand. In 1461 Murads successor Mahommed II. acknowledged him by a temporary truce as lord of Albania and Epirus. He died in 1467 at Alessio, and his tomb was long the object of a superstitious veneration on the part of the Turks.
Scanderbegs resistance to the Turkish advance was invaluable to the cause of Christianity, but the union which he had maintained in Albania did not survive him. He was succeeded in Kroia by his son, Giovanni Castriota, who in 1474 sold the principality to the Venetians, by whom four years later it was re-sold to the Turks.
..perfect explanation for this as well. Firstly, I think it's pretty much clear that Voisava (Vaisava?) was a Slav noblewoman, an Orthodox Christian one, what's more Serbian Orthodox (i.e. adherent of the Serbian Orthodox Church) and born in the core of Medieval Serbia (so-called "Old Serbia"). I'm now going to conduct a slight violation of WP:NOR - but "Tribali" was a synonym for the Serbs in the Early Medieval ages (but probably doesn't have much to do with this anyway, just a thought), as can be seen with the Serb ruler Stefan Vojislav "ruler of Tribals and Illyrian Serb mountains for example as referred to by Byzantine chronicler John Scylitzes.
Please also note that before the age of national awakening nationalities are, eh, "bendable", to express myself (even in such totally diverse cultures as seen with Serbs-Albanians-Greeks). The House of Balšić that reigned Zeta is undoubtedly of non-Serb origin, but probably Vlach (legends considers even French nobility), yet they are nothing other than a Serbian nobility. Just remember how many Serb clans (e.g. the Kuči) have Albanian origins, you'd be surprised to find out that a gigantically vast number of Serbs is of ancient Albanian origins (or Illyrian).
For one thing if common sense applied to the up does not make Scanderbey's mother Vojisava a "Serbian Princess", another telling does. For example, the whole territory of northern Albania (thus including Polog) was populated by Serbs ever since the Early Medieval times (first half of the 7th century perhaps? 11th-12th century by the latest) up to the end of World War II, as can be seen on most racial/ethnic maps of the 18th-19th-20th century (from those considering the Macedonian Slavs a separate people to those plainly considering them Bulgarians, all exclude northern Skopje Macedonia which is populated by Serbs; I've given a map for an example), as can be seen in various population censuses. This was the very center of the Serbian realm (during Voisava's birth at least) - as seen in the fact that political and religious importance of the region was just as Kosovo's was - and in the fact that Skopje was the Imperial capital e.g. (and in the huge exodus of Serbs from the area during and after WWII; 200,000 left the region permanently). But what is most important are the Turkish Ottoman tax censuses for Polog, which not only present that the wholesome population was Slavic (and there's I think so far no doubt in it), but that most names end with -ić, clearly differentiating them from Bulgarians. We must keep on mind that the West frequently and almost exclusively referred to the Macedonians as Bulgarians, and not just them, but the entire Serbian Torlakian-speaking populace (both to my opinion erratic generalization).
The west mainly because of these, and because of other reasons, openly considered the Kastriotis a Serbian dynasty (which is not an error from the edge of view as I neutrally presented - the Medieval Bosnian Kotromanics were both a "Bosnian" and a "Serbian" family).
In the very end, keep on mind that the documents published the by Kastriotis were aside from Latin and Greek in Serbian too, and what is more - even more frequently than the others. And finally, over at his seal he is not only the King of Albanians, Greeks and Bulgarians, but Serbs too.
So finally - he was at least a little culturally a part of the Serbian cultural milleau; most especially in the fact that Scanderbey spoke in Serbian language fluently and used it as his native (there goes down the WP:POINT Finnish-language-orientated violation). Anyone who denies that should really read up a lot more on Scanderbey. While the fact that his mother was a "Serbian princess" is I think evident, it at least deserves to be mentioned in the article, at least as a possible version, according to WP:NPOV.
I will end with some forgotten quotes in the end:
- Count Leopold Ranke said this: In Albania, a prince of Serb origin, George Kastriotovoitch Skenderbeg, fought the Turks with great valour as the prince of Albania. History of the Servian People, 1848, Leipzig, Germany
- Paul Rovinski, a Russian historian said: "...in the time of national awakening for the Albanians - Skenderbeg was as much of a Serb as he was an Albanian...in him there was much Serb blood. His mother Vojislava was a Serb princess and the names of most of Skenderbeg's sisters were Serb... Mara, Jela, Angelina, Vlajica and his brothers were: Stanisa, Konstantin. Skenderbeg's sister Mara was married to Stefan Crnojevic, lord of Zeta, who with the Zetans helped Skenderbeg for 24 years in the wars against the Turks. According to the Catholic priest of Shkodra Marin Barleci, the Turks unearhed Skenderbeg's remains and distributed them amongst themsleves 'as souveniers'. (another note about his mother)
- Teodoro Spanduci said: "Skenderbeg, a personally brave man was of Serb descent and was so useful, that he was respected by the Albanians, as well. He was the son of Ivan Kastrioti. His mother was Vojislava, daughter of the Prince of Polog"
There are many personal biographies of Scanderbey written by Croatian historians, I will search and upload them if needed.
And a Czech historian, the most neutral historian on the Balkans in the world, Konstantin Jireček, says that Skanderbeg's father was an Albanian nobleman (John Kastrioti) and Serbian Princess Voisava. I have his history books on the Balkans, and will be more than glad to scan and present the pages if necessary.
My 200 cents. I hope I cleared up something at least. --PaxEquilibrium 14:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC) I think I have to say something about above comments. All of them are pure assumptions. Marin Barletius [6] who was his conteporary and the main source on the life of Scanderbeg says openly that " Prince John I of Kastriota married Voisava of the family Tribalda, the daughter of the ruler of Pollogus, a country that lies between Tetovo and Skopje" and there is no mention of her serb origin, instead he says "Macedonians" or "Epirotes" in many cases clarly with the reference to his albanian army. There is not a single reference of her "suposed" slavic origin. In the same book the two ocasions where the serbs appeared are on Skaderbeg's way to go to the battle of Kosovo in 1448 (where he was delayd by Brakovic's army) and in the second occasion he tells that Skanderbeg sister was married to the serb Stefan Crnojević. Clearly Barletius could understand the difference between albanians, greeks, turks and serbs, but he never says anything like that on Skanderbeg' origin. Moreover his grandfather's name was Paul, his father's name John and by the way his father has changed many times his religion and in 1430, after an unsuccesful uprise, he becomes moslem with the name Hamza (Venetian reports). But in the end he 1442 he changed his religion in catholic and died as such (venetian reports). So we can find here a typical ruler who uses whatever mean to stay in power, but in the end choses to die in his original religion. Many times we are going through the same problem, the mistake that comes from the names. So we have to say that Arminius was a roman???Names in that age clearly show us the religion, but not the ethnicity of the people. What about Karol Józef Wojtyła. Is he german??? Or is he Hebrew??? For more references I suggest you to read the Musachi's Chronicle. He fought along with Skanderbeg aganst the Turks. Although he hated Skanderbeg later (in the time when he wrote the book) for what he says as "a robbery of his lands", he says nothing about his "slavic" origin. Furthermore, balcan at that period was known as serb territory???? What about this text...The Empire soon fell into a civil war between John V Palaiologos and John VI Kantakouzenos, and Epirus was conquered by the Serbian King Stefan Uroš IV Dušan in 1348. Nikephoros II took advantage of the Byzantine civil war and the death of Dušan to escape and to reestablish himself in Epirus in 1356, to which he also added Thessaly. Nikephoros died putting down an Albanian revolt in 1359 and the territory of the former despotate became a component part of the personal Empire of Dusan's half-brother, Simeon-Siniša Palailogos. In 1367 the Epirotan Despotate was resurrected under local Serbian nobleman Thomas II Preljubović. With much of the country under the control of Albanian clans, the area was divided between several rulers, each claiming the title of despotes. After Thomas' death in 1384, his widow remarried in 1385 and transferred the Despotate to homage of Italian nobility. The state tradition was carried on by the Serbian and Italian rulers of Ioannina, who solicited aid from the Ottoman Turks against the Albanians. By 1416 the Tocco family of Cephalonia, succeeded in reuniting Epirus, or at least in asserting their control over its towns. But internal dissention eased the Ottoman conquest, which proceeded with the capture of Ioannina in 1430, Arta in 1449, Angelokastron in 1460, and finally Vonitsa in 1479. With the exception of several coastal Venetian possessions, this was the end of Frankish rule in mainland Greece. ...from [[7]]. Albanian clans?! This means a lot of people....and what about their names or the territory, was it serb, greek or albanian one??? So PLEASE, PLEASE do not MESS names with ethnicity. Especially in Albania where there are 3 religions it's very difficult to say. Aigest 15:43, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Evolution
Well given that summary of "claims" above, now it's easier to understand how Serbs develop propaganda, there where Orthodoxes equal Serbs, and Pollog valley traditionally and also still fully inhabited by Albanians to this day it seems to have been "Serb" in some weird dreams. I hope admins will finally give it a read and put an end to this madness. For eg. the straight up lies like writing in Latin, Greek and Serbian or talking about the "stateless" Albanians, and all that.
Here's a map of the "stateless" (I think Serbs have abused this term enough during this century) Albanians before and after the Albanian principates united at the "Kuvendi i Arbërit" (internationally know as the League of Lezhë) in 1443.
File:Albania-of-Gjergj-Kastrioti.jpg
1403 - 1468 Albania in the Twentieth Century: a History - Owen Pearson, IB Tauris
And these were the four Albanian Vilayets (with sporadic fluctuations, firstly sandjaks) of the Ottoman Empire, with Albanian administration subordinate to the Sultan from the Middle Ages up to year 1887.
Reproduction of the four albanian vilayets
Just so that people get an idea of how far do some go and distort history. I suggest now accusers go read a little history books next time, and stop using some two and three second hand intentional political interpretations that have long been corrected. Dimror 16:13, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- You are not being good faithed nor civil at all, and your comments have been a violation of the WP:NPA (comment the content, not the user!) Wikipedia rule (I remember You also violated WP:POINT). That was a personal attack directed against me. I gave an as comprehensive and neutral as possible an explanation could ever be - thank you for your encouragements and good words (irony).
- I don't understand why are You showing Greater Albania (if that's what you're showing)? What relevance does it have with the issue. Also it's nice that You think that Montenegrins (sic!) and Epirians (again sic!) just came from nowhere from thin air or were just immigrants from Serbia and Greece that colonized Albanian lands only recently.
- But if Your original plan was to chase me off, I guess You have succeeded. Collaboration is impossible under conditions presented to You. I give up, bye!
- BTW I think You should go to a Forum. ;))) All cheers!!! --PaxEquilibrium 18:30, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know what the first map is supposed to mean (unless it presents territory where Albanians lived, regardless in what quantity, i.e. a realm with 3 Albanians and 3,000 Slavs depicted on the picture), but it very much reminds me of the demented map showing the Serbs in the Balkans when they migrated to 'ere as can be seen here, it's a blatant painting of pure non-historical madness promoted by the ultra-nationalist dream of a Greater Serbia. BTW the 4 Vilayets were not "ethnically pure Albanian-populated", Dimror. The Albanians barely had relative majority over there... talking of weird dreams. :)))
- BTW Dimror, please read WP:NPOV. --PaxEquilibrium 18:56, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
![[8]](http://img67.exs.cx/img67/8450/MapbyAmiBoue1847.jpg){kind=link}
![[9]](http://img56.exs.cx/img56/5857/VolkerkartevonMittel-undSudosteuropa.jpg){kind=link}
![[10]](http://img56.exs.cx/img56/3069/slaveni-karta.jpg){kind=link}
![[11]](http://img57.exs.cx/img57/1241/ResizeofEuropavolkerundsprachenkarte.jpg){kind=link}
![[12]](http://img57.exs.cx/img57/8127/1880-geoturkeyethnographical.jpg){kind=link}
![[13]](http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/races_balkan_shepherd_1923.jpg){kind=link}
![[14]](http://www.cjcr.cam.ac.uk/gateway/maps/Ethnic16.gif){kind=link}
Even t'is one shows the ethnic homogenousness in the Polog (deep within Serbian-populated lands), caused by demographic trends from Ottoman conquests. --PaxEquilibrium 19:44, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
This map also shows the "northern Macedonia Serbs". --PaxEquilibrium 19:51, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
If someone needs reference for the exodus of Serbs from (northern) Macedonia: I'll present sources (not written by Balkaners). For example, take the Encyclopedia of Nations: ..Some 120,000 Macedonian Serbs were forced to emigrate to Serbia.. The little remainder was subjected to assimilation and changed their surnames from -ic to -ski (such was a mass-case with the Jovanović families, all becoming Jovanovski for example).
