Talk:Republic of Ireland

Semi-protected edit request - 8/4/2024

Inexplicably, someone in the past day or two has been changing the demographics in the sidebar to list the largest ethnic group as "Asian Irish", as well as changing the percentages. Can someone revert this? Samonellamiller (talk) 02:55, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I'll take a look now. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:49, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Ah - that guy. No idea how long it took that obvious vandalism-only account so long to be perma-blocked. All the changes were reverted. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:51, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I mean why don't you take your time to learn on how to revert an edit, it's not that hard! Luigi Cotocea (talk) 10:44, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I mean, why don't you take your own advice and learn how things work here? It's not that hard, Luigi Cotocea. The page is semi-protected, meaning accounts must have made a minimum number of edits before they can make edits. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:08, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Look, i edit on Romanian wikipedia a lot, so on English wikipedia is different. Luigi Cotocea (talk) 16:08, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Uh-huh. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 16:51, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Not the Republic of Ireland

The name of Ireland is simply Ireland and not the Republic of Ireland. One may refer to the official list of countries from the United Nations or to the websites of the government of Ireland which both indicate this 72.51.112.144 (talk) 16:53, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes everyone knows. However it's a natural disambiguator since the island is also called Ireland. There are very few country articles on Wikipedia that are actually at their official names. Canterbury Tail talk 17:08, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Its official description is "Republic of Ireland" which is used as natural disambiguation, see discussions at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration. In contrast "Republic of France" isn't common usage and the country is primary which is why we don't use the official description for France. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:59, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi, well noted. However unlike the use of "Republic of France", "Ireland" is by the far the most common name used for the state in everyday use, both nationally (Ireland) and internationally (Europe, US and further a field). This is clearly demonstrated in the name of state in Wikipedia pages in other languages, for example Irish, German, French, and Dutch. There is little argument for the continued use of the "Republic of Ireland", it has no legal basis or no basis in everyday use. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 09:28, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

@TomÓCiarraí: How do you distinguish between the island of Ireland, and the country of Ireland? You will see at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration which @Crouch, Swale referred to above, that there have been several long discussions previously about this, but never a WP:CONSENSUS to change the articles' names. Bazza 7 (talk) 09:40, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I know this has been discussed to death but surely putting the island to "Ireland (island)" and the country to "Ireland" would be the most accommodating arrangement? What are the cons? I think it makes sense that the country would take precedence over the geography (some examples I came up with: America points to USA not the continent, Austrailia points to the country not continent). D1551D3N7 (talk) 20:23, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Why not the island as "Ireland" and the country to "Ireland (state)"? The island is likely the primary usage considering its existence throughout history and not just 100 and a bit years. Canterbury Tail talk 20:36, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Age isn't the primary factor in which page should take precedence. Notice how America and Australia have existed as continents for millennia and yet the country takes precedence.

You are making an assumption when you say the island is the primary usage. I checked the page statistics here and while the island page is currently higher I reckon that's due to it currently being the primary as the patterns on both pages match up. This indicates to me that most views are expecting the country and clicking through to the country page rather than finding what they want on the island page (there is also the possibility of reading both pages).

As an Irish person I find it somewhat demeaning that you insist the island is the main page and relegate the country to being the secondary topic and clearly others feel this way also whereas moving the island page is generally inoffensive. D1551D3N7 (talk) 21:14, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Completely agree, that the country should take precedence over the island. More times than not when people refer to Ireland they are referring to the country not the island. As mentioned before this is not the case for Wikipedia in other languages, and the current setup in English is confusing to say the least. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 09:50, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Do you have evidence for that that takes into account thousands of years of historical record before the country was formed? A huge proportion of the world doesn't actually realise there's a difference between Ireland the country and Ireland the island, and most overseas interactions with Ireland on a personal level are regarding the island historically and not the modern political state. As an Irish person I find it somewhat demeaning that people want to sweep aside the history of the island and say that it's only the modern state that is the important topic. Canterbury Tail talk 11:11, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Cannot see how this is sweeping aside history. The modern country of Ireland is very much connected with its history, the country was not created in a vacuum. Struggling to see what your reason is to not call the country by its official name, and the name in which most people globally use (aside from the UK potentially). TomÓCiarraí (talk) 11:41, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi, generally in Ireland and internationally both officially and informally when referring to the country "Ireland" is used and when referring to the island "Island of Ireland" is used. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 09:44, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Actually I meant "French Republic" but in any case although that may be the long official descriptive name I've never heard it used while I've always heard Ireland, the country called "Republic of Ireland" which specifically stated as being the official description. The French constitution doesn't appear to specify the country's long official descriptive name but more importantly is common usage. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:49, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

There's a page on this at Names of the Irish state which is very detailed.

As you are British you will commonly be exposed to "Republic of Ireland" in usage as that's the name British law has chosen to use but for people living in Ireland and the rest of the world this is not the case. The name for the UN, EU, Council of Europe, IMF and OECD is "Ireland". The only place "Republic of Ireland" is used as a name is for the soccer team and also notably this Wikipedia page. Google for "Ireland" and "Republic of Ireland" and notice the difference in the results.

An "official description" is not a name, why are we supposed to use a description of the country as the title instead of its common and constitutional name?

Only Brits commonly use the "Republic of Ireland" due to Northern Ireland being a common part of their discourse (and need to disambiguate for politics, travel, business) but other countries internationally assume Ireland to be the country or don't have a need for disambiguation so often. Normally if people want to refer to NI they say NI, it's only in the UK that people would ever assume "Ireland" to mean "Northern Ireland" and thus need to disambiguate. D1551D3N7 (talk) 20:45, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

The description of the country is separate to the name of the country. As per Article 4 of the Constitution, the name of the country in English is "Ireland". "Republic of Ireland" has no official status as a name. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 09:55, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

And not a single person here thinks otherwise. Canterbury Tail talk 11:11, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

You are indeed correct. Just wanted to ensure there was no equivalence given between description and official name. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 11:44, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Can I please ask those who are simply restating established facts, as if they are arguments, to realise that you're not going to "one and done" this discussion by doing so. It is acknowledged fact that Ireland is the name of the state (per the constitution). And that the Republic of Ireland is a description (per the Act). And that the island is also called Ireland (commonly and per the constitution). Etc. Simply restating these established facts (as a kind of "gotcha") is pointless. And does not address the issue that we cannot have two articles with the same title. Please argue your point on the basis of your proposal. And the relevant naming and disambiguation guidelines. For example, if you think that it should be "Ireland" and "Ireland (island)", then argue why the name of the state is (now) the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (over the island). Or, if you think it should be "Ireland (state)" and "Ireland", then argue why a clunky/Wikipedia-only parenthetical disambiguator is preferred over the common, natural language and officially recognised descriptor. To the extent that WP:NCDAB should be overlooked. Stating things like "the state is called Ireland [fullstop/gotcha]", or "Republic of Ireland is a description not the official name [mike drop]", is about as useful in progressing this discussion as quoting Pi to 10 decimal places. Guliolopez (talk) 12:01, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Well noted. I would argue for the use of Ireland / Ireland (Island) over Ireland (Country) / Ireland, as the former is the primary use of the term. This is demonstrated by a Google search where the majority of results relate to the country not the island. The term for the island has limited use, namely the geographical use for the island and organisations that cover Ireland and Northern Ireland such as the Irish rugby team. All other uses relate to the country. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 14:05, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Its the official description of the state, isn't that the point? When disambiguation is needed as it is on Wikipedia the description is appropriate but when it isn't such as when linking the country in the infobox of Rathmullan it is piped as "Ireland". Per WP:NCDAB if there is a term which is commonly used it can be used for natural disambiguation which seems appropriate here. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:34, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