I guess some people should first think twice before openly deciding to insult me, implying that I should need to read more history. BTW I consider myself a kind-of historian (and tend to be neutral, always noticing when there Serbian, Croatian or Albanian distortion and propaganda and where's written truth; I am a mortal though and recognize that I'm not perfect - after we all are biased and make mistakes) .--PaxEquilibrium 20:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Number 1: Skanderbeg's grandfather was not Branilo Kastrioti. This was cleared a long time ago by Henry Hodgkinson. I forget exactly how it went, but but there original historian who came up with that hypothesis was reading a document from Kanina were it mentioned a "Branilo i Kastriot" were lords of something ('i' meaning 'and' in Serbian). The issue of Skanderbeg's Serb ancestry doesn't stem from his dad, only from his mom. Besides, Skanderbeg's grandpa was Pal Kastriot who was lord of a few villages in the Mirdita area.
Getting back to his mom: the fact her name was Vojsava means nothing. A female member of the Thopia family name was Vojsava, and no one disputes that they were Albanian. George Washington is evidently Greek if you follow that logic.
Regarding his dad again: he played the field religiously. His court was surronded by Catholic priests and abbots, and he made donations to Orthodox monasteries. The pope also recognized him as the lord of the Mati region, something I don't think he'd do if he were an Orthodox Serb. And you are confusing his grave with that of another Albanian noble, one of the Thopias. His epitapth was in Latin, Greek, and Serbian, not Gjoni's. You saying that he spoke Serb fluently or whatever is ridiculous as well, because you're basing it on nothing (we don't know a great deal about the man as is, yet evidently you know all these languages he spoke).
One more thing with Vojsava. If she was a Serb, then why wasn't she from a well-know Serb family, like The Balsici, or somewhere from Serbia proper, instead of some un-important family in the Polog region which did have an Albanian population to be sure. The whole point of him marrying a Serb would've been to streghthen ties with one or another Serb dynastic family.
And all those two bit trash "historians" can say whatever they want about Skanderbeg being a Serb (Jirecek excluded, he at least carried weight as historian). I can find about 100 different people who say Alexander the Great was half Albanian, the Epirots and Macedonians were Albanians, etc., and I don't think you'll take that seriously (rightly so).
Most importantly of all, no, and I mean NO, contemporary of Skanderbeg EVER calls him a Serb. Read Gjon Muzaka's chronicle if you want (http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts/AH11.html). He was a contemporary of Skanderbeg, and mentions his mother by name (says nothing about her being a Serb, either). - nick
- No one's saying he's Serb or trying to "Serbinize" him. And yes, I am basing that he spoke Serbian and used it like native of (previously cited) sources. And thus there is no need ever to call him a Serb!
- No point lied in there totally at all. Of course he's Albanian primarily (first and foremost if anything else too).
- Please read what I wrote again.
- About his mother being a Serbian princess - that I think is evident, but also the pointlessness of the relevance You failed to miss in my text (though worthy of mention in the article).
- Re-read my post. --PaxEquilibrium 21:28, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
In all maps brought by Domitius above, Pollog valley is always within Albanian populations, so I actually thank him for taking the time and providing other facts on this. So I don't know what we've got to discuss anymore. On the other hand the 4 Albanian vilayets are to show what did the Ottomans think when they divided administrative regions. If You Pax want to call Vojsava a Serbian because of pure political interpretation, that's your problem whatever your good intentions are. There's just one glitch. Pollog did not have any "Serb prince or princess", because it's always been under Balshaj's, then under Kastrioti, then within the Albanian sandjak and afterwards within the Albanian vilayets and just as then it's still today populated by Albanians. So make your mind up that political intentions between 1880 and 1918 don't really count anything in proving anything, especially when they claim what they want, with not a single contemporary source, and especially when they have been dropped by the later editions of those publications.
The other thing I'm still not getting is what's the relevance of the Greek and Serbian languages in the article? Ok the Turkish Iskander bey I can understand because it illustrates a point, that of what does the nick Skanderbeg mean and why was one given it, but I just don't get what part of what thing do these two languages (and those others) serve to clarify?! If you want to say he could speak Greek and Serbian, say so in the article, it'd be nice if he was a polyglot, but just what does his name have to do with it?! It still escapes me. Dimror 07:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
- This last paragraph is straight to the point. All other multilingual names are irrelevant to anything.--Vlug 16:33, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
- This is getting pointless. Re-read my post, please. I'm not going to converse into a WP:POINT violation with You... *sigh* --PaxEquilibrium 09:33, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
References
Bogus reference: Ref. No. 12 "Cenni storici sull' Albania" is a bogus reference leading to an anonymous folkloric albanian site (http://web.tiscalinet.it/delta/page12.html). It has no relation, whatsoever, with the name "Andronike" to which is attached.
The person who added this "reference", and deleted at the same time my link to the etymology of the name, is actually vandalizing the article and working against the credibility of Wikipedia.Kentavros (talk)
- I didn't make it up, I provided my source. --Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 22:37, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Your "source" is hand-made site advertising Albania, including the war in Kosovo and traditional shoes. Sources have to be original, in a major european language, refering to books we can find in libraries, written by literary men. Otherwise we have a circular reference: You refer to source X which uses Wikipedia as a source and so on.
Sources written by Albanians during the Hodja totalitarian regime, or during the fascist Italian annexation or later are not credible. It was in Mussolini's plans to create an autonomous Albania in order to control the "bad boys" of the area, Greeks ans Serbians who defeated him in the battle (1940). He even took a sepherd and installed him as King of Albania. Certainly, a national hero is desperately needed in such circumstances.Kentavros (talk)
- What are you talking about? Find me a source included in the article that was written during Hoxha's reign. My source was from Harry Hodgkinson, a British scholar and his book is written in English, a major European language. Check out note 6b. About the Italian source: A bunch of sources reveal that Donika's name was Marina Donica Arianiti. We don't need ten more sources to prove this. I don't get why this is so controversial.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 19:53, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
To find more info on this Albanian-Serbian melting, check out the Serb clans article which includes even 100% Albanian clans because of the controversy.
You'd be amaized that over half of them are actually of Albanian or Illyrian origin. ;)
The relations between Albanians and Serbs were back then (and remained in the case of Montenegro and northern Albania) just like between the Croats and Hungarians in Medieval times - exactly the same case. Those who're denying it (among them even some Wikipedians) mostly do it because of modern-day Kosovo-orientated deep nationalist hatred between Albanians and Serbs that opened a can of worms. --PaxEquilibrium 21:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- Actually the Gheg clans within Malcia did not mix with foreigners because that would defeat the tribal law. Many of them however that served other rulers away from home, would modify their proper name by suffixes and sporadically mix with other nations. This has happened with many Albanians that served the Venets, the Turks, in Egypt, Romania, etc. Although for the first three generations or so they would keep their tribal traditions intact, even away from home. --Kanibal 07:32, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
The only Serb/Montenegrin clans that are "Albanian" are Kuci, Bjelopavlici (they're actually descendants of the Dukagjini family, believe it or not) Piperi, and half of Vasojevici (the Kastratovici branch). Those are the only ones I know of for a fact. I don't know of any Albanian clans that are Serb, but there are families who trace origin to Serbs (not counting intermarriage). There are two clans who came from Bosnia, Hoti and Shkreli, but they weren't Serbs (all the original people of the clan bear Albanian names, like Gega, Preka, etc).
Skanderbeg II
King Zog is stated to have called himself Skanderbeg III, but who was Skanderbeg II? 213.64.166.23 16:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
His son Gjon? Bardhylius 00:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, that would make sense. But was he king? Sponsianus 10:38, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Why does it matter what he was. It is about what he did.
I am sorry to be a pain, but where is the evidence of his nationality. The Article says that he was Albanian and the newest evidence was produced in the 1900's. If there is no earlier evidence then it should just be said that he was a rebel from the territory of the modern state of Albania. Unless somebody can provide viable information, these so called 'facts' are all nosense. And the Article from the 1300's does not mention his nationality. So connecting the name of the region that he comes from with his nationality is inappropriate. It would be like saying that because the territory at one time a ancient greek state, that he should be called Greek. Right? Wrong! In addition he was a noble, which in that area would have to mean that he had a Byzantine connection in his bloodline. (Honesty 05:25, 30 June 2007 (UTC))
Castriota, the famous Scanderbeg who was known also as Iskander Bey, or Prince Alexander, maintained an independent rule in Upper Albania for a quarter of a century (1443-67). This hero, whose feats of valour are almost legendary, was bred as a Moslem at the court of Murad II to whom he had been given as a hostage by his father, an Albanian chief; but after having won fame and honour in the Sultan's service, his race asserted itself, and he broke away to place himself at the head of his own people and embrace Christianity. [15] If you accept that the greek are albanian christians is OK.Dodona
About his Greek name
I completely disagree with putting a version of Skenderbeu's name in Greek. What is the point?! I can see why it has a Turkish version of his name, he was technically a Turk for some time and he dealt with them all his life, it's acceptable, but why Greek?! It will only add more fuel to the ludicrous Greek claims that he was a Greek himself or at least a descendant of them. Keep his name clean! Bardhylius 00:45, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
You like it or not, the Greek name appears clearly on the pictures of the article: GEORGIUS KASTRIOTI or KASTRIOTUS. I am still looking with a magnifying lens for the albanian version of GEORGIUS. Also, the seal bears its alternative Greek name, ALEXANDROS.Kentavros (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 13:17, 21 January 2009 (UTC).
- That's a latin, not a Greek version of the name.And since written Albanian documents were virtually inexistent at the time you're just gonna get a headache from the magnifying lens.Scanderbeg never used the seal personally, so the inscription matters very little.Amenifus (talk) 09:46, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
I laughed a lot, actually I cried too from the stupid edits...Greek? Serbian? LOL LOL LOL and if he was Serbian or Greek "which he wasn't" he wouldn’t fought for Albania, wouldn’t carry that flag. I guess some Greeks nationalist are getting much despaired so they want to find any way to pirate the history of Albania. It’s sad because we are neighbors and I know Greeks and Serbs who are very good people.--Taulant23 20:50, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Please read the article, Bardhylius, and Taulant. It includes a seal that Skanderbeg used. In this he describes himself as Basileos Alexander, king Alexander in Greek letters and with the Greek form of that name. Good arguments have been raised to prove that Skanderbeg had Serbian and Italian blood in him, but regardless of that Skanderbeg belongs in a Byzantine context, and the Byzantines were if not all Greek so at least all Greek-speaking, like it or not.
Alexander was probably his proper name, which is proved by the fact that the Turks call him Iskender which is indeed Turk for Alexander.
There were several Byzantine rulers in Epiros after 1204 AD who used the title of Byzantine emperor and did not acknowledge the emperors in Constantinople, just as there were other Byzantine rulers in Trebzond who claimed the title. The despotate of Epirus lasted until the late 14th century, and its later rulers belonged to Italian families. Skanderbeg was clearly a sort of successor to them. Sponsianus 10:00, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
- Gjon Kastrioti was a representative of Albanian part of the coalition against the Ottoman forces in the Battle of Kosovo in 1389. He was Albanian and so is Skenderbeu as long as he is Gjon's son.
- Blatantly, you can only try to twist his true identity clutching at straws about who he fought for. Well, his entire campaigns were explicitly under Albanian-dominated territory. He didn't go to hold out for the Greeks. The birth of his revolution began in Kruja, not in Athens. Every commanders had Albanian names, or at least the meaning of their names can only be explained by the Albanian language and its linguistic analysis. The flag and the seal of his family is what we have inherited through the years, and not taken yesterday and put it in our flag.
- As for your "Alexander" claim. You are wrong. He wasn't named Alexander. Use your logic. If his name was Alexander, why would the Turks name him AGAIN with the same name?! In fact, what they did was compare his bravery and commanding strength to that of Alexander the Great! These comparisons and epithets are given even today, like calling someone Einstein, pointing to his or her mastering of a problem. Apparently you wouldn't think his name is Einstein, would you? Details change and can be mis-attributed, but Skenderbeu's identity is not a detail. He's Albanian forever! Bardhylius 17:33, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that your last exclamation summarises your point: you are an Albanian nationalist. Please feel free to be that. However, there is not a single source behind any of your enthusiastic "explanations". We'll take them one by one:
- "Albanian-dominated territory" Is this supposed to mean anything? Parts of today's Albania had belonged to the Despotate of Epirus until the late 14th century - that state was a post-Byzantine (yes, that is would you would call a Greek state, but Byzantine is better), until its leadership was taken by an Italian family, the Orsinis. After that, Turks and small leaders held today's Albania until Skanderbeg's appearance. Skanderbeg could be perhaps seen as the starting point for an Albanian "national identity". There was definitely no Albanian state before him.
- As for the meaning of the names of his commanders, there seems to be no consensus on how they should be interpreted. Anyway, nobody has denied that most of these people lived in Albania.
- Skanderbeg was certainly named Alexander which is proved by the seal that he made himself and which you can see on this very page. The Turks did not "rename" him Alexander, they referred to him by the Turkish variety of that name, which is Iskender. Just like the Albanians have used the native variety of the same name: Skanderbeg explicitly means "Alexander the king". Even you can notice the similarity between Iskender and Skander, I suppose.
- Skanderbeg fought in today's Albania, not in today's Greece, that is correct but totally irrelevant. He fought in the territories of the collapsed Byzantine empire, that is the relevant part. Byzantine (still better than Greek) administration survived in these territories after the collapse of central power in 1204 AD (the Fourth Crusade). Greeks or Greek-speakers lived in many places outside today's Greece in the Middle Ages. You have other Greek rulers who use the same titles as Skanderbeg in Trabzunt in northern Turkey: none of them ever ruled territories in today's Greece, but they were Byzantines. And there were as mentioned Greek rulers in Epirus as late as the 14th century.
- The double eagle flag was the symbol of the Byzantine emperors in the decades before Skanderbeg. Skanderbeg, on the seal where he uses the symbol, claims first of all to be "Basileos Romaion", that is Byzantine Emperor. Can a connection be much clearer? The same eagle was also used by the Russians, explicitly because of marriage into the Byzantine royal family. It was the symbol of the Byzantine emperor. To claim that this common 15th century symbol was in fact taken from some Illyrian tombs or coins from 1500 years ago is difficult to take seriously.
The Albanian nation of today is in a territory which was held by the Byzantines and Romans for perhaps 1500 years. The Albanians have an old and well respected history and are certainly entitled to use a Byzantine symbol for their nation, probably more so than the Russians. Best regards, Sponsianus 17:28, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Well done on your prejudiced start to the discussion! Just because I'm Albanian or a nationalist, it doesn't mean that I twist the truth. I try to be as rational as possible and hereby my claims are very reliable. Let's take them one by one.
- Albanian as people. Not as a state or a nation. There were no nations until the ideas of the French Revolution sprung out. As a history enthusiast you should know this. Areas where Skanderbeg operated with his army, were very much Albanian-populated regions. This is probably one reason why Skenderbeg didn't surge in what is known today as Kosovo because of the overwhelming colonization from the Serbian people during those periods in that respective area. He demanded from and delivered to Albanians with whom he lived among. Name one single territory without Albanians that Skanderbeg operated in (except Italy where he went to help Alfonso V of Aragon, King of Naples and Count of Barcelona).
- It's not just "lived"; it's lived and fought. One can wonder why Skanderbeg didn't take under his command people from Serbia or Greece. Why was his army guided by Albanian soldiers? (Again, except for help coming from Italy). It is very rational and logical to think that you belong to the people you fight with and for.
- Both of these could be easily explained by pointing out that Skanderbeg had rather limited resources (which is why his successes were considered so remarkable). This did by not separate him from contemporary Byzantine states. The "emperors" of Trebzond fought almost all their battles on small a coastal strip in northern Turkey. Because they were "north-Turks", if such a state had existed today, and didn't care for other territories? No, because that was their only base and their wars were mostly defensive. Just like Skanderbeg's. Yet again, nobody has denied that Skanderbeg had strong support in Albania. Sponsianus 11:41, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
- It is pure naivety to base such claims on the "Seal of Scanderbeg". This is simply because in its very description, the relation between Scanderbeg, his name, and the seal is disputed. The original explanation for his name is very logical. Ottomans wouldn't name him Alexander, because it was a pagan name and then later a Christian name. What they actually did is compare his bravery and military strength to that of Alexander the Great. Alexander in Turkish is Iskander, or Skender in Albanian. Bey is the title (equivalent to Duke in Europe), thus Skenderbeg. I trust this is very clear for a stranger, let alone for a keen observer like you.
- Once again, Skanderbeg names himself Alexander on his own seal. Unless you have proof that the seal is a forgery, Skanderbeg's own opinion of what his name was is, with all due respect, far more relevant than your. Even if the seal was posthumous (and there is no reason to believe that) it shows that its creator, who lived much closer to Skanderbeg than you and I, was of the opinion that Skanderbeg was named Alexander.
- Quote from the original description of the 'seal' taken from the article: "It is also possible that the seal was commissioned by the family of Skanderbeg some time in the 16th century, or even that it is a fake from the 15th or 16th century." Unproven, in Denmark, saying he was "King of Serbs, Bulgarians and Greeks"? Is this where you want to base your name claim on? Bardhylius 14:50, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- The Ottomans did not "name" Skanderbeg in any way - this is an idea that you have invented yourself. The idea that the Turks compared him to Alexander the Great is also your own speculation and highly unlikely, especially given that the Turks arrived in the area more than a thousand years after Alexander the Great lived, and Alexander cannot have been very important to the Turks. There had also been several Byzantine emperors with the names Alexander or Alexios.
- Quote from original description of his 'name' taken from the article: "For his military victories, he received the title Arnavutlu İskender Bey, (Albanian: Skënderbe shqiptari, English: Lord Alexander, the Albanian) comparing Kastrioti's military brilliance to that of Alexander the Great." Invented myself? Did you even read the main article? These are basic things we've been learning about him for over 100 years in our schools. You expose your lack of arguments by saying such a bold thing as "Alexander wasn't important to them". In spite of factual proofs, Alexander is important to anyone who appreciates militaristic values and Turkey (Ottoman Empire), as a highly hawkish nation in that time, must have been extremely aware and in awe of his strategic abilities. Bardhylius 14:50, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- It is very well known that most European kings took either Latin or Greek names, depending on which church they belonged to. Regardless of how Skanderbeg's name actually looked, as a king he called himself Alexander. This is in perfect analogue to king Karl the Great, whose coins name him Carolus Magnus (and he is now referred to in English as Charles the Great).Sponsianus 11:41, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
- Where does he call himself "Alexander"? Again on the unproven "seal"? I am really starting to not take you seriously with these claims that are already written oppositely in the article. Bardhylius 14:50, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- The double headed eagle of Byzantines. How come from all the nations today, none of them but Albania has restored the eagle in its flag? Obviously because if it didn't belong to them, at least they deserved to use it the most. No other nation chose to identify themselves with that symbol. You simply can not be ignorant to this fact.
- This is just nonsense. The double-headed eagle is on the flag of Montenegro as well, and the Montenegrians are not Albanians.
- Please look at the article about Russia: the Russian coat of arms uses the same double-headed eagle. A symbol used by the Russian czars in the 15th century, to assert their claims as the successors of the Byzantine emperors. At exactly the same time that Skanderbeg used the same symbol. Russia is just one of dozens of states and organisations which have used the double-headed eagle as a symbol, which you can easily read here in Wikipedia.
- OK, I admit pointing at the flag is not the appropriate way to say who belonged to what nation. But it is neither an argument against it because as you said, many nations either use the double-headed eagle as a flag or as coats of arms and that doesn't mean Scanderbeg was of all Montenegrian, Russian, Serbian etc. nationalities. Bardhylius 14:50, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
World-wide, I would say the symbol today is mostly associated with Russia, being such a large country. I made Yahoo searchs for "double-headed eagle" and country name: Russia 38 000 matches, Greece 2310, Albania 1870 and Serbia 1760 (perhaps plus 1060 for Yugoslavia).
- Err..I used Google search in a (excuse my language) "asshole in Sweden" query. It resulted in about 906,000 finds. Knowing your population is 9,142,817, you have almost 10% chance (9.90% precisely) to be related to that label. Let's get real. You use Yahoo search to back your unsourced claims?! Bardhylius 14:50, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- Please realise that it's nationalistic propaganda to talk about nations "deserving" to use flags or titles. To take an example from my own country: The Swedish king has through history styled himself "king of the Vandals" which is complete nonsense, since the Vandals lived in northern Africa. There is nothing obvious in his use of this title that he deserved it or that the title belonged to him. The same goes for most other titles and symbols. Sponsianus 11:41, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
History is not an accurate book. Doubts arise even for the most widely believed figures. But we must be careful when we make claims who are fiercely against the original values of an important individual. With all due respect, people interested in stealing other nations' history can't be welcomed in Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bardhylius (talk • contribs) 00:19, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- And who decides who can be welcomed in Wikipedia? You? Finally, I have yet to see you use a single referenced source, Bardhylius. Sponsianus 11:41, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
- I have taken all my claims from the original article. Claims which are object to being viewed and corrected on daily basis from different users throughout the world offering different sources and references. Where is _one_ claim that you made that can be proved? You have none. I didn't say I decide who stays in Wiki. I said the references do. And as long as you keep changing the free encyclopedia without any strong proof you are clearly not welcomed. Bardhylius 14:50, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Look at this pasage Giovanni, figlio di Scanderbeg, sposò Irene Paleologo, ultima discendente della famiglia imperiale di Bisanzio. In virtù di tale imparentamento, i membri della famiglia Castriota Scanderbeg oggi rappresentano gli unici discendenti diretti degli ultimi imperatori di Costantinopoli source [[16]] there is writen that Skanderbeg's son was married to princes Irene Paleologos the last heir of byzantine emperor's family and now their descendants are the only remaining form the emperors of Constantinople. If you link that with the fact that the seal was propably ordered in 16th century.....well it seems clear to me. May be his descendants had some claims over Byzantine throne, but not him. As for the fact of his Iskander name, you especially Sponsianus:) should remember the fact that he was converted to moslem, that's why his name was Iskander, while those references to byzantine emperors do not count while they were orthodox and not moslems. His baptised name was Gjergj, George or whatever form you like it, but not Alexander. Anyway in his correspondence he used both names (George and Scanderbeg) keeping the last part beg and this shows that this was a nick name on the military field. Otherwise in it's correspondence should have used the name Alexander, don't you think? Aigest 12:43, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- Though formally converted to Islam, Skanderbeg was clearly a Christian for most of his life and the name Alexander (Skender) is not associated with Islam at all. Bey roughly translates as "duke", which Skanderbeg indeed was. Are there original letters written by Skanderbeg preserved? Please provide sources for this. The idea that the Turks renamed him after Alexander the Great is unreferrenced as well, and rather peculiar given that Alexander the Great was king of Macedonia and not of Albania. The Turks hardly knew of Alexander the Great's maternal connections to the state of Epirus some fifteen hundred years earlier.