We are talking about a name not a description. They should not be equated. Officially the state should never be referred to as the Republic Ireland, hence this element of the 1948 act is irrelevant to this discussion on the name. As suggested the terms Ireland and Ireland (Island) should be used instead, given Ireland the country is the primary use of the term and not the island. Furthermore this overcomes the confusion between both terms. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 18:29, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I would like to support Tom's recommendation (new account but please don't hold that against me) that the primary use of "Ireland" should refer to the country rather than the island. I've noted the discussion at this location and elsewhere that not all states are referred to by their official name in their URL, however, I would suggest Ireland is unique in being the only country on Wikipedia where its name is shared with a geographic feature and the geographic feature takes precedence. By way of example, the primary topic for Belize, Jordan, Moldova, Niger, Paraguay, Chad and Guinea all refer to the states rather than the geographic features that share their name, i.e. Belize River, Jordan River, Moldova River, Niger River, Paraguay River, Lake Chad and Gulf of Guinea respectively. I would suggest Ireland the state should be at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland and the island of Ireland should be at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland (island) or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island of Ireland. Most people in Ireland and Northern Ireland would use the phrase "Island of Ireland" if needing to make the distinction between the state and the island but I appreciate the URL is a touch unwieldy so the bracketed (island) version may be more appropriate. Moreover, I think, as Tom mentions, generally, throughout the world, the use of Ireland refers to the state; that's not to say in some contexts people wouldn't use Ireland to refer to the island but it's most definitely in the minority. Consider the use of Paraguay; if the primary Wikipedia topic was about the Paraguay River and it said (paraphrasing) "oh, you're looking for the state, that's over here", I think it would be considered odd, confusing and inconsistent. Using Republic of Ireland for the topic on the state named Ireland seems incorrect and a touch anachronistic when a more sensible and consistent solution is available. Jkelly789 (talk) 01:47, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Rivers and lakes are not a good example as most if not all rivers and lakes on Wikipedia take the form "Lake X" or "River X" and don't run in to the same problem as this article, there was never an intention to name the page "Paraguay River" as just "Paraguay". This is why I used the continents examples (Australia, America) which would be referred to in a way that conflicts with the country. Most island states seem to have just one article for both country and island from what I can find (even Cyprus where the island has occupied territory).

• Madagascar has an article for the island at Geography of Madagascar but the state comes first.
• Solomon Islands is the state, geography is at Solomon Islands (archipelago).
• Comoros is the state, geography is at Comoro Islands.
• Samoa is the state, geography is at Samoan Islands.

There is a counter-example where Micronesia is the geographical group and the state is at Federated States of Micronesia but this has differing factors in that it is a collection of islands and "Micronesia" contains islands than the just state D1551D3N7 (talk) 08:35, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I feel that 'Ireland (island)' is clunky whereas 'Republic of Ireland' is an elegant disambiguation. So I'm opposed to change. Dgp4004 (talk) 08:34, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion has moved on from the use of the Republic of Ireland as the name of the state, given this is not the official name and not the name in which most people refer to the country. The question is now which is the primary use of the term Ireland, the state or the island. From my viewpoint the answer is clearly the state. Any additional thoughts? TomÓCiarraí (talk) 10:48, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

What references and evidence do you have that the state is the primary usage whenever people say Ireland? Canterbury Tail talk 11:47, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Firstly if you look at Google Trends for searches globally over the last 5 years searches related to Ireland and country or state, are consistently higher than searches related to Ireland and island. Notwithstanding this, many of the top searches for Ireland and Island relate to River Island, Love Island or the islands of Ireland (such as Achill). Which can be further discounted from the searches related to Ireland and Island.

Secondly, if you consider on a world or European stage, Ireland refers to the country not the island. For example: IMF, OECD, EU, European Council and UN. This is also reflected in non governmental organisations such as the International Energy Agency, European Broadcasting Union, World Medical Association, International Committee of the Red Cross, and the International Federation of Arts Councils and Culture Agencies to name but a few. There are limited organisations that refer to the island like rugby and hockey.