- Skender is not associated with Islam? It is very common in even todays Islamic world. There are plenty of original letters from Scanderbeg, all containing "Prince of Epirus" or Iskender. It doesn't matter whose king Alexander the Great was. They didn't compare Scanderbeg to him because of his nationality, but because of his military strengths. Bardhylius (talk) 15:23, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
- Even if the seal was propaganda made by Skanderbeg's descendants, it was made perhaps a century after his death and the fact that they referred to him as "Alexander" seems like a strong indication that Skanderbeg was known under that name. Otherwise, people would not have accepted the seal, would they? Skanderbeg's wife was by the way named Andronika, a Greek royal name.Sponsianus (talk) 16:42, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
- Logically you can't take note of that seal until it is proven. Your entire arguments have been based solely in this seal. People wouldn't accept it? What is that supposed to mean? Andronika is an interpretation of the name Donika. You can say the same for Scanderbeg, Alexander is an interpretation of Iskender. But are you claiming that he was Greek or just that his name CAN be interpreted as Alexander? This will answer some very good questions from your part. Bardhylius (talk) 15:23, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
- The name Andronikus was used for at least three Byzantine emperors. It would impossible to say anything else than that "Donika" is the local version of the Greek, Byzantine royal name "Andronika". Skanderbeg used the Greek name, which has afterwards (Albania was held by the Turks for more than 400 years) turned into the Turkified version "Skender". Today, many Albanians are named Skender because their language has been heavily influenced by Turkish. Skanderbeg's name has gone through the same Turkification. But bear in mind that the same people, the Epirotes, had kings named Alexander in the fourth century BCE, long before anyone claimed they were Greeks. And neither do I claim that. All I say is that the Greek language was highly influential and that Christian kings in eastern Europe used Greek names. So for instance the Italo-Albanian George Kastrioti, who called himself Alexander, a name that already in his life was turned into Iskender by the dominant Turks. The reason that the "i" was dropped clearly shows that the Albanians have adapted Turkish names, for "i" appears before all Turkish names beginning with two consonants, such as station (istationi). Hence, Albanians have interpreted the "i" in Iskender, in fact the remnant of the Arabian version Iskander (for Alexander is understood as al-Exander, "the Exander", in Arabian, which in its turn is turned into Iskandar since classic Arabian has neither x nor e)
- Logically you can't take note of that seal until it is proven. Your entire arguments have been based solely in this seal. People wouldn't accept it? What is that supposed to mean? Andronika is an interpretation of the name Donika. You can say the same for Scanderbeg, Alexander is an interpretation of Iskender. But are you claiming that he was Greek or just that his name CAN be interpreted as Alexander? This will answer some very good questions from your part. Bardhylius (talk) 15:23, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Sponsianus (talk) 22:39, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Also I would like to add that there has been an albanian state within the territory from Shkumbin to Mat river, from 1190-1216 AD. The founder was Progoni (ruling 1190-1198),and his sons, Gjin (ruling 1198-1206), and Dhimiter (ruling 1206-1216). Also later when he conquered the territory Charles I, Duke of Anjou, citing (By conquest and self-proclamation, he became King of Albania in 1272) source [[17]]among other titles added Rex Albania. Please be informed better on the topics before saying anything. Aigest 13:00, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the help on clearing this up mate. How did I forget to mention his convertion to Islam when I mentioned how he got his name. The only possible way he may have been "called" Alexander, was if he used it as a correspondence as you said. -- Bardhylius (talk) 17:39, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- There is no mention that the Progoni called themselves king of Albania; the state they were supposed to rule is wrongly linked to the 20th century Principality of Albania.
- Charles I of Sicily was a foreign ruler who temporarily toppled the state of Epirus, which was the main state in the region of today's Albania during 1204-mid 14th century. This state was not called Albania, it was lead by Byzantines, Franks or Italians. I have however not in the least denied that the name Albania existed before Skanderbeg or that Skanderbeg named himself king of Albania. Please note that the last Progoni was known as Dhimiter, which of course is the Greek name Demetrius.
- But these are petty discussions. Virtually all Christian rulers in the middle ages had their names in either Latin or Greek, even the rulers of Ethiopia were crowned under names like Constantine and similar names. Skanderbeg was no exception to this, though I note that he himself has not left behind any readily attributable coins. Sponsianus (talk) 16:42, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Sorry i have to insist on that point but I think that claim that his name was Alexander is incorrect. Hey, in this article we are talking about Skenderbeg, does it ring a bell??? Why are we using this name? Who gave us this name? Why aren't we talking about Alexander? That's because the historians and Skanderbeg himself have used that name. I know that Skanderbeg was converted to moslem and later on 28th of November 1443 he was baptised as catholic and all the turks who had been as a garrison to Kruja's castle were offered to change their religion. The ones who didn't accepted were murdered (Barletius). I don't want to neglect the importance of the religion of that time and I strongly believe that he was a cunning catholic althogh in his childhood he was converted to moslem. Anyway I must insist that in all his correspondence (Venice, Naples, Rome, Ragusa, Milan, Taranto etc) he always used both names, George Kastriot and Skanderbeg and he never used the name Alexander. Now, why he used that name which is clearly a moslem name (Skanderbeg) is a point of question for a catholic, unless it was a military nickname (like it really was). Besides this, I think that the fact that none of the peoples on the above discussions have read Barletius or Mussachi is a negative thing. These two are the main and the closest sources to Skanderbeg (Mussachi was one of his commanders). I have found their texts in Latin, Italian and Albanian, but I have not found an english version. I think that they should be published or translated even in english in order to have a more correct opinion on the topic. Thank You and Best regards Aigest (talk) 08:46, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
- Let me first say that I much appreciate your civilised tone and sensible arguments. But Skanderbeg is known under that name mainly because he has, after his death, become an important figure for the Albanian identity. Please compare this with an important figure for today's France, the Frankish emperor who is known as Charlemagne in modern French. The name Charlemagne is highly unhistorical for this king, who was known as Karl to his contemporaries and on his coins - on which he, just like Skanderbeg on his seal claimed to be a Roman emperor - as Carolus. Christian medieval kings were cosmopolitan - they married internationally and rarely belonged to a specific nation. Many of them claimed to be successors of the Roman emperors, and they took names in Latin (in the west) or Greek (in the east). Even the medieval kings of Ethiopia took Greek names, as I've mentioned. Surely you agree that Skanderbeg ruled much closer to the Byzantine empire than they did? I look forward to you presenting actual sources, which may indeed prove your points.Sponsianus (talk) 17:34, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
I should even add something about Progon and his sons and Albanian Princedom. In their correspondence they had used and had been referred by others (Pope Innocent III in 1208 for example) the title Albanian Princeps and Iudex clearly showing their status among other small noblemans. This show that he had created a state with an ethnic expressed quality. He was their Judge and their Prince and he was vasal to none and was free to enter in diplomatic relations and alliances with everyone. This clearly show the attributes of a state. The fact that this state was overruned later by Byzantines and Normans doesn't eliminate the fact that it had existed. As for the Charles I a question arise. If he had the territory of Epir, why he used the term "King of Albania"? That's because Albania and Abanians were known as an entity before him. My point was that it has existed before an Albanian entity as a state. Although it was not a Kingdom in Dhimiter's time it was in fact a princedom, close but not so much like Montecarlo these days. By the way, Dhimiter was the son of Progon and ruled from 1206-1216 A.D. His predecessor was his brother Gjin (1198-1206). Their family is thought to be from Skurraj (close to Tirana capital of Albania) and later on this Feudal family was one of the most famous in that period of time (their coat of arms is the symbol of Tirana municipality today) so I am using the Albanian format of name here, but they have their variants in greek and in Latin. Once more time Best Regards. Aigest (talk) 09:09, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, but what did the Progon dynasty mean by the name "Albania"? They were obviously not masters of all of today's Albania. To compare once again with my homeland, Sweden: there were kings calling themselves rulers of Sweden (Sverige) from before 1000 AD, but these kings only ruled the land of the Suiones, the proper and original Swedes, today a small region around the capital Stockholm. The appearance of such kings cannot be used to prove the existence of a Swedish people in all of today's Sweden. The same goes for Albania: that the name appeared does not mean that it denoted the same meaning. The Romans styled themselves masters of Asia and Africa; it would be absurd to claim that they ruled in Korea or Zimbabwe. So no, I am not convinced that Albania meant the same to the Progons as to us, though the Progons should of course be seen as some of the forerunners of the modern nation of Albania. As should Skanderbeg; I have not in the least questioned this.Sponsianus (talk) 22:20, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
- The name Albania clearly comes from a root that means "mountain land" and has indeed been used for a number of mountaineous territories, for instance in Georgia and Scotland. In medieval times, it is by no means certain that this term was equivalent with the modern nation Albania. If the princes of the house of Progon struck coins - I have looked but not found any - I am fairly certain that these were struck in Greek.
- As for Charles I, it seems correct that he used the term "Albania" for the land. Why? Perhaps because the name Epirus referred to what had in name been a Roman or Byzantine province for about 1500 years and he wanted to make it clear that he was not a subject of the Byzantine empire. But still, I am by no means saying that the name Albania did not exist before Skanderbeg. I am just saying that it is not certain that it meant exactly the same thing, or that the people of today's Albania saw themselves as subjects of the house of Progon.Sponsianus (talk) 18:01, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Of course that we can not say for sure that the people of today's Albania saw themselves as subjects of the house of Progon. First, for the reason that their Princedom was a small territory and didn't included all the lands where albanians were as population. Secondly, we don't know how the albanians refered to themselves, (albanians, arban, epirots, macedons, illyrians) because in the further correspondences and literature all these terns have been used by them. (Skanderbeg's letters for example). 80.78.64.202 11:54, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Entire re-structuring of the article
I think the article needs an entire re-structuring as it is between 'Very Poor' and 'Poor'. This is probably the greatest personality in the history of the Albanian nation and giving him this much attention is absolutely un-Wikipedian and disrespectful. I am a vivid fan and observer of his past and life but was in general focused on different articles, but now my aim is to get to this one an improve it in my best way possible, speaking everything-wise.
"This is probably the greatest personality in the history of the Albanian nation". Albanian nation, ha? Did this nation exist in G. Kastriotis era? References please. We understand that Albania does not have many heroes to boast about, but this does not mean that can create a virual history by using only Albanian references. If you agree that Kastriotis was a "byzantine" hero with Greek education, then we can cooperate for a good article, respecting the good fame of Wikipedia.Kentavros (talk)
We should start with propositions and general ideas of how the article should look in overall view and then implement them little by little. I expect more Albanians to be involved in because they've grown with his stories, however international support from others is always welcome. Bardhylius 17:48, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
80.78.64.202 12:05, 16 November 2007 (UTC) The best book ever writen for Skanderbeg is that of Kristo Frashëri "Skenderbeu, jeta dhe vepra", published in 2005 (I think). The information there is very accurate, there are more than 450 pages,and i think might be a good base for an article. In that book there are hundreds of references too, so I think it will be very helpful.
Sorry I never knew about this book. I'll try to find it and buy it and hopefully it will shed light to some disputed facts. Bardhylius (talk) 13:09, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Language of user Bardhylius
"Err..I used Google search in a (excuse my language) "asshole in Sweden" query. It resulted in about 906,000 finds. Knowing your population is 9,142,817, you have almost 10% chance (9.90% precisely) to be related to that label. Let's get real. You use Yahoo search to back your unsourced claims?! Bardhylius 14:50, 8 November 2007 (UTC)"
The following quote could perhaps give contributors to this page a hint of the point in arguing with user Bardhylius in a serious discussion. My patience is drained, anyway. Best regards Sponsianus (talk) 15:48, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
I am saddened to see the lack of your arguments enforce you to point to my peculiar illustrations. Bardhylius (talk) 15:07, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
- user Bardhilyus has a history of long temper. However, that should be discussed on the admin's noticeboard. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 13:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
- You mean short temper. I just have different, weird ways of describing things. I hope not to offend anyone. Everything is relative though. Bardhylius (talk) 15:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
- If you do not want to offend a user from Sweden, a good idea may perhaps be to avoid using terms such as "***hole in Sweden" altogether. Just a kind suggestion.Sponsianus (talk) 22:01, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
- You mean short temper. I just have different, weird ways of describing things. I hope not to offend anyone. Everything is relative though. Bardhylius (talk) 15:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Albania prevented Turks from invading Western Europe?
"For a quarter of a century Skanderbeg and Albania prevented Turks from invading Western Europe" this sounds like a bit of exaggeration and nationalistic. Surely Turks had quite a lot of space in Balkans to 'move around' Albania. Also they could attack from mediterranean seas. And had Turks not fight in Albania, would they go and invade West Europe during that quarter of a century? It is difficult to prove such statements. Regards, Filanca 14:20, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Why is hard to prove? They did not take attack Italy or occupie it during Skanderbeg's time.Western Europe got time to prepared because of Skanderbeg and the big prove:Pope gave Skanderbeg the title ATHLETA DI CHRISTI ,what more can u ask for!Thank you and have a nice day.--Taulant23 02:11, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
- Filanca, this is a quote coming from the foreigners. Albanians haven't said this. Sure there were ways to "move around" Albania but in military strategic decisioning, you need to finish off important revolts first in order to move on invading another countries. Scanderbeg and his newly formed army proved to be such a barrier, such a head ache and an insult to Ottoman Empire that they had to stop every plan of going further more forward in Europe in order to defeat Scanderbeg first. All this is obviously credited to his militaristic strength, thus thanks to him Europe was safer. Bardhylius (talk) 20:54, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see why this is controversial. Skanderbeg and his Albanian subjects undoubtedly prevented the Turks from expanding westwards. Sponsianus (talk) 22:03, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see why this is controversial. Skanderbeg and his Albanian subjects undoubtedly prevented the Turks from expanding westwards. Sponsianus (talk) 22:03, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
- "For a quarter of a century Skanderbeg and Albania prevented Turks from invading Western Europe". More of a joke, for those who know well the local history. Albanians were the best allies of the Ottomans. During the Ottoman rule in Greece and Serbia, the Albanians were employed as mercenaries. In many places they were the actual occupation forces, while the Turks had only the supervision and the higher ranks of administration.Kentavros (talk) 09:57, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- I see that you have a PHD in history, but read some books about the war made on that time, between the Ottomans and the balkan allies, who were:Skcanderbeg, and his army, made of Albanians and Janosh Huniad, and his army made of Hungarians. I am sorry, but yes scanderbeg prevented turks from invading Europe, during his life, with the help of Huniad.Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:07, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- I see that you have a PHD in history, but read some books about the war made on that time, between the Ottomans and the balkan allies, who were:Skcanderbeg, and his army, made of Albanians and Janosh Huniad, and his army made of Hungarians. I am sorry, but yes scanderbeg prevented turks from invading Europe, during his life, with the help of Huniad.Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:07, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- Albanians were the best collaborators of the Ottomans in the Balkans. In the written history and the local tradition are known as turk-albanians and are famous for their brutality against Greeks, Serbs and other christians. Not only did not prevent turks from expanding west, but they offered them the best soldiers. In most parts of Greece and Serbia the turkish occupation was left to albanians, while turks were only an elite minority.--84.205.228.5 (talk) 08:50, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
The double-headed eagle isnt illyrian.......
The double-headed eagle is a common symbol associated with the Byzantine Empire.It has nothing at all to do with illyrians or illyria.In the context of christianity and the byzantine empire Skenderbeg used itMegistias (talk) 21:16, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Actually the double headed eagle originates in the Hitties civilization,several millenia before the Byz.Empire even existed.And yes,it has been seen in illyrian armies,i.e.the ones that followed Alex.The Great and praetorian guard of the roman army,which used many illyrian mercenaries —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amenifus (talk • contribs) 10:58, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
No it wasnt dont make jokes.It has nothing at all to do with illyrians or illyriaMegistias (talk) 11:40, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
- This is a sensitive issue to Albanian nationalists, Megistias. Of course you are right that this was a Byzantine symbol in Skanderbeg's days, i.e. more than 1500 years after Alexander the Great. It's quite frustrating with this "telescopic" perspective, that places Skanderbeg in a mythological landscape that ignores the regions's then recent Medieval history. Sponsianus (talk) 23:23, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Great,now every single Albanian that dares defend his symbols is labeled a nationalist,racist and so on.I never said that Scanderbeg's flag wasn't Byzantine.After all he was a Byzantine nobleman and feudal lord,so naturally he used a flag familiar with the Byzantine flag.And nevermind my sense of humor,I wasn't joking about the illyrian thing,I've seen that somewhere,I'm not making things up.Either way the double-headed eagle was seen in the Hitties civilization before anywhere else.And I must point out that it means much more to the Albanians today,than it does to Greeks.It symbolizes one of the very few times the Albanian princes actually put aside their differences and united under a common cause.Anyways,I've seen this particular symbol be used by Russians and Serbs as well,but I didn't hear any complaints there.Amenifus (talk) 08:43, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Its a known Byzantine symbol-that Byzantine subjects used like the albanians-and used by tens of countries,organisations and the Orthodox Greek Church.It has nothing to do with Illyrians it was the Byzantine war banner and the yellow variety of the flag was the peace flag/banner.Found in the hittites and not in illyrians.Megistias (talk) 11:41, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
First of all,I never said that it wasn't Byzantine,I merely pointed out that it has been seen elsewhere.Read this: http://www.geocities.com/protoillyrian/god I've no idea about the reliability of the source,so judge for yourself.It seemed pretty NPOV to me.As for Scanderbeg,obviously his banner was a variation of the Byz. flag,denoting that he considered himself a Byzantine nobleman,and indeed he was.To say that his flag came straight from illyria times would be at least an exaggeration,but saying that illyrians never used it would be wrong also. PS Nice to see people keeping the conversation civilised,carry on. Amenifus (talk) 09:59, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Remove
Gjergj Kastrioti-Skanderbeg is Albanian and his last name too.
Kastrioti Greek ???Megistias (talk) edit about the Albanian hero Skanderbeg [18]
The last name Kastrioti refers to a toponym in northern Albania called Kastrat, not the Greek word "Kastron" for "Castle".
His family was from northern part of Albania.--Taulant23 (talk) 03:00, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
This is not accurate. In the Balkans (including Albania and Greece) there are dozens of toponyms such as "Kastri", "Kastro", "Kastraki" etc, all deriving from "Castle". The suffix -otis (Greek: -ώτης) is very common in Greek surnames or other words as showing the origin of a person or family (compare to "Epirote", Gr.: Ηπειρώτης, i.e. "of Epirus", Patriot, Gr. Πατριώτης, meaning "from the same country, compatriot", etc). Hence, "Kastriotis" literally means "Born in- or Comming from Kastri". However, in historical literature I found in Greek language, but could not cross-check in english literature, the name "Kastriotis" was given to the family because George's father was born in the Greek city of Kastoria. I.e., originally was named "Kastoriotis" which is supposed to have be abbreviated to "Kastriotis". This information is supported by the fact that in Greece, and indeed in Kastoria, there are many persons named "Kastriotis". If you have greek characters set, search in www.google.gr for "Καστριώτης". Also, in Kastoria there was a famous public school that, according to Greek sources again, was built in 18th c. by some Kastriotis, offspring of that noble family. I am trying to find relevant data in english.Kentavros (talk)
- Kastriotis may mean "born in Kastri" or whatever, but that's just the point: The name is not Kastriotis, it's Kastrioti.Adding an "s" on someone's surname may well helenise a whole bunch of people(ex Don Quixote,Luciano Pavarotti).Kastrioti comes most likely fom the latin castrum, and since his lineage is proven to have died out of males, modern Greeks named "Kastriotis" are unrelated and even if they were, it would only imply that have distinct Albanian acestors.Amenifus (talk) 10:00, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- There is a region in Serbia[19] and Albania[20] with the same name.It comes from the latin word Castra.A nominative plural noun of neuter gender. According to Lewis & Short, dictionary item linked in External links, General, either the singular or plural was used, castra with a possible meaning of "tents."Its not Albanian in origin nor Slavic in origin.The word was used for kastrinsios (a chamberlain in the Byzantine palace) for example.Megistias (talk) 11:14, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
- It had a Roman military base there being border country and hence the name adoption and in the 3rd century A.D. it was called Ad Fines(close to the border).Treasures of Yugoslavia: An Encyclopedic Touring Guide - page 371 by Nebojs̆a Tomas̆ević, Madge Tomas̆ević, Karin Radovanović"It grew up on the site of the Roman settlement Ad Fines".Megistias (talk) 11:35, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I strongly recommend that...
...we discuss first and then edit.By chance I saw that Skanderbeg's family is of Serbian origins.Provide solid sources please!There are just hints that his mother might have been of serbian or bulgarian origins.That does not even render his mother purely Serb,let alone his family.I am reverting the article to the previous state.Amenifus (talk) 10:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
If you chose to edit this wikipedia only with some Greek like him editors it is ok i do not care it is you choice , but i will differ very much my opinion for you. Please do not block wikipedia Albanian project like Taulant users ect!. If some mad "gjitones" nationalist say that our national heroe is not Albanian then my answer is this mine favour reference:
Reference .' 'Barleti repeatedly stresses the national aspect of his work. Scanderbeg is not only an impressive hero, but also the saviour of his native country. When he is compared with Alexander the Great and Pyrrhus, these are not arbitrarily chosen models from antiquity, but national heroes, for Alexander's Macedonia and Pyrrhus' Epirus are for Barleti synonymous with his own country. Mostly he calls it Epirus, but also often Albania' Source : A Heroic Tale: Marin Barleti's Scanderbeg between orality and literacy Minna Skafte Jensen (b. 1937) Ass. professor of Greek and Latin, Copenhagen University, 1969-93. Professor of Greek and Latin, University of Southern Denmark, 1993-2003. Member of the Danish, Norwegian and Belgian Academies of Sciences and Letters. Main fields of research: Archaic Greek epic and the oral-formulaic theory; Renaissance Latin poetry in Denmark.[21]--Dodona (talk) 10:24, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I've no idea who "serbinised" Skanderbeg's family in the article,and I don't care either.As long as people continue editing at will,without consulting anyone,I'll simply revert at will.Amenifus (talk) 11:05, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Date of death
This edit is somewhat enigmatic. It changed the date of death without any explanation, and the explanation that was provided ("... so he lived to about the age of sixty three") would seem to argue for the very 1468 date that it removed, not for the 1466 date that it inserted. Comments? -- JackofOz (talk) 07:13, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Unreferrenced edits
There's been a number of unreferrenced and highly polemic edits here, one of them being the elaborations on Skanderbeg's name and the idea that he was "awarded" the name Skander (Alexander) by the Turkish sultan, who for some reason compared this Albanian general to Alexander the Great, who had been king of different country some 1700 years earlier.
This extraordinary statement should certainly be either properly referrenced - or removed.
The article also includes slurs against the authenticity of the seal where Skanderbeg is called "Emperor Alexander" in Greek. Need I say these slurs are also unreferrenced?
a) That there are grammatical errors. I can't see any, and given that most of the seal legend consists of abbreviations, one can hardly talk about grammar at all.
b)That Skanderbeg would not have called himself (Roman) emperor (BASILEOS) because there existed an outpost in Trebizond in northern Turkey who used that title. There is no other word than nonsense for this. After the fourth crusade of 1204 AD, there were frequently three or four rulers with the title Basileos simultaneously: in Trebizond, Nikaia/Konstantinople, Epirus and the Latin emperors.
That the Serbs and Bulgarians indeed had their own rulers in Skanderbeg's days likewise has nothing to do with the authenticity of the seal. A seal is propaganda - it does not actually mean that Skanderbeg was master of these territories. The titles of the emperors of Trebzond made believe that they ruled the entire Eastern Roman empire - in fact they ruled little more than a single city.
Finally, the article now reads that Skanderbeg never was a king - also without sources. If the seal is authentic, he did indeed claim to be king. If his kingship was recognised is another question.
There is a tendency behind all this: to sever the connections between the Greek name "Alexander" and Skanderbeg, and downplay his Greek (or rather Byzantine) connections. This propaganda has to stop. Best regards, Sponsianus (talk) 21:38, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Tsk.You caught us.This is indeed a desperate act to distant Kastrioti from Greece.You seem quite frustrated about the name "Alexander",as though it would prove some sort of "greekness" in him,while among albanian figures there has been a considerable number called Alexander.The name "Gjergj" is a christian one and, like Alexander, has equivalents in almost every language.You make a weak point,since if Skanderbeg was to be related to Greece at least by name, Gjergj(or Georgios rather) would be adequate enough.And since Gjergj was his actual name(NOT Alexander),Lord Alexander seems like a simple nickname,given to him by the Sultan in honor of the service he provided.While the Byzantine Empire collapsed, smaller kingdoms were formed, and several rulers claimed the title of Byzantine Emperor, while none of them commanded ALL the previously Byzantine subjects.Scanderbeg signed his letters never using the seal, usally as Prince of Albania, not as ruler of Bulgarians,Greeks etc.And considering that he was blessed by the Pope and not the Patriarch of Constantinople, I don't think he claimed to be king of all Byzantium.Amenifus (talk) 11:44, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
- What I am after here is proper referrencing. The clausul about the seal now contains a polemic of unreferrenced arguments against its authenticity, using a number of speculative political claims. This is original research (and not good one, to that) and should be removed.