Therefore, the evidence is clear that Ireland primarily refers to the country not the island. If you believe otherwise please put forward the evidence. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 15:07, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm aware that 'Republic of Ireland' is not the name of the state. It is, however, the name of the Wikipedia page and I don't support changing to either 'Ireland (island)' or 'Ireland (state)'. 'Republic of Ireland' is fine in my view. Dgp4004 (talk) 11:27, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

That's a bit of a circular argument, this discussion is about the name of the Wikipedia page. If you feel the name of the page should be the Republic of Ireland, please put forward the reasons why. The evidence is pretty clear, globally Ireland is the name used both officially and colloquially by most organisations and people (see previous comments). The only exception to this is in the UK, in which Republic of Ireland is used frequently. That said the British Government officially refers to the country as Ireland not the Republic of Ireland.

Finally, I do think that wishes of the country regarding its naming should be respected. It's not a name that is disputed like North Macedonia. To disregard the correct and preferred name is insensitive. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 15:26, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm also opposed to this change. Contrary to what is being said about primary topic, when I google "Ireland": https://www.google.com/search?q=ireland+-wikipedia, only six of the top twenty hits relate to the republic. The rest relate to all-Ireland, the island or Northern Ireland. DrKay (talk) 15:34, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

This is anecdotal evidence, as your Google search is heavily influenced by your search history and location. My Google search returns much more website revering to the country not island. That's why I referenced Google Trends data in my previous comment. There are much more Google searches linked to the country/state than island globally over last 5 years (max time period). TomÓCiarraí (talk) 15:54, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

If your argument is that people looking for the state are getting lost, that's an argument for making 'Ireland' a disambiguation page like Britain surely? Then they can choose the state or the island from there.

But most of the arguments put forward seem more about emotion / nationhood which is not a good basis on which to make the change. Dgp4004 (talk) 15:59, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Apologies, if my previous comment was not clear. The Google Trends data relates to the number of search results not searches. There are more search results for Ireland that include country or state than island. I also mentioned most organisations globally refer to Ireland as the country not the island. It is incorrect to call these emotional arguments, if you have other evidence or arguments to contrary, please put them forward. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 16:23, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Contrary to what is being claimed here, google trends demonstrates more worldwide searches for the island rather than the country: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=now%201-d&q=%2Fm%2F03rt9,%2Fm%2F012wgb&hl=en-US. DrKay (talk) 19:00, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't think there's any information to be extracted from that page, its unclear exactly how they determine which is which. All the related queries for both refer to the country and the graph is almost the exact same as well, the difference is minor D1551D3N7 (talk) 19:20, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

can we add a closer up map on the infocard for Ireland?

possibly with county and other distinctions? since there's only the map of the globe and Europe in general. Qhacim (talk) 15:23, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

History section too recent?

I've noticed that the History section begins from 1800s. Usually the History section of other sovereign states starts from ancient or even prehistoric eras. Probably some sections from History of Ireland could be used to enhance this area? Maybe sum up a few important bits into new sections under History in this article? Bly000 (talk) 13:01, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

@Bly000: This article already contains some history about the period preceding its subject's existence. There were other entities before the Republic whose articles each have their own similar history sections covering the periods of their extent and a period before that; e.g. Kingdom of Ireland, Lordship of Ireland. I see no advantage in extending this article's history section to duplicate information already given elsewhere (and linked to from here). Bazza 7 (talk) 14:57, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Isn't this the point of History section to at least mention these periods with links to them? And anyone wanting to check more info would visit these pages? Kingdom of Ireland and Lordship of Ireland are not linked in the article at all. As a reader I would expect some at least short mention of these eras in the History section. I'm not talking about copying the pages, just a sum as it usually happens with other countries' History section Bly000 (talk) 15:24, 1 June 2024 (UTC)