- I have certainly not claimed that Skanderbeg was Greek, I have claimed that he existed in a Byzantine context, which is rather much stating the obvious. As for actual names, there were a number of cases when Byzantine pretendents assumed royal names upon their coronation. If there are authentic letters of Skanderbeg preserved, which may contest the authenticity of the seal, these should be referrenced. The same goes for the idea that the Sultan nick-named Skanderbeg Alexander: if there are original sources to back up this claim, they should be brought forth.
- Skanderbeg may well have claimed the Byzantine title despite being under the Pope's jurisdiction. There was for instance a Latin Byzantine "empire" between 1204-1261 AD. As you say, the claims and titulature of the various Basilei after the fourth crusade in 1204 AD usually had little to do with their actual dominions.
- The last pretendent to the "Latin" version of the title Byzantine emperor had died in 1383, and Skanderbeg may well have wanted to claim it and created the seal for this purpose. Alternately, his descendants may have made the same claim and fabricated the seal. But in any case, why wasn't he called "Basileos Giorgio"? Obviously, whoever created the seal (before 1634 AD) did so convinced that Skanderbeg would be recognised under the name "Basileos Alexander".Sponsianus (talk) 13:45, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
- Kastrioti was taken hostage along with his brothers.Upon reaching the sultan's court,he had them convert to Islam and as it was accustomed in such ocassions, they were all given new names, homes and fortunes.Gjergj, being Murad's favorite, was named Iskander and given the title of Bey.All this according to Barleti.If you wish to pursue the seal issue further, I'll keep looking.Amenifus (talk) 12:08, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. That is a referrenced version of this statement as I asked for, and it also makes sense: Kastrioti, an Epirote hostage, was hardly compared in earnest to Alexander the Great. He was given the Turkish version of the name Alexander as some sort of courtesy. Whether this means that he, once back in Albania, chose to call himself Alexander is another point. The seal is known from 1602 AD and in the very least shows that Skanderbeg could be identified with a "King Alexander" at that point. Why else attempt to profit on this title - if the seal was not original?
- I will make some changes to the name section and hope you will find them satisfactorily. If you could please add the reference that would be good.
Best regards, Sponsianus (talk) 12:05, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
- My changes have been edited. If George Kastrioti was given the name "Skender" - which was certainly not a title - that should be registered as not part of his birthname, but it is nevertheless a name. Bey is a title and Skenderbeg is a name + a title. Anyway, it is not possible to distinguish between a "name" and a "title" for a Medieval person in the modern sense. People frequently changed names when they were awarded offices, entered monasteries etc. Rulers did this all the time.
- Cf the Pope, the only relict of the Medieval policy: is his name Benedict or Joseph Alois? Will change the section so that this is reflected. Sponsianus (talk) 09:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Did he speak Albanian?
I read somewhere that he spoke several languages but not Albanian. Is there some proof that he spoke Albanian? --Error (talk) 01:19, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
We cannot have proof per se, since Albanian was only spoken in the middle ages, and his correspondences were in latin or greek.Albanian is considered his native tongue, seeing that he was born and passed his childhood in northern Albania and his soldiers were Albanian.Amenifus (talk) 09:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
In Albania you can find a lot of books of people who knew it and said that he was proud of his nationality, he spoke Albanian in the periods's dialect... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.249.202 (talk) 14:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
We don't neet "a lot of books" (made in Albania) but we need original sources. Does his biographer mention that he was speaking albanian? In which page? The Wikipeda article "Albanian literature", says that there was albanian written language since early 14th century. Why then Kastriotis did not write his correspondence or something in Albanian? The same question applies for M. Barleti, whom Albanians declare as "famous albanian writer".Kentavros (talk)
- Yeah sure, he should have written in Albanian, but ... to whom?? Any other European power knowing Albanian language?! BTW why German princes of that time used Latin in their correspondence? Were they Ancient Romans? FYI Latin and Greek were the international languages of the correspondence in that time. Stop these nonsense arguments please. Aigest (talk) 11:51, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- The original authors (e.g. Barleti) say that George Castrioti was speaking Turkish, Arabic, Greek, Italian and Slavonic (in this order). They do not mention anything about Albanian. 84.205.255.20 (talk) 13:04, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- How did he communicate with his men then?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 03:09, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
- The original authors (e.g. Barleti) say that George Castrioti was speaking Turkish, Arabic, Greek, Italian and Slavonic (in this order). They do not mention anything about Albanian. 84.205.255.20 (talk) 13:04, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- Usually when you talk about the languages that one knows, the native language is supposed as known and only the foreign languages are states just like in the cases of a CV. However taking into consideration the fact that he lived for more than 40 years among albanians shouldn't he had known such language?! Not even to speak to his soldiers?! What about his speeches stated by Barleti throughout his book, for example when he entered Kruja, quote "It was not me who brought the freedom to you, I have found it here, among you" ? Did he spoke to the people in Arabic? No mention about Skanderbeg's Albanian proficiency to Barleti, simple .... WAS HIS NATIVE LANGUAGE. Aigest (talk) 15:03, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
- His men probably all knew at least Greek and Turkish.--Michael X the White (talk) 22:12, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
"Lirinë muk jua solla unë, atë e gjeta këtu,midis jush!" Stop asking stupid questions!Long Live the Albanian King!--Jurgenalbanian (talk) 21:37, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
- "His men probably all knew at least Greek and Turkish"??!! What kind of affirmation is that. His man were poor peasants, mainly highlanders living in mountains. As for the Greek Language in the time of Byzantine Empire outside the Greece itself also including parts of Asia Minor the Greek Language was used mainly by the officials and merchants. Also in Albania of that time the Byzantine empire structures and power were collapsed by roughly 200 years, so I strongly doubt that the Albanian population, which were mainly highlanders living in mountains with a small economy style, isolated from the rest of the world, were to know Greek language. As for the Turk language even after 500 hundred years of occupation in 1912 there were only a handful of Albanians, mainly officials (military, civil, feudals) and merchants who were to know the Turk language the overhelming majority of the population was not (even with a lot of borrowings from the Turkish language). Imagine that 500 years before occupation, while there was a blody war and the Turkish administration was not in power on that part of Albania. Stop nonsense affirmations. Aigest (talk) 09:34, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Apparently Kastrioti learned Greek, Turkish and a slavic language(Bulgarian I think) in the Sultan's court.Besides being a brilliant commander, he was apparently a polyglot as well.That's what Barleti says anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amenifus (talk • contribs) 11:04, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
John Musacchi
According to John Musachi himself, used in this article as a source BTW:
Into Albania came Scanderbey, a significant individual Serb by birth, of such high virtue that he was respected not only by Albanians but also all the other peoples. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 23:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Hahahahahah,so his name was Djorde Kastriotovic,and he didn't fight for Kruja,But for Krujovic and his fathers name was Gjonnivic :P sad,but still funny :P--Jurgenalbanian (talk) 08:10, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
as a serb i dont accept skander-bey, as his name shows he was revered by the turks --Тиранин —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.165.40.12 (talk) 15:52, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- You couldn't accept him even if you wanted to, since he was a proud Albanian: "Nay if Murad did divide with me and make me co-partner with all his empire, I would never suffer the name of Albania to be stained and blemished with this blot of disgrace and infamy." -Skanderbeg (Taken from Scanderbeg: From Ottoman Captive to Albanian Hero and the original source is probably Marin Barleti) Also, I ask anyone who believes this crap to find me where the quote came from in here, the work of John Musachi: [22]. As a matter of fact, I'll find it for you: "Later, during the reign of Murad the Second, Scanderbeg arrived, the son of Lord John Castriota, who ruled over Matia (Mat) in Albania."--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 18:13, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
"Byzantine", Illyrian, and the Royal houses of Hercules and Achilles
I am very sorry to disappoint all those who state that Georgios Alexadnros Kastriotis was just "Byzantine", as such nation never existed. The term "Byzantine" was INVENTED in 1853 by a German historian (Faltermayer) to disconnect the Greek nation and the newly founded Greek state to Rome and Roman legacy (many see the Catholic churches intentions in this). Till the 20th century, the term "Byzantine" had never been used, but the term "Roman" instead. So, it is impossible he was just "Byzantine".Also, at the time, Balkan Roman nobility consisted of Greeks,Serbs and Bulgarians (and Slavs in general). Albanian nobility seems strange... to me at least. Now, Illyrians. The Illyrian royal house (even though they were clearly barbarians, at least in culture) was the royal house of Thebes ( the Cadmeian, members of which in Thebes where Oedipus,Laius,Antigone, etc.). It was known as a greco-barbarian tribe, like the Thracians. Obviously, Phyrrus was not Illyrian, as he was of the Aecid dynasty, the royal house of Achilles, king of the Molossians, who was clearly at the war in Troy. Olympias was princess of Epirus, descendent of Achilles, member of the Aedic dynasty. Philip II of Macedon was of the Herculid dynasty. Queen Olympias met King Philip II in the Eleusinian Sacraments,where barbarians were not accepted. Both Olympias and Philip were Greek, so were Phyrrus and Alexander II the Great, and so are Epirus and Macedonia. Anyway, it seems to me very strange that the Seal was in Greek... Why not being in Latin, the other Roman language, as Latin is clearly much closer to Albanian?? Also, it is clear to me why Kastriotis is not commemorated by the Orthodox church and some other Orthodox people(s): those who "defected", converted to Catholicism at the time were excommunicated by the Patriarch and became heretics. --Michael X the White (talk) 20:55, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
How come the Kastrioti family were given a Greek city to rule in Italy?? Soleto is still Greek and is part of Grecia Salentina...--Michael X the White (talk) 18:47, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
- Unless you are referring to the Islam-Catholicism, Scanderbeg din't experience any other "conversions".And by the way it's Kastrioti.Amenifus (talk) 07:07, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
- Islam->Catholicism??? Is George a Muslim name?? Could someone carrying the Two-Headed Eagle in his seal be Muslim???--Michael X the White (talk) 21:58, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
How come the Kastrioti family were given a Greek city to rule in Italy?? Soleto is still Greek and is part of Grecia Salentina...--Michael X the White (talk) 18:47, 10 June 2008 (UT
I like how you elegantly danced around the obvious OR (well, calling it simply OR is not doing it justice) and replied to the more serious "queries", Amenifus ;). That being said, Michael, despite your message being quite old, so sorry for the necromancy, your 'method' is akin to using folklore of the Aleksandar Veliki and Pirro Burri kind to prove the unprovable. 3rdAlcove (talk) 07:27, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
- Nah, I just asked a question to get an explanation! I didn't try to prove anything. I just wondered and thought you might have had a good justification.If you do, please help me...But I cannot see any.Perhaps the "obvious" is not just "obvious". Perhaps the obvious that is widely considered "correct" so far, is not correct after all.--Michael X the White (talk) 09:35, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
- Stop making an Albanian prince to a Greek. As I said before, Greeks have thousands of heroes and do not need Skanderbeg to make them feel better. Skanderbeg, fought for his country Albania, he did unit all the Albanians and their lords in one sword.Please,stop this nonsense.--Taulant23 (talk) 06:35, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
- Also: I like contradicting "dead certain" theories, but when historians agree almost unanimously there's little to do or say.Since this article was created people have been questioning Kastrioti's origins every few months or so.Apart from the usual Serb-Greek(with absolutely no offence to either nationalities) claims I've heard tons of others, and they usually give it up and get bored... so could we just disperse with all the unnecessary edits?Amenifus (talk) 11:01, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
HERALDIC EMBELEM of KASTRIOTS
Can some one please find the Heraldic emblem of the KASTRIOTS
- This article shows it: http://www.heraldica.org/topics/national/albania.htm --Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 17:34, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Proposed move
- The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the proposal was do not move"--Yannismarou (talk) 17:34, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
I propose moving "Skanderbeg" to "Gjergj Kastrioti" since that was his real name. For example, Richard the Lionheart's article title is "Richard I of England", since that was his real title. Should the move be done or not?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 00:41, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- Strongly Agree, but I`d propose "Gjergj Kastrioti (Skanderbeg)" because he`s well known with this name.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:42, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- We can still use the redirect and mention "Skanderbeg" in the article, so I do not thing there is a problem with that.--Michael X the White (talk) 19:35, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:UE. Skanderbeg is the ususal and best known designation for this figure in English. His full name appears and should continue to appear in the lead. See WP:MOSBIO, particullarly Wikipedia:MOSBIO#Names. Aramgar (talk) 15:00, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose The biographer of Skanderbeg, refers to him as "Georgius". Who says that his real name was "GjergJ"? If Albanias want to honour Skanderbeg as local hero, it's up to them. But Wikipedia has to abide by the serious bibliographic sources and does not have to conform to the aspirations of any nationalist. The pictures of the article are speaking by themselves about his real name. Also, it seems that albanian circles are funding some persons to maintain the article according to their interests, and they keep restoring the text daily, disregarging the historic accuracy and the rules of Wikipedia. Can someone stop them vandalizing this article? Kentavros (talk)
- Oppose - he is best known for "Skanderbeg" -- CD 14:27, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Spliting the article
May be it is better to split the article of the military campaign to three periods as Falmarayer and Noli do. First 1443-1450, Second 1451-1457, Third 1457-1468. There are so many events which can not be lead out and in this form this part seems a little bit too long. Aigest (talk) 08:16, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- I agree. It's great to know that I was thinking along the same lines also. :)--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:45, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
George Castrioti Tekstil ve Çanta üzerine kurulmuş bir firma. 2006 den beri varlar. daha geniş bilgi için: http://www.georgecastrioti.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.96.136.247 (talk) 12:31, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Protected
The old, old dispute about whether Skanderbeg is Serbian, or of Serbian descent, or otherwise, has reared its head again. I see previous discussions here, but no consensus; however, edit-warring is unhelpful. I know very little about Balkan politics, so am neutral here. Accordingly, I have fully protected this page for three days for discussion to follow on the cited sources on either side. If there is no consensus, I suggest editors follow some form of dispute resolution. But one thing is certain- disruption will not be tolerated. Rodhullandemu 00:38, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
- Since you asked for it, I'll try. I doubt the opposing side will join though.
Source 1 (Guerrilla warfare by Walter Laqueur): This does not not specialize on Skanderbeg and is inaccurate. For example, Skanderbeg began his revolt in 1443, not 1442. Also, Fizur is not a Turkish name, but Firuz is. After his death his movement did not collapse, but was continued by Lek Dukagjini. If the author was careless enough as to put that in his book, then why should we believe what he says about Skanderbeg? Furthermore, this book specializes on the history of guerrilla tactics and warfare, not national origins.
Source 2 (A Legal Geography of Yugoslavia's Disintegration by Ana S. Trbovich): The book specializes on the fall of Yugoslavia and uses old Serbian sources to "prove" Skanderbeg was a Serb. The first mention uses Jovan Cvijić as a source. He has been dead for more than eighty years, and this must be considered outdated, if not biased. The second mention uses Harry Hodgkinson as a source to try to verify his "Greek-Serb-Albanian" stock. Hodgkinson's book never mentions such a thing, and, contrary to what Trbovich cites, the book tries to refute his supposed Serb and Greek national stock. Note seven for chapter two in Scanderbeg: From Ottoman Captive to Albanian Hero says this exactly: Since everything in the Balkans has to be turned into political effect, both Greeks and Slavs have claimed Scanderbeg as one of themselves. The Greeks who do so rely on the fact that the name Castrioti probably means the family originally came from a village with the Greek name Castrion ('a little castle') of which there were many in the Byzantine empire. This is as scholarly as proving that the Bishop of Chester must be a Roman Catholic, and his ancestors Italians, because 'chester' in a name is proof of Roman occupation. The claim that Scanderbeg was a Slavs was first made by a German who misread a document of 1368 in Serbian. Among the signatories were a Branilo (a Slav Christian name) of Vlora and a Castrioti of Kanina. By overlooking the single letter 'i' (meaning 'and') he produced Branilo Castrioti as Scanderbeg's Serbian great-grandfather. Therfore, here is evidence that Trbovich miscited her source.
Source 3 (Travels in the Slavonic provinces by Georgina Mary Sebright and Adelina Paulina Irby): The title should foreshadow what I will say: this book does not specialize on Skanderbeg and not even Albania. Also the book was written in 1877.
As a final note, I will show how careless the compiler of these sources was when trying to hide the fact that he was cherrypicking sources. When one opens up the link the compiler provided, he will see that in the Search bar it says Skanderbeg Serb. When one clicks the Search Books button, he will see a whole list of sources saying Skanderbeg was an Albanian or arguing against other national origins.
I will compile a few of them myself:
- George Castroiti Scanderbeg (1405-1468) by Fan Noli See pg. 198, where he tells us that John Musachi, a relative of Vojsava, says that she was Albanian.
- A History of the Crusades, Volume six, by Kenneth M. Setton, Harry W. Hazard and Norman P. Zacour
- The rise of nationality in the Balkans by Robert William Seton-Watson
- The fall of Constantinople, 1453 by Steven Runciman
I hope this will clarify my intentions from now on when I revert a disruptive edit dealing with what I have argued against.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 19:09, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
- I made no comment on content here as the protecting admin, but my Chambers Biographical Dictionary describes him as "of Serbian descent", and I'm ambivalent as to how reliable that is. Meanwhile, WP:BURDEN applies, so it's up the the other editor to provide valid sources which, as you eloquently point out, seem to be lacking. Rodhullandemu 19:58, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Skenderbeg WAS Albanian, I'm not trying to dispute that;in the Balkans (and usually elsewhere in Europe) your paternal identity is your ethnicity, his mother WAS a Serb however. Again, find me a source that specifically says she WASN'T a Serb.
Anyways, as for your little "careless" claim, I've got nothing to hide, you asked for published sources, I gave you published sources (although the ones the first time were dismissed even though they were the most authentic presented). I'm tired of this BS. Skenderbeg was an ALBANIAN, his mother was a Serb, get over it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Serbia123 (talk • contribs) 01:28, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
- Seeing as how a consensus on her nationality is impossible to reach (since Vojsava is a very ambiguous character; we don't even know for sure what family she came from!), I suggest doing what I have been trying to do for months: establish common ground. By that I mean not mentioning whether or not she was Serbian or Albanian or Bulgarian or Macedonian or Vlach or Greek or whatever nationality wants her. Just mentioning that she was the mother of Skanderbeg and is claimed by John Musachi (who, by the way, is an Albanian nobleman) as his relative and that Marin Barleti says she is from the Tribalda family is enough for me. Furthermore, I will again cite Fan Noli in his explanation of how futile an attempt to give a national origin of an Albanian chieftain. (Fan Noli) As to what you said about the published sources, I tried to undermine their supposed reliability above. I have to agree though, even if he did not have a single ounce of Albanian blood, then he still is an Albanian. He fought for the Albanians, with the Albanians, followed the Albanian religion, united Albania, called himself an Albanian, and everyone else saw him as an Albanian. This would be similar to the case of C.G.E. Mannerheim, the national hero of Finland who is of German and Swedish heritage. But we're discussing his origins, not his claimed nationality.
- This is meant to be a response to both replies.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 15:15, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Not good enough, friend. Firstly, since all my sources are "outdated", I could use the same argument against yours, but I won't. Although while we are talking about Marin Barleti, Croatian scribe Kacic Miosic actually mentions that Skenderbeg spoke Serbian fluently and carried all his discussions in this language.
See, not saying she was Serbian implies that she was Albanian, a historically unsound implication considering there's sources that support the contrary and not mentioning these sources wouldn't be historically accurate.
I slightly changed the article to state that she was of "likely" Serbian descent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Serbia123 (talk • contribs) 21:11, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
- Marin Barleti is a primary source, Miosic isn't. If you want people to believe to believe you, you should put an exact and verifiable reference from Marin Barleti, whom Miosic cited. Also, just because he knew Serbian doesn't mean he was a Serb. He probably grew up with Serbian Janissaries for all we know. Besides, he fought for the Ottoman Empire in Serbia. He knew Turkish, Latin, Greek, Arabic, and a bunch of other languages by the way. We should put that he was of possible Bulgarian, Vlach, Turkish and Greek descent too. :)--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 16:09, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
The mother of Skanderbeg was a Bulgarian. „Huic uxor fuit Voisava, Pologi Domini filia, est autem Pologum oppidum in Macedoniae et Bulgarie confinibus.” Gegaj,A., L`Albanie et l`invasion turque au XV, Paris, 1937, pp.33-34; Pisko Julius, Skanderbeg. Historische Studie, Wien, 1894, pp.115-116; Jingby (talk) 17:49, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Nevertheles she was from Slavic origin, see:Kosovo: contending voices on Balkan interventions, William Joseph Buckley, Publisher William B. Eerdmans Pub., 2000 ISBN 0802838898, p. 101. Jingby (talk) 18:23, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
By all means put he was possible Bulgarian, Vlach, and Greek descent, BY ALL MEANS. However, MOST sources identify that his mother was a Serb and this should be stated as well. That is called historical accuracy my friend, like I said, not specifying what ethnicity she was likely to or may have been automatically implies that she is Albanian and this is not historically accurate. This has to be addressed.
The article should read "was a princess of likely Serbian (references go here) or possibly Albanian (references), Bulgarian (refrences), Vlach (references) etc. origin" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.129.40 (talk) 18:38, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
- Musachi, an Albanian nobleman, says she is related to him, therefore making her an Albanian. ([23]) Which is the most reliable?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 18:56, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
First of all, you're citing an Albanian historian. That being said, her supposedly "being related" to him does not necessarily mean she of primarily Albanian descent. I'm "related" to my great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather, but he could be from Scandinavia for all I know.
Next, great you have a source. So do I. Why do your sources get mentioned but mine don't? Clearly its not unanimous or set in stone fact that she was an Albanian and this HAS TO BE ADDRESSED in order to be historically accurate.
Lastly, I'm going to dig up a few more sources. I know I have them it'll just be a little bit before I can find them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.129.40 (talk) 20:08, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
- He's not a historian. He was a contemporary of Skanderbeg (Musachi). Also, I have heard that Vojsava's house can still be visited in Berat. This would make sense if she was really a Musachi since that family controlled Berat. But please don't take this too seriously. This is just what I have heard. However, I think it is still worth a mention since maybe somebody could possibly verify it.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:49, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
As per WP:RS you have to have an author dealing with Skanderbeg topic in detailed manner. As far as I see here and throughout the article itself Noli 1947 is the latest and most authoritative source on him. The other sources which deal in detail with him are Barletius 1510, Mussachi 1510-20, Paganel 1855. They all have been used and analyzed in the last work of Noli. For example the fact which was noticed first by Jorga (that had been a misinterpretation of Skanderbeg father origin in a document in Kanina castle in Vlora region there was a document signed by some nobleman, between them there was ..,Branilo i Castriot ... led Hahn to the conclusion that he was a Skanderbeg great grandfather and he was a serb. This reference has been used in 19th century in some of the books regarding Skanderbeg. In the beginning of XX century Jorga saw that document and concluded that (i) in the middle of the two names showed two different persons "Branilo and Castriot" was the right translation instead of the first one) is presented in the book and every source on Skanderbeg has been analyzed and used. Up to now he remains the most authoritative source on Skanderbeg and his opinion on Skanderbeg origin is the more relevant. Aigest (talk) 07:03, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Voisava was Bulgarian or Serbian princess. Check here, please: Compte rendu du Congrès scientifique international des Catholiques tenu a Paris du 1er au 6 avril 1891: section. Sciences religieuses, Volume 2 of Compte rendu du Congrès scientifique international des Catholiques tenu A. Picard, 1891 Jingby (talk) 08:34, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Apparently you didn't read or understand my above discussion. Please take a look at WP:RS in wiki, just click on the link. Aigest (talk) 13:32, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Fan Noli is an Albanian historian, Gaius. Also, lets not forget that there is a good chance she came from this "Tribalda" family. It would make sense that this family was Serbian because "Tribal" was a medieval name used by foreigners for Serbs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi On top of the sources I've provided (as well as this new one Jingiby provided), I don't see why the possiblity that Vojsava was a Serb doesn't deserve to be at least mentioned. Can you tell me why?
Aigest, we are not talking about his grandfather, we are talking about his mother. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.129.40 (talk) 21:54, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
- Fan Noli's work is one of the first extensive and fully sourced biographies on Skanderbeg in the modern era. The fact that he is Albanian does not negate this. Fan Noli must be considered reliable since his biography on Skanderbeg is used in the scholarly world today. Furthermore, Vojsava's family origins seems to be contentious since Musachi claims her as his relative, while Barleti says she is a Tribalda. Ultimately, it should not mention her nationality because trying to determine the ethnicity of an aristocrat would only lead to speculation. Moreover, it is not important. Why would somebody from a strict paternal society care about what his mother's origins were? If she was Serb, he would not need his mother's supposed Serbian background for anything. What would he do with it, ally with a vassal of the sultan when the greatest European monarchs were just across the sea?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 23:05, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Whatever you say. Why shouldn't it mention nationality, you're not making any sense, if you can provide more information as opposed to less, why would you want to provide less? (unless you've clearly got an agenda, which is pretty obvious). Again, not mentioning her ethnicity implies that she was Albanian which is far from an established fact, people reading the article deserve to know this. Well, I'm guessing him speaking fluent Serbian probably had something to with his mother. The bottom line is, there is absolutely no reason not to mention it.
Also, Serbia was a vassal of the sultan from 1389-1402 after which it sided with Hungary against the Ottomans. And Skanderbeg did make alliances with Serbian leaders. We fought the Venetians together on numerous occasions for example. Anyways, him making alliances "with the greatest monarchs of Europe" didn't do jack for him, they sent token troops and very minor financial aid so yeah, allying with Serbia probably would have provided him with more real,actual support. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.129.40 (talk) 19:58, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
You say her origins are far from established as fact yet you want to put her possible origins in?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 23:18, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Exactly. Because not putting them implies that they are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.129.40 (talk) 03:21, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
Well? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.129.40 (talk) 15:39, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
- So you want to make Skanderbeg a Serb because you don't want people to know that he's Albanian?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 17:24, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
No, you're twisting my words. I want to make clear the possibility that Skanderbeg's mother could quite possibly be a woman of Serbian descent (refs) or Albanian descent (refs). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.129.40 (talk) 17:56, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Well, are you gonna respond? It's a wily tactic you're pulling by just ignoring these discussions all together so you get your way. Tell me, whats wrong with what I have proposed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.129.40 (talk) 18:19, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. If you really want me to argue against your position, I will, but using references from the stone age won't help. All the citations that are used correspond to my initial arguments of unreliability which have yet to be debunked.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 16:00, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
The only "arguments" you had were redundant and abstract. Clearly, 4 published sources, her Slavic name, and the Slavic names of her offspring and relatives suggest AT LEAST THE POSSIBILITY that she was a Serb. Not to metnion the fact that some of his relatives were even buried in Hilandar, a Serbian monastery. This is absolutely ridiculous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Serbia123 (talk • contribs) 17:28, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
So Skanderbeg is now a devout Serbian Orthodox Christian and so was his family? Even if this were true, it does not imply Serbian ethnicity since many Albanian nobles converted to the Serbian Orthodox Church to avoid being labeled as a heretic by Dushan and his heirs. Why should anybody care what nationality Voisava was anyways? The only references that mention her Serbian ethnicity rely on the fact that Voisava is probably a Slavic name. Voisava was a common Albanian name of the time, found in many Albanian noble families like the Topia. Anyways, what it says now does not mention whether or not she was Albanian or Serbian, just that she was likely from the Tribalda family or the Musachi family. Let the Musachis and the Tribaldas argue over this.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 21:41, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
You say Albanians converted to Serbian Orthodoxy to avoid "persecution". ANd that exactly it, that's your opinion, its not fact, and you don't have anything to back you up.Prove that "The only references that mention her Serbian ethnicity rely on the fact that Voisava is probably a Slavic name". You dug your own grave with that last comment. Karlo Thopia married Voisava Balšić a SERBIAN noblewoman. They had a daughter named Voislava Thopia. Clearly its a Serbian name my friend.
As for your final remark, that's utter BS, because not stated the possibility that she was Serbian gives the reader the impression that she MUST have been an Albanian which clearly isn't an established fact and that has to be mentioned and you know it as well as I. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Serbia123 (talk • contribs) 02:33, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
- The Serbs, evangelized many centuries after the Albanians, did not receive their missionaries from Rome. In Stefan Dušan's Code of Laws, there are indications that those who had links with Rome were persecuted. Source: "The Albanians in Yugoslavia in light of historical documents" by Dr. S. S. Juka. John Kastrioti, in letters to his Serbian neighbors, claimed to adopt their faith and even wrote his letters in the Serbian language when in correspendence with them. He was originally a Catholic, however, and died that way. The fact that Voisava's national origins are not recorded by the primary sources is enough to show that the claim relies on name and region of birth. Perhaps I used the wrong Voisava for my support, but Musachi mentions Voisava Arianiti, Donna Voisava Carles (who was his niece), and a Voisava Kastrioti, who was the granddaughter of Skanderbeg. Besides, the Albanians claim the Balsha family (Eqrem bey Vlora does so). There is also a possiblity that Milos Obilic was Albanian and the battle of Kosovo was fought by Albanians; this is a published theory ([24]). Do you get what I'm saying? By the way, I'm pretty busy in real life so I won't respond as often as before.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:34, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
That's great, Milos Obilic might have been an Albanian. By all means, you can write that on the Milos Obilic page if you want to and as long as you provide a reference, I'm not gonna stop you (although your source isn't a theory its a translation of an Albanian epic poem). So why then, is the clearly real possibility (an opinion shared by 5 published sources that I have provided) that Skenderbeg's mother might have been a Serb not allowed to be posted?
You may be of the opinion that the sources I have are invalid, but that's all that is, an opinion and a wikipedia article can't cite that as a source. It can, however, cite 5 published, non-Serb sources whether you agree with them or not.
- You're a jokster. Your sources are outdated! When will you realize that? News Flash: Western writers can be just as biased and unreliable as Balkan writers, especially when they lived in the damned stone age.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 22:05, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, yeah whatever. And I truly wasn't joking when I said you can post that Milos Obilic may have been an Albanian, I really won't edit you. Unlike you, if a reference is provided, even if I don't necessarily share the same opinion as the poster, as long as a reference has been provided, I'm not going to edit him.
Also heres a book that wasn't written too long ago and states that Skenderbeg was of Serbian extraction (a source I believe I haven't put up before). http://books.google.com/books?id=OEvWBG6Ct3YC&pg=PA47&dq=skanderbeg+servian&lr=&as_brr=3#v=onepage&q=&f=false
- If you're really willing to accept any published source as infallible truth without reading it critically, then why should anybody listen to you? Anyways, your source doesn't correspond with reality. Why would a Serbian janissary have any motive to fight for a crusading Catholic Albanian state? Spandounes also made an error. He refers to Marin Barleti as his main source, but Barleti never says that Skanderbeg is a Serb. Furthermore, his "biography" of Skanderbeg is only one page long. Why should he be trusted over Demeter Franco or Marin Barleti, who wrote extensive biographies of the hero? Yeah, you're really trying to say Skanderbeg is Albanian. What's next? George Arianiti is Djuradj Arianitivic; Lekë Dukagjini is Lekovski Dukadjinivic; Serbians are the true heroes of the Western world while Albanians are jihadist Caucasian imports and the Albanian language is closely related to Chechnyan?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 21:11, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, yeah, everyone's wrong but you, you know everything, you are the father of knowledge, everyone that disagrees with you is wrong. Why would the son of a Serbian jannisary who led a Catholic Albanian state be buried in a Serbian Orthodox Monastery? Do you have concrete proof that Barleti never once mentioned Skanderbeg's possible Serb ancestry because this isn't the first time I have come across authors citing Barleti as their source for his Serbian ancestry. Anyways, we're talking about his possible Serbian ancestry from his mothers side, remember that.
When did I once even mention George Arianti or Leke Dukagjini? Or that "Serbs are the true heroes of the Western world" or that Albanians are related to Chechnyans? No honestly, find me where I said this and that this isn't just you insulting me.
- Lol, serbia123. So a Catholic is buried in a Serbian monastery? lol? Sorry professor, I forgot that you teach Albanian studies at Cambridge University. Obviously, you know the primary sources very well! Anyways, I found where you said Albanians are Chechnyans: [25]. :D--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:56, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
You didn't answer any of my fucking post. You wanna stop fucking insulting me and cut to the fucking chase?
- No, I really don't want to Professor, since they are not very insightful and blatantly misguided.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 21:12, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
In other words, you're out of arguments. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.129.40 (talk) 04:26, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- What do you think? I have a list written down somewhere? Besides, what arguments do you have other than some Serbian Orthodox monastery for Catholic Albanians and what you read on geocities about Marin Barleti?-Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 16:15, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
I just gave you modern source citing Barleti as a reference to Skenderbeg's Serbian origin and all you did was insult me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.129.40 (talk) 18:32, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
LOL!--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 04:11, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Oooooh, good one! No actually, are you going to refute the source (and not with a garbage argument like "Barleti never said that" but then failing to provide evidence that he didn't say that)? Because if you're not, then there is no reason for me not to put it up (especially considering its "modern). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Serbia123 (talk • contribs) 00:51, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
scanderbeg
dont make big mistakes saying that scanderbeg was born in diber its not true scanderbeg was born in mati castles because he was a prince he was born in the castles of MATI region and not in dibra mountains so say his historians of his time barletius frangu and muzaka that kastrioti were from mati region so be serious when you write historical materials —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.106.109.26 (talk) 16:33, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
- I agree.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 16:43, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
hundred best generals of the human history
The "Legacy" section says "Kastrioti has been classified as one of the hundred best generals of the human history", but the link points to the internet forum and some unofficial list made by an forum user. It has no real weight, and so should be deleted from the article. Vanjagenije (talk) 20:29, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
- I agree.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 18:33, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
References of the article
- Regarding personal life they should be on the topic, Skanderbeg biography (there are many)
- Regarding its activity (diplomacy, wars, alliances) apart the above mentioned sources other books could be used (preferably detailed) Aigest (talk) 06:29, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- Demetrio Franco gives a detailed account of Skanderbeg's career in the Ottoman Empire, but mainly talks about Skanderbeg's personal feats of bravery rather than his campaigns. For diplomacy and alliances, we can use his correspondences with his contemporaries (I have Kristo Frashëri's book translating many of Skanderbeg's letters). For wars, Franco gives detailed accounts of most of Skanderbeg's battles and spends a chapter discussing Skanderbeg's favored tactics. He chose exactly what Sun-Tzu would have recommended. :) --Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 22:28, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Gjergj Kastriot Sk. or Gjergj Kastrioti Sk.
I propose changing his name from Gjergj Kastriot Sk. to Gjergj Kastrioti Sk. His surname or family name was Kastrioti; Skënderbeu (Scanderbeg, Iskenderbey) was his nickname, given by the Turks. --Guildenrich 21:55, 5 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guildenrich (talk • contribs)
Scanderbeg by Harry Hodgkinson
Reference: Scanderbeg by Harry Hodgkinson published in 1999 The center for Albanian studies
Albanians never tire of reminding themselves, produced an Alexander to subdue Asia : a Pyrrhus who crossed over Italy to fight the Romans ; a series of emperors ,Diocletian among them . who staved off the collapse of the Roman empire ; finally in Constandine the man who found the second and the more enduing Rome …
The language of Albanians ,which come down from pre –classical days ,is weighty evidence in favors of their claims .
Albanian these man of our times , like those who Scanderbeg led to war ,still carried on taboo against working in iron ,for instance ,which leads the imagination back to the time , tow and half millennia ago , when the new technique of iron smelting broke down the old heroic ,aristocratic bronze age society which Homer has made us familiar … —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.60.31.51 (talk) 12:17, 9 October 2009 (UTC